17 replies to this topic

[Diogenes]

So Shade Vortex's Let's Play topic got locked, and I take issue with the reasoning for it.

Here's what Sean posted when he locked it:

About LPs, I'm pretty sure they're technically not allowed because they more or less count as advertising. I'm going to lock this, but feel free to post them in your signature.

Also, since this is in the showcase forum, it also doesn't count since you didn't make the videos themselves, just the commentary.

So the two main points are that it's advertising, and that it's not his own content.

Regarding it being advertising...well in a sense, yes, but so's linking to your DeviantArt page in your artwork topic, and there's nothing wrong that that, right? The rule against advertising, as I see it, is to prevent people from just dropping a link to their DeviantArt/Youtube/whatever page telling people to go there and then abandoning the topic. That's not what Shade was doing; he posted links to his previous work, and planned to post links to videos as he made them. I see no reason why this is "advertising" any more than any Showcase post that links to some off-site repository.

Regarding it not being his own content...he plays the game, he records it, he commentates it, he edits it together. How is that not his own content? The game itself isn't his, but his playthrough is his own, and obviously his commentary is his own as well. And we've got topics for game reviews and abridged serieses going which are made up of footage from games and shows, and there doesn't appear to be any problem with them.

So, what am I missing? As far as I can tell there's no reason LPs shouldn't be allowed.

[Carbo]

The crux of the matter regarding both the Sonic Showcase and Miscellaneous Works is it sells itself under it's subtitle as a place to showcase artistic talent. In Sean's defense, there isn't much of that to be found in an LP, and you'll find that by principle the regulations that go down in the Sonic Showcase pertain to the same levels of content spanning an area like say, deviantArt, which wouldn't allow things as LPs to be submitted, even if those are mostly for copyright reasons specifically.

I should mention that the staff member Shade refers to in his opening post is me, as he had asked this on an earlier occasion. There was a report earlier about this topic and I was reluctant to do anything about this as the line that blurs the artistic merit of an LP is relatively vague and something I'm not sure we've ever had set in stone, but a staff member can feel free to correct me on that one.

I can't speak for everyone on the team and this issue of handling these things have always been somewhat trivial to reconsider on a larger scale, so if the staff team wants to voice their opinion on the matter, consider me mostly indifferent towards the issue, if not albeit supporting Sean's decision for reasons stated in the first paragraph. As for the comparison of doing an abridged series, I really see this example of being albeit more justified when an abridged series holds artistic merit if only from a script writing and story telling point, something which LPs, most of the time, don't contain.

[Hogfather]

Short responce to the OP:

I agree... but...

Long responce:

I think that the whole case of it being advertising is completely wrong. Theres no difference at all between that and someone linking an image thats on their DA page, or to put it another way.

There is no difference in terms of how the content was being hosted from say all the music stuff thats on there.

Whats the difference between how the locked topics content is hosted and displayed on SSMB. Over this one? You could argue that whilst the later topic has the video embedded, he does have a bit of a problem with the limitations on how many vids can be displayed. So with regards to it being advertising, I think thats totally wrong.

Whilst the commentary on a lets play is that of the person doing it, there is I think a very strong argument that considering how part of the CP is supposed to be about getting feedback, you could go down the road of comedic feedback, or even things like how informative he was being or just general voice performance work.

But as for the bulk of the content, it is someone playing a videogame. I guess thats why it got locked.

As for the argument, 'he edited the video' if that is the case, then could you not allow any video on there? If that was the case what would be stopping me from bunging up my unboxing/reviews on there? Whilst I'm trying to make them more like 'shows' that just 'a review' I doubt in their current form they could be go into the CP as it stands right now just because it doesn't really fit in with it, even if I did make, direct, star in the video.

Unless of course we get a 'Youtube channel forum?'

I can understand why it was locked, but I think the reason for why it was locked wasn't the right one.


Edit: Or to put it another way, if you allow Lets Plays for the reasons you give... you also allow youtube poops.

[Diogenes]

The crux of the matter regarding both the Sonic Showcase and Miscellaneous Works is it sells itself under it's subtitle as a place to showcase artistic talent.

While I'd hesitate to call even the best LPs artistic, I would certainly consider them a creative work, as it's meant to entertain people. And if creative works don't fall under the boundaries of the Showcase, I think a place should be made for them.

But as for the bulk of the content, it is someone playing a videogame. I guess thats why it got locked.

MST3K is mostly just a bunch of guys watching a movie. Didn't stop it from being a cult classic.

As for the argument, 'he edited the video' if that is the case, then could you not allow any video on there? If that was the case what would be stopping me from bunging up my unboxing/reviews on there?

Nothing, and I don't really see any reason to stop you.

Edit: Or to put it another way, if you allow Lets Plays for the reasons you give... you also allow youtube poops.

And to that I say...ok. I certainly don't have to like the work, or compare it to some standard of artiness, for it to be a valid creative work.

[Hogfather]

MST3K is mostly just a bunch of guys watching a movie. Didn't stop it from being a cult classic.

The what?

Nothing, and I don't really see any reason to stop you.

Besides my common sense telling me that they don't fit in there since they're mostly reviews?

Like I said, whilst I'm trying to turn them more into shows, they just wouldn't fit in there at all which is why I tend to bung them in the market place when it's appropriate.

[Flyboy Fox]

@Carbo - actually, I believe the staffer he referred to in his post was in fact me, as he asked me about this yesterday and I did indeed tell him that I wasn't sure if they'd be allowed.

I'm personally inclined to disagree with the lock, myself, as I see nothing uncreative about the time and effort put into a Let's Play video, but I don't have authority to bend the rules =P

My personal feeling about it stems from my own desire to post my work in a topic, which is also thwarted by the current rules. In my case, I don't have an artistic bone in my body, but I love making banners, avatars, buttons and signatures using official art. I take a small amount of personal offence at being told that my stuff isn't creative because I haven't drawn the images myself... it takes time, effort, skill and creativity to use existing art to create graphics, just as it takes time, effort, skill and creativity to draw/write about existing characters. Given that none of us actually invented Sonic and friends or their vast environments, I don't see that any fanwork (provided that sources are credited and other fans' work not used without permission) should be excluded from the showcase.

But that's just my two cents as a disgruntled graphics artist who can't draw ;_;

[Shade Vortex]

Indeed, it was Flyboy Fox (though I had asked Carbo about it once, too). I probably should have stated this. And I actually find myself agreeing with Diogenes, but of course, everything is up to the staff, and their decisions are final. Just because my views are different, it doesn't mean that I can bend the rules, nor can the staff. I respect the decision.

Besides, at least I'm allowed to advertise them in my signature still, if I understand correctly. It's not like they're utterly banned from even being mentioned, or anything.

[Way Past Cool]

As an artist I thought I'd throw my two small denominational coins into the discussion. I'd have to agree that if you allow fanart and fanficion, then you can't really ban Let's Play videos on the grounds that they're not creative-- it's all using borrowed source material. This doesn't mean that things along the lines of You Tube Poop's would or should be allowed, obviously the content in most of those breaks forum rules in general. But I'd be a hypocrite to say that it takes less of a creative eye to produce other types of media like videos, commentary and graphics. After all, people in the real world get paid to create those things in the same way people are paid to create art and writing.

To me, the forum viewer is the one who decides the value of the creative material. Let the viewer judge whether a Let's Play or a graphic is creative. That's really the point of it being posted in a forum setting -- to generate discussion and provide the creator with feedback. I see no real difference here.

[Carbo]

As an artist I thought I'd throw my two small denominational coins into the discussion. I'd have to agree that if you allow fanart and fanficion, then you can't really ban Let's Play videos on the grounds that they're not creative-- it's all using borrowed source material. This doesn't mean that things along the lines of You Tube Poop's would or should be allowed, obviously the content in most of those breaks forum rules in general. But I'd be a hypocrite to say that it takes less of a creative eye to produce other types of media like videos, commentary and graphics. After all, people in the real world get paid to create those things in the same way people are paid to create art and writing.

To me, the forum viewer is the one who decides the value of the creative material. Let the viewer judge whether a Let's Play or a graphic is creative. That's really the point of it being posted in a forum setting -- to generate discussion and provide the creator with feedback. I see no real difference here.

I'd like to think that this is probably the most well-addressed point presented in favor of allowing LPs to be a thing when it comes to favoring creativity above all else. More importantly though it merely comes down to a matter of trying to find a proper compromise between exactly what specifics these types of videos encompass, since otherwise we end up in a situation where, much like Diogenes mentioned in the opening post, the way a medium is presented has to be taken into consideration when compared to something else and whether it's up to some sort of set standard we have.

I'm kind of curious though because for the longest time, the Sonic Showcase was by-and-large a product that was mostly kept up by the now seemingly limbo'd SSN staff, and it seems like literally none of their original regulators spend time here anymore, which disappoints me a bit cause I'd like to hear what they have to say on the matter.

[Flyboy Fox]

I, too, would have been interested in what the SSN staff - who used to moderate that section of the forum exclusively - have to say about it. I remember, at the time, being at odds with the very strong criticism of any submissions that used existing official material in any capacity, but I'm not sure if that was a view reached by consensus or simply the view of whoever penned the rules at the time.

[Sean]

Admittedly my first reason for locking it being advertising was due to me not noticing that it was in the showcase forum, and then neglecting to change my mind once I did. It was a rushed conclusion for me to jump to and it didn't cross my mind for me to really correct it. The comparison to linking to a DA is a good one so I admit it was a mistake.

As for the second I pretty much stand by it. I enjoy LPs so I have nothing against them, but I liken its status in the subforum to something like posting sprite edits. However if the rest of the staff can come to a consensus about whether we should allow LPs then I'll change my objective stance on them, and I wouldn't mind going back on my locking Shade's topic.

[Flyboy Fox]

I think that anything that shows effort and creativity (i.e., does something WITH existing content rather than merely copying it or recolouring it) should be permitted in the showcase. If the resulting piece adds something new or different from what the creator started with and looks like effort was taken to do so, I think that's really the only criteria that needs to be abided by (aside from obvious things such as permissions and appropriate content).

So, by that standard, remixing a Sonic song, making a play-through video with commentary, a music video, a collection of avatars or signature banners... all would be equally valid and acceptable as long as they showed effort and the creator's obvious input on the outcome to make it different than what they began with.

I might make a topic, myself, in the Showcase forum with some of my avatar and signature 'creations' and see if folk see them as rip-offs because they use existing official art or as creations in their own right.

[eXtaticus]

Try filling 100 hours of RPG with consistently decent, original, interesting and non-tangential commentary and maybe LP topics might one day garner some kind of attention that doesn't involve locking - but as it stands, there's not really any reason why you can't just fill a short ten minute review with the best bits of your recorded playthrough spliced together and running alongside your voice, as opposed to waffling and droning dully for uninteresting hour after uninteresting hour add repetition and ad nauseam about a game that most non-anorak members of your audience will have stopped caring about after the first couple of videos; unless you're looking purely for gameplay footage, (in which case, you don't need a commentary) then reviews are a far more talent-requiring, efficient and artistic method of describing a game and your opinion on it. Let's Plays are basically useless for anything other than view-whoring.

[Wolfy]

Kinda the point aside, I wouldn't mind having the Showcase more opened up for rules to allow any of this without question honestly. Why? Because we all know the Showcase doesn't get that much attention, =(. Maybe if everyone felt like they could go there, more people would get the artist love they deserve. But what about countless things that many of us wouldn't consider an effort or very good? They won't really last anyways. People who post things that don't grab the viewer with an artistic catch always gets drowned to the fearsome Page 2 anyways. People who do really make outstanding work will still ride the top of the page anyway. It's just now that if we could get more people to go there, the people who do pretty well but don't get as many views might be able to thrive a bit better.

It's just my opinion, and it could be a pretty risky one at that I guess. It'd just help not blurring these creative lines.

[Discoid]

I remember advertising my Let's Play for Sonic 06 on the SEGA Forums about a year ago, and it was great. I'd post updates with new videos whenever I uploaded them, and the commentary was often in touch with the forums anyway. The posts were kind of like YouTube comments but with smart(er) people, and it actually led to plenty of discussion about the game.

I'll see if I can dig it up, being banned from the forum doesn't really make things easier. xD

Edit: Found it. Whether you like the LP or not doesn't really make a difference, honestly. It's a topic that stayed alive for 60 pages (that is, until I beat the game) and was just an easy-going, friendly thing. That and the fact that the OP has over 30 likes by plenty of older members (some of which have been here for years) and a mod tells me that it might as well be allowed. Forums aren't democracies, no, but they're nothing without their members, and if a bunch of members band together for something that has no real negatives other than subjectively "being pointless", I think changing it would be the right thing to do.

Edited by Dissident, 09 September 2011 - 11:26 AM.

[Teeks]

Whether you like Let's Plays or not, it's very likely somebody out there does enjoy them. I watch Let's Plays, I make Let's Plays and I for one am a big fan of them. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed in any capacity. A separate forum for videos and whatnot might solve the problem, but I don't see the harm in letting them be there. If somebody wants to watch them, great. If they don't, then they just move along without even opening the topic. It's the same as anything else posted on the board.

I posted a topic of my video reviews of several Sonic games I've been doing and all it is is footage of me playing the game with my review spliced in over it. I don't see how that's any different than a Let's Play using game footage and commentary. And my topic isn't locked. I'm not saying to go out and lock my topic, but it seems unfair to lock one when others exist in a similar fashion.

[Carbo]

A separate forum for videos and whatnot might solve the problem, but I don't see the harm in letting them be there. If somebody wants to watch them, great. If they don't, then they just move along without even opening the topic. It's the same as anything else posted on the board.

Actually, the Miscellaneous Works section does cover videos, and another subsection is not going to happen for the same reasons we ruled against the suggestion of a Media Forum. It's slightly abundant, especially when the Sonic Showcase, mostly the Miscellaneous Works section, isn't exactly the most populated or fairly administered section of the site to begin with. As much as people can support the idea of adding a section for making your own videos, there's the deliberate question of who would actually use it. So if Let's Plays is to be allowed, it's staying in that section. The problem was never that it was videos being submitted, the rules were just incredibly vague as to what they pertain.


Anyway we're debating a bit on the issue so we'll see if we can come up with some sort of consensus soon. When I say "debating the issue", I'm talking about coupling it up with some general Rule Revisions for that section. Midst some other site affairs it's not something that right now rests as our top priority and considering such it might be sooner or later we figure something out depending on the grand scheme of things, but none of us seem to be against LPs of all things so I don't think it's going to be much of a problem.

[Remz]

I don't think let's plays are artistic in the slightest and I do think they're pretty much the bottom of the barrel, creativity wise, as far as video production goes. You cannot get any drying, apart from say videoblogging when it comes to boring, bland content created mostly to fuel the ego of is creator. To be honest I think the current Youtube format of one person playing a game (usually one that isn't even inherently interesting, or is popular anyway) and blabbing about it, misses much of the point.


Having said that, when forums do group let's plays (ie: the granddaddy LP Boatmurdered. http://lparchive.org...d/Introduction/) They're quite fun.

Not artistic. But a fun collaborative effort to enjoy a game.