75 replies to this topic

[Chaos Walker]

They all sit down around the table. Here assembled are the greatest minds in all of Sonic team. The question is raised: "What do they want?" From somewhere it is said, "Pinball mechanics and momentum platforming!" Another voice speaks up, "Speedy gameplay!" Still more join in, shouting "Exploration and replay value!", and "Non-linear levels!" A clamor rises as everyone stands up and speaks thier mind. There is no consensus as to which are most important. The end.

What sort of physical properties and move set are necesary for Sonic to run full tilt one moment, and momentum platform the next? Level design certainly allows for both to be included, and I hear many say that ideally both would be implimented without being seperate gameplays, or cheating by switching to 2D.

The Topic: How does Sonic himself need to be designed in order for both high speed and momentum platforming gameplay to be possible without changeing control schemes or dimensions?

Edited by Chaos Walker, 13 September 2011 - 11:59 PM.

[Diogenes]

Genesis games did it.

...I want to say more than that, but that pretty much solves the problem by itself, doesn't it?

[Soniman]

Sonic Adventure gameplay

Restore, refine, and and redesign

[Nepenthe]

What exactly is "momentum platforming?" Platforming that facilitates the gathering of momentum or momentum that carries you through certain obstacles? The former goes hand in hand with speed but is something we arguably haven't had before in any meaningful sense. We need something close to Parkour, multi-purpose obstacles that can be traversed in efficient ways. A wall shouldn't just block you or be a set-piece to run on: It should be both, and it should be able to be climbed, depending on where you want to go and how you want to get there.

The latter is merely hills, loops, inclines, breakable walls and things, none of which are platforming.

[Inferno]

I have no idea what the topic title has to do with the topic. :r

[Chibinuva]

While I would agree that the classic games were good (and even more so the classic levels of Generations,) I like pretty much all the gameplay of different Sonic games. I'd really love a Parkour game though, preferably since it would allow Sonic us to platform at high speeds without using boost, jumping, and homing attack all the time. And I don't get the topic either.

[MrROBOTO1988]

the topic is just goofy people, it's not SUPPOSED to relate to anything

and I don't get the recent trend in the last few days on topics about how Sonic should incorporate parkour. when I think parkour, I think the famous youtube videos, Mirror's Edge, and that opening scene in Casino Royale. While yes, it is incredibly badass, it's not at all Sonic. Parkour folks use obstacles to do sweet muthafuckin' things, and sure, they can jump off of tall jumps, and they can wall jump and what not, but it ain't even CLOSE to looking like a Sonic similarity. So I'm all about not having parkour in a Sonic game, i just don't get it.

What sort of physical properties and move set are necesary for Sonic to run full tilt one moment, and momentum platform the next? Level design certainly allows for both to be included, and I hear many say that ideally both would be implimented without being seperate gameplays, or cheating by switching to 2D.

Genesis games did it.

...I want to say more than that, but that pretty much solves the problem by itself, doesn't it?

K, so I usually find myself disagreeing with Diogenes, but he pretty much sums it up here. Genesis games did indeed do what you are asking about.

And by the way, since when did this fanbase inherently call it "cheating" to switch to a 2D perspective???!!?@?#$!@#?$!??????!#?@$@#%? Cuz I always thought people loved this aspect and considered it to be one of the aspects that made daytime unleashed gameplay and subsequently colors gameplay to be pretty awesome.

sooooo yeah, this makes me want to rant about this fucked up fanbase. When a new Sonic game comes out, people really like it. Then over the years, the fanbase complains about it more than they praise it. examples? Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sonic Advance 2 and 3, Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Colors, and probably more. All of these games are complained about now more than they are praised, but when they came out, I remember people really liking them. so what the flying fuck??

[Nepenthe]

People advocate Parkour-like gameplay because it deals with conquering the landscape in as efficient and quickly a way as you personally see possible, which is pretty much what people say Sonic is about at its core- an actual marriage of speed and platforming. However, it's never been done in any satisfactory or meaningful way. The classics were great games for sticking with a simple core gameplay and perfecting it, but the marriage people talk about is an arguable misnomer; the fastest bits you're subjected to are separated from the intricate platforming because it has to be. You simply can't platform traditionally at high speeds, and this has always been the case. For this marriage to have any real meaning beyond further romanticizing the classics, a different type of gameplay must be enacted.

[Chaos Walker]

Genesis games did it.

Sonic Adventure gameplay

Restore, refine, and and redesign

And these did wonderfuly in terms of platforming, yes. But the speed? Dash pad/spring after dash pad/spring is fake speed. If Unleashed did one thing completely right, it was putting us in control of Sonic at his greatest speeds. Granted we don't need to be exactly THAT fast, we still want to be in control of Sonic when he is "showing off." That means a whale chase that doesn't kill you for touching buttons. And yes, the Genesis games did it that way too. All the fast parts of Chemical plant, hydrocity, flying battery, and the other really fast levels used boosters to make things fast. Of course emphasizing platforming over speed is no problem at all for the quality of the game. Go see Mario for evidence of that.

What exactly is "momentum platforming?" Platforming that facilitates the gathering of momentum or momentum that carries you through certain obstacles? The former goes hand in hand with speed but is something we arguably haven't had before in any meaningful sense

Speed is the necesary feul for momentum platforming. That is why he was made with both abilities at once. Sonic CD did it best in terms of forcing you to use speed to conquer obsticals.

I have no idea what the topic title has to do with the topic. :r

Attention grabber. I hate when people ignore my topics. Especially when I'm not done discussing.

and I don't get the recent trend in the last few days on topics about how Sonic should incorporate parkour. when I think parkour, I think the famous youtube videos, Mirror's Edge, and that opening scene in Casino Royale. While yes, it is incredibly badass, it's not at all Sonic.

People's favorite example is the Sonic CD opening. I'm a little hesitant on parkour myself, but it does seem like a litteral example of high speed platforming. My only gripe with that is it might push out the momentum based platforming. The level could be desgined for Sonic to spin up the wall, or it could be designed for him to jump onto off another wall and grab the edge.

And by the way, since when did this fanbase inherently call it "cheating" to switch to a 2D perspective???!!?@?#$!@#?$!??????!#?@$@#%?

I think it is just me. They are avoiding the issue by simply seperating the speed and platforming. It's like tearing Sonic in half and switching them depending... on which type of... level... wait... that's the next game, isn't it? You shouldn't have to segregate it like that. Sonic should be able to do both, without having to run with an alter ego.
Like I said though, it's mostly just me. It bothers me so much that they havn't found one gameplay style that can handle both, and so they are staying with this shortcut.

You simply can't platform traditionally at high speeds, and this has always been the case. For this marriage to have any real meaning beyond further romanticizing the classics, a different type of gameplay must be enacted.

Exactly, and to be honest, I don't want anything new. Sonic doesn't have to be able to do both at once, otherwise he starts being Sonic the ninja. What I am looking for is a single gameplay style that can do one at one moment, and then another a minute later. Platform now, speed later, platform again, but this time no cheating with dash pads. The reality is, speed is EASIER to make controlable in 3D, since you can see what is comming. So 3D has the advantage of letting you easily control Sonic at highspeeds.

Edited by Chaos Walker, 14 September 2011 - 04:39 AM.

[Diogenes]

Parkour folks use obstacles to do sweet muthafuckin' things, and sure, they can jump off of tall jumps, and they can wall jump and what not, but it ain't even CLOSE to looking like a Sonic similarity.

I don't think anyone's advocating replacing everything "Sonic" with parkour stuff, but of merging it in with more traditionally Sonic actions/gameplay, to better bridge the gap between platforming and speed. Don't discount it simply because it's not how Sonic moves now; there was a time when Sonic didn't boost, quick step, drift, stomp, hell when he didn't even homing attack, yet these things became natural-looking once they were done and it had some time to settle in.

And by the way, since when did this fanbase inherently call it "cheating" to switch to a 2D perspective???!!?@?#$!@#?$!??????!#?@$@#%? Cuz I always thought people loved this aspect and considered it to be one of the aspects that made daytime unleashed gameplay and subsequently colors gameplay to be pretty awesome.

Look at the 3D sections in Colors. Notice how they're shit? That's the problem. Moderately good 2D sections are being used as an excuse to let the 3D rot. Rather than making a game where the 3D sections are solid enough to support the game by themselves, they halfass it and rely on the 2D to hold it up.

sooooo yeah, this makes me want to rant about this fucked up fanbase. When a new Sonic game comes out, people really like it. Then over the years, the fanbase complains about it more than they praise it.

People's opinions change over time. When you first get a game it's all shiny and new and you're too busy enjoying all the new to see some of the problems with it. But the more you play it, the less "new" it becomes, and you start to see the problems you missed.

The first time you boost along the Great Wall of China, it's a thrill. The 10th time, it's commonplace. The 20th time, you start wondering if you really have to hold the stick as you turn...ah, looks like you don't. That's pretty shitty, game.

And yes, the Genesis games did it that way too. All the fast parts of Chemical plant, hydrocity, flying battery, and the other really fast levels used boosters to make things fast.

No they didn't. Not if you had any understanding of the rolling, anyway.

[Nepenthe]

Speed is the necesary feul for momentum platforming. That is why he was made with both abilities at once. Sonic CD did it best in terms of forcing you to use speed to conquer obsticals.

This doesn't provide any distinction from regular platforming. Mario, Crash, Donkey Kong, et. all have encountered obstacles where the only way to traverse them is to get a running start or use a special ability that makes them jump farther and faster, e.g. use greater momentum to carry them through. So what makes Sonic so different in this regard?

Exactly, and to be honest, I don't want anything new. Sonic doesn't have to be able to do both at once, otherwise he starts being Sonic the ninja. What I am looking for is a single gameplay style that can do one at one moment, and then another a minute later. Platform now, speed later, platform again, but this time no cheating with dash pads. The reality is, speed is EASIER to make controlable in 3D, since you can see what is comming. So 3D has the advantage of letting you easily control Sonic at highspeeds.

I don't really understand. Every traditional Sonic game has done this, dash pads or no dash pads, so what exactly are you looking for beyond what Sega has already done and continues to do?

[Voyant]

Third Time I have used this post I made a long time ago....

A lot of people would love to have this. I would too as a layout, but Imagine allll that land that you can run on. Now fill that land with level design, traps, platforms, details, obstacles that are Sonic Like.

Are you having a hard time doing it?

Cause I sure am and I'm a pretty imaginative person. How do you lay out obstacles and traps in a land this big where it becomes relative to what to what your doing? And how do you fill in this space while still giving a sense of Point A to Point B? How do you create levels?

But lets say you DO figure such things out, how many of these same landscapes with slightly different level design that stretch for MILES would it take for Sonic to go through while still giving people a sense of speed and length, while making things look pretty enough for people to not go "Pshh dem ghrphix suck dude".. How bland would environments need to be so it doesn't fry the system? Old Sonic never GAVE you this much elbow room..,sure you could go left gotcha, but still.

I wish I could run Sonic in surreal setting of the size of New York with Sonic like obstacles and looks, I dream of that, but the only way that's happen if the entire game was just based off my dream level and no one going to be satisfied with 1 level. Consoles don't have the POWER to do such feats to provide such a WIDE terrain to be explored at high speeds and then make 6-8 of them again. Let alone how to keep the game feeling Sonic like...or at all even a platformer.

Unleashed could use some wider terrain sure...but if a level like Eggmanland with its hugeness starts making the frame rate drop rendering ALL that terrain...what makes you think that having a game like I mentioned is going to be AT ALL stable enough to be playable.

Even if ST gets better with their tech (like they are with with Generations) were not going to see any large level design like that. Not for a "speedy" platfromer like Sonic...at least not this gen.

Its all easier said than done...seriously people need to do some research in gaming and level design.

[Chaos Walker]

No they didn't. Not if you had any understanding of the rolling, anyway

Oh yeah, rolling. That alone made Ice cap go pretty fast in some places, and gave me some rediculous air. I'd like to see levels that take advantage of that. Still, during the parts where the designers meant for the game to go fast they employed the boosters, or put some very convenient steep hills. I prefer the hills though, as it's actually using the physics of the character.

This doesn't provide any distinction from regular platforming. Mario, Crash, Donkey Kong, et. all have encountered obstacles where the only way to traverse them is to get a running start or use a special ability that makes them jump farther and faster, e.g. use greater momentum to carry them through. So what makes Sonic so different in this regard?

In short, just look at the level design and you'll notice that Sonic is capable of having alot more ground time than Mario. This is because Jumping is not his only means of clearing obsticals. Curved surfaces are key to making momentum platforming unique. If it's not unique, then I don't know why Oshima spent the time drawing up examples specificaly to show that Sonic was supposed to roll through the terrain.

I don't really understand. Every traditional Sonic game has done this, dash pads or no dash pads, so what exactly are you looking for beyond what Sega has already done and continues to do?

Every? Cuz last time I checked, 3D has only been doing one at a time. Sonic Adventure on had to rely on dashpads for speed sections, and now that we are post Sonic Unleashed platforming only happens in 2D.

Third Time I have used this post I made a long time ago....

To be honest... no. I don't want that. My philosophy is that the level should be designed to fit the character's movset and physical properties so that the player is constantly taking advantage of the fact that they are in controll of the virtual avatar. It would be fun to watch, but playing it? I don't know. Impossible? No. I can see it, but... Sonic would have to handle differently, and would be far from his platforming roots. Bad? I'm not sure. Metroid did well as an FPS with proper tweaks, but Sonic hasn't done so while well running fast enough to conquer that terrrain (I mean with the boost). I suppose the difference is that tech limitation you mentioned, as well as budget. It would have to be much more open that currently linear levels. Still, I hold a hand crafted, planned out intricate level is the way to go.

Edited by Chaos Walker, 14 September 2011 - 06:19 AM.

[Inferno]

Attention grabber. I hate when people ignore my topics. Especially when I'm not done discussing.

Well to be honest, whenever I see an annoying or confusing topic title, it only makes me want to ignore the topic moar because I subconsciously think of it as spam. After a seeing a couple of these in this section already, this is the one that I just broke down and clicked on. And this topic seems very similar to the Union of two worlds- etc etc thread.

But by all means, do carry on though everyone. Just some rambling over here is all.

Edited by Inferno, 14 September 2011 - 11:19 AM.

[MrROBOTO1988]

I don't think anyone's advocating replacing everything "Sonic" with parkour stuff, but of merging it in with more traditionally Sonic actions/gameplay, to better bridge the gap between platforming and speed. Don't discount it simply because it's not how Sonic moves now; there was a time when Sonic didn't boost, quick step, drift, stomp, hell when he didn't even homing attack, yet these things became natural-looking once they were done and it had some time to settle in.

I like you in this topic. You are absolutely right. But for discussion purposes, I currently feel parkour elements would run the risk of making the game feel more like a Prince of Persia/Assassin's Creed game in it's platforming and less like what we are used to from Sonic. But you are still right.

Look at the 3D sections in Colors. Notice how they're shit? That's the problem. Moderately good 2D sections are being used as an excuse to let the 3D rot. Rather than making a game where the 3D sections are solid enough to support the game by themselves, they halfass it and rely on the 2D to hold it up.

Also a very good point. I know you're not the biggest Unleashed fan, but would you perhaps say that Unleashed 3D sections were solid enough to support the game by themselves? Because that game didn't have 2D transitions neeeeeaaaarly as much as Colors. And there were some legitimate 3D platforming sections in that game too (Chun-nan comes to mind)

People's opinions change over time. When you first get a game it's all shiny and new and you're too busy enjoying all the new to see some of the problems with it. But the more you play it, the less "new" it becomes, and you start to see the problems you missed.

The first time you boost along the Great Wall of China, it's a thrill. The 10th time, it's commonplace. The 20th time, you start wondering if you really have to hold the stick as you turn...ah, looks like you don't. That's pretty shitty, game.

I suppose this is also true. Yet it can be infuriating to me, and seems very hypocritical at first.

Thank you sir for some good discussion thus far.

[midori]

This kind of topic again? And I thought it would be about something different. This thread doesn't deserve the title.
But IMO SA was pretty good in these terms. In some places you had the illusion of some freedom, in other you were speeding down a skyscraper and practically only moving left and right to dodge stuff. You could just chill on the beach and wander about aimlessly or go to Speed Highway and run a little. The route you were going through didn't feel so enforced.
...And the chao gardens. My precious.

[Chibinuva]

Exactly, and to be honest, I don't want anything new. Sonic doesn't have to be able to do both at once, otherwise he starts being Sonic the ninja.

To be honest I would actually like this. Or perhaps if we can get people to stop hating Shadow they could make a Shadow the Hedehog 2 *gets shot* but instead of making the focus on guns and vehicles like the original one they could make the focus more on Parkour. After all, he is a G.U.N. agent as shown in Sonic 06, which also showed all these different tests he had to take. Let's take away the focus on his technology-based skills, and showcase the physical skills of the Ultimate Lifeform (though maybe a few vehicles like in 06 would be okay, but only a couple since the main focus would be on his strength and speed.) Who's with me on this?

[Diogenes]

But for discussion purposes, I currently feel parkour elements would run the risk of making the game feel more like a Prince of Persia/Assassin's Creed game in it's platforming and less like what we are used to from Sonic.

It's all in how you handle it. If they just replicate that sort of gameplay, of distinct and separate actions and of only human-possible actions, then yeah. But if you consider how a superhumanly fast and agile character could use those sort of abilities, and have a continuance of momentum rather than resetting at every handhold, it can still feel like Sonic.

Honestly the standard parkour-inspired gameplay I've seen reminds me a lot of what I don't like in Unleashed, only you can usually pause between actions rather than constantly rushing towards them. Simply inserting Sonic into a PoP game would not do the series any favors...

I know you're not the biggest Unleashed fan, but would you perhaps say that Unleashed 3D sections were solid enough to support the game by themselves?

Nope. I used Colors because it's clearly got the worst 3D sections of the Unleashed style games, but I don't think any of them are good enough.

And there were some legitimate 3D platforming sections in that game too (Chun-nan comes to mind)

Chun-nan's platforming is short, incredibly simple, and not very Sonicy. It's the bare minimum, and that it's one of the best examples the game has does not reflect well on it.

[Chaos Walker]

This kind of topic again?

Yeah, I'm condensing the topic more now. I can't have people running off on random tangents, or I'll never figure this out. Since I came back I've made several discoveries about how Sonic is working right now that I wouldn't have on my own. The key is to keep asking the right questions, and make sure I coax out unique answers.

It's all in how you handle it. If they just replicate that sort of gameplay, of distinct and separate actions and of only human-possible actions, then yeah. But if you consider how a superhumanly fast and agile character could use those sort of abilities, and have a continuance of momentum rather than resetting at every handhold, it can still feel like Sonic.

Perhaps my only problem with parkour is the asthetic aspect to parkour. Sonic shouldn't have to employ move to do stuff he could allready do by running up a wall and bounding in between them. Perhaps if Sonic did some more spinning during what would normaly just be wall jumps, ledge grabs, etc. Watching the Sonic CD opening, it's doesn't look too odd so long as he is doing a mixture of parkour, running, and spinning. It's when one aspect disapears that we get problems. The question is, to what extent would parkour be implimented? What moves would he have? At what point are we over complicating the controls? My 9 year old sisters can't handle the controls of Sonic Colors. I remember when Sonic used to only need 1 or 2 buttons to do everything. Simplicity isn't absolutely necesary, but it can help.

Edited by Chaos Walker, 14 September 2011 - 04:41 PM.

[MrROBOTO1988]

Chun-nan's platforming is short, incredibly simple, and not very Sonicy. It's the bare minimum, and that it's one of the best examples the game has does not reflect well on it.

I certainly won't deny that it's short. And yes, it's simple, but isn't platforming at its heart incredibly simple? I mean what kind of complex platforming are you looking for in a Sonic game? And on that note, what inherently makes certain platforming to be "Sonicy?" Because I can think of several several several examples from the beloved Genesis games of very simple platforming, lots of which even have Sonic not using momentum or speed at all, but simply jumping from a platform to the next.