70 replies to this topic

[Azure Yakuzu]

I don't hate SATAM Robotnik either, I respect him as an individual and the fact that he was indeed able to take over the planet and is treated as a much more serious and personal threat because of how much impact he's had on the main character's lives; I just find him incredibly dull and boring as a both a villain and a character.

Well the first Sonic game I played was Sonic Adventure 2, and I never got the feeling that Robotnik was meant to be a goofy villain in that game. When I played the "Genesis" games which have no voice acting I saw Robotnik as a pretty evil character especially in Sonic 3&Knuckles in which he sets a whole forest on fire and he shocks Knuckles in the Hidden Place. Plus he doesn't care that Angel Island falling could kill alot of people.

After the "Genesis" games I then played Sonic Adventure DX and in that game he tries to blow up a whole city.

When I saw Sonic X for the first time I found their verison of Robotnik to be jarring with his goofness and robot sidekicks after I had played the games and read the Archie Sonic comics.

This actually is a good point, up until X, there was real indication that Eggman was that silly of a character other than the subtle hints, and unless you watched the OVA, it was kind of an unconfirmed thing. So if someone was growing up watching SATAM, and played SA2 then Eggman would look like a much more intimidating villain.

[Ice King]

Well the first Sonic game I played was Sonic Adventure 2, and I never got the feeling that Robotnik was meant to be a goofy villain in that game. When I played the "Genesis" games which have no voice acting I saw Robotnik as a pretty evil character especially in Sonic 3&Knuckles in which he sets a whole forest on fire and he shocks Knuckles in the Hidden Place. Plus he doesn't care that Angel Island falling could kill alot of people.

After the "Genesis" games I then played Sonic Adventure DX and in that game he tries to blow up a whole city.

When I saw Sonic X for the first time I found their verison of Robotnik to be jarring with his goofness and robot sidekicks after I had played the games and read the Archie Sonic comics.

Ah, we don't disagree that Sega Eggman is an evil man who's done some really destructive things. We're totally on the same page there.

But we're not talking about morality- We're talking about presentation! Goofiness and evilness are not mutually exclusive. What I'm saying is this.

SatAM Robotnik commits acts of planetary evil with a stoic serious scowl and an all-business approach.

Sega Eggman also commits some truly vile deeds, but does so with all the bounding glee of a giddy schoolboy. He has fun while committing his evil, and themes his inventions and weapons after jovial, cartoonish themes. Again, I point you to the Badniks, the Death Egg, most of his Eggmobile weapons, his myriads of amusement parks, etc.

I wasn't arguing with you about Eggman's morality. I was arguing about his goofiness, which you seem to think is a recent addition to his character. Regardless of how evil you perceive game Eggman, I think his silly personality has always been part of his character, even at his most sinister moments.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Ah, we don't disagree that Sega Eggman is an evil man who's done some really destructive things. We're totally on the same page there.

But we're not talking about morality- We're talking about presentation! Goofiness and evilness are not mutually exclusive. What I'm saying is this.

SatAM Robotnik commits acts of planetary evil with a stoic serious scowl and an all-business approach.

Sega Eggman also commits some truly vile deeds, but does so with all the bounding glee of a giddy schoolboy. He has fun while committing his evil, and themes his inventions and weapons after jovial, cartoonish themes. Again, I point you to the Badniks, the Death Egg, most of his Eggmobile weapons, his myriads of amusement parks, etc.

I wasn't arguing with you about Eggman's morality. I was arguing about his goofiness, which you seem to think is a recent addition to his character. Regardless of how evil you perceive game Eggman, I think his silly personality has always been part of his character, even at his most sinister moments.

I think what he was saying is that, Eggman's silliness was never a major part of his character until recently, even back in the Genesis games, you never really had a feel for Eggman's character. The only forms of media that gave him any character we're SATAM and AOSTH. Even when Eggman began developing a character in the Adventure games, he was nowhere near as over the top and bombastic as he is now(This isn't a bad thing mind you), he was loud and hammy, but mostly presented as a serious threat that needed to be stopped, rather than a fun game for Sonic to play.

[Vampfox]

What I was trying to say is that before Sonic X I never really saw Robotnik as a goofy villain. Maybe it was Deem Bristow's voice acting but he just felt like and sounded like more of a threat in the early games before Sonic X.

[Ice King]

The only forms of media that gave him any character we're SATAM and AOSTH.

Which, interestingly enough, took two opposing aspects of his personality and exaggerated them- AoStH presented an entirely goofy but not-all-that menacing Robotnik, while SatAM presented a decently menacing foe but without the flashy, bombastic nature of the game portrayal.

It's probably no coincidence that I saw AoStH off and on as a kid, and never really saw SatAM until after becoming a fan of the games years later. In its own subtle way, perhaps AoStH predisposed me to preferring campier portrayals of Eggman, much like Darkfox's preferences were- by his own admission- influenced by SatAM. *shrug* It's certainly possible, I'll admit.

I'm not about to suggest that game Eggman is intended to be as silly as his AoStH counterpart though, because he simply isn't. I feel Sega Eggman is very much a serious threat, and is capable of being such while conveying a comical personality at the same time. It's a delicate balance of humor and menace that makes him work as a character.

Edited by Dr. Mechano, 06 November 2011 - 11:13 PM.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I actually thought that Robotnik/Eggman was a clown when I first saw Sonic one being played in a computer store. That misconception seems a lot less baseless in hindsight, as apparently the character was always intended(In the games) to have at least some manner of playfulness to what he was doing.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I think a problem with Sega Eggman is that the plots don't take him that seriously as a villain. I mean the repercussions of Eggman winning are never present, I mean why do we need to beat Eggman? Why do we need to beat him so badly, these are things that the games never really address and he's just really there so Sonic can stop him.

In the Adventure games, the consequences of Eggman winning are very apparent and the games take him seriously as a threat that needs to be stopped at once.

The Unleashed trilogy, the danger factor is mostly absent; The citizens in Unleashed seem mostly apathetic to his actions, and the threat he poses is mostly ignored. In Colors, the game treats it as just another day of stomping Eggman, rather than stopping a mad man from an attempted genocide of an entire race, in Generations the threat the Time Eater poses is most present, but it doesn't really capitalize on why its dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, Eggman is undoubtedly a threatening villain based on his actions from the past three games alone, the problem is that the games and plot don't treat him as one and convey it to the audience.

Edited by Shadic93, 06 November 2011 - 11:37 PM.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I think that people may have gotten used to Sonic saving them over time. There's not much to fear if there's a famous superhero constantly stopping the guy trying to overthrow all the world's governments.

[Vertekins]

Sonic CD's Bad Futures are a pretty good indicator of what would happen if Eggman dominated and what is at stake. Namely a decent future. It says something of Eggman's destruction of the environment when even his own robots can't tolerate the conditions and appear damaged. Imagine what a world like that would spell for living beings.

I'd say Eggmanland in Unleashed also shows what happens when Eggman is allowed to have his own way with no opposition. He built his hell of a theme park right on top of a Gaia Temple!

[Ice King]

Don't get me wrong, Eggman is undoubtedly a threatening villain based on his actions from the past three games alone, the problem is that the games and plot don't treat him as one and convey it to the audience.

I feel like this is less a fault of Eggman and more a fault of the way other characters are written though.

Like you said, the actions Eggman committed in these three games are super-serious in and of themselves. The problem lies with how apathetic the townspeople seem to feel. I disagree that the heroes don't take him seriously though- As in Colors and Unleashed they clearly do.

To be fair, the townspeople in Sonic Adventure seemed more concerned with trivial everyday life issues than Eggman too- Like confessing a crush to a guy at the burger joint, and assorted other subplots. I think the people of Sonic's world are just so confident in the heroes that they're less fazed by evil threats than they used to be. It's not a detriment to Eggman so much as a plus to Sonic.

Sonic CD's Bad Futures are a pretty good indicator of what would happen if Eggman dominated and what is at stake. Namely a decent future. It says something of Eggman's destruction of the environment when even his own robots can't tolerate the conditions and appear damaged.

This is important actually.

It's my belief that the bad futures of Sonic CD are more a result of negligence than intentional destruction. I don't think Eggman wanted to rule a run-down, shabby-looking planet. I think everything breaking down and falling apart is just the natural result of one man trying to rule an entire world all by himself. It's impossible to do effectively, and the result is what the games clearly and vividly portrayed. A future so ruined that not even Eggman or his robots are happy with it (If you'll notice, some of the Badniks even shift to bearing sadder facial expressions in the bad futures).

It's not my view that Eggman just intentionally polluted Little Planet and filled it with broken machinery on purpose, for its own sake. That seems to go against his style, and it makes more sense that the decrepit future was the result of Eggman being unable to effectively rule his planet.

Edited by Dr. Mechano, 06 November 2011 - 11:48 PM.

[Balding Spider]

My favorite version of Eggman So far.

Your favorite version of Eggman is into bondage?

BTW Game Eggman for me!

Edited by Balding Spider, 06 November 2011 - 11:53 PM.

[Vampfox]

Quick question is there that much difference between the Sonic X comic version of Robotnik and the Sonic X anime version?

I notice that alot of fans consider them to be different.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I feel like this is less a fault of Eggman and more a fault of the way other characters are written though.

Like you said, the actions Eggman committed in these three games are super-serious in and of themselves. The problem lies with how apathetic the townspeople seem to feel. I disagree that the heroes don't take him seriously though- As in Colors and Unleashed they clearly do.

To be fair, the townspeople in Sonic Adventure seemed more concerned with trivial everyday life issues than Eggman too- Like confessing a crush to a guy at the burger joint, and assorted other subplots. I think the people of Sonic's world are just so confident in the heroes that they're less fazed by evil threats than they used to be. It's not a detriment to Eggman so much as a plus to Sonic.

Unleashed is a bit better, but not by much. But in Colors they clearly are not taking him seriously, the only scene where Sonic actively attacked Eggman was during the Tails Mind control scene, and that's quickly forgotten. Its scenes like that and Sonic's reaction after he becomes a Werehog, that confirm Eggman is the real deal. A good way to show Eggman is serious is if Sonic starts taking him seriously, then you know shit is about to get real.

Quick question is there that much difference between the Sonic X comic version of Robotnik and the Sonic X anime version?

I notice that alot of fans consider them to be different.

The comic has El Gran Gordo, that is all. but seriously, the Eggman of the comics has a bit more depth in that he's presented as wanting to genuinely want to be viewed as a hero by the public, it makes him more human and easier to relate with as a character. He just wants some praise as a good person.

[Toby Barrett]

Quick question is there that much difference between the Sonic X comic version of Robotnik and the Sonic X anime version?

I notice that alot of fans consider them to be different.

Mechano explained the differences in the opening post.

Edited by Toby Barrett, 07 November 2011 - 12:17 AM.

[Ice King]

Quick question is there that much difference between the Sonic X comic version of Robotnik and the Sonic X anime version?

I notice that alot of fans consider them to be different.

There's a lot of difference, yes. Aside from being separate continuities, there are a lot of personality divergences between the two.

First, let's talk about what's the same between them.

Both versions of X Eggman are incredibly over-the-top mad scientists. Both versions are, at their core, pretty good people. Both versions have a friendship with their minions, and both versions have a respectful enmity with Sonic. (Also, both versions are the best part about their respective series)

The differences are subtle, but noteworthy:

X Anime Eggman is a villain through and through, no matter how many redeeming qualities he may have. His end goal is world domination, and he never- even for a moment- wavers on this front.

X Comic Eggman's motivation differs from X Anime Eggman. While he does want to conquer the world, it's more like a means to an end. His motive is not power, per se, but love and adoration. He wants to be praised, adored, revered by his public- And on several occasions he's been willing to do genuinely good deeds just to feel the rush of public approval, with no ulterior motives. El Gran Gordo started as an evil scheme, but quickly spiralled out of control, with Eggman "becoming the mask," so to speak, and embracing his heroic persona. When Sonic's about to unmask him, Eggman begs him not to, wanting fully to remain a beloved public figure. Sonic, in a moment of kindness, lets him have his wish- Though he'll be pushed back into villainy later.


In one issue, Eggman and Sonic switch brains by accident. You would think this would lead to Eggman trying to take over the world with Sonic's powers, but he doesn't. He actually decides that- now that he's Sonic- he'll enjoy the life of fame and fun that he's always envied the hedgehog for having. He lounges around basking in the glory of Sonic's fame, and enjoys every minute of being the hero, Sonic the Hedgehog. He even tries to genuinely save the day to keep up the charade, and there's not a hint that he wanted anything else from it.


Later, when the secret organization S.O.N.I.C.X. makes Vector into a giant monster, Eggman tries to stop it in order to get the people of Station Square to praise him for his awesomeness. It doesn't work.


Point being, the anime version of Eggman may want attention, but power is still his primary goal and he's always been after control of the world. The comic version, by contrast, just wants to be the center of attention in whatever way he can get it- Whether that's from world domination or hiding behind the mask of a superhero persona, he doesn't care. It really makes you wonder why he never just reformed to become a hero full-time.

This is one aspect about X comic Eggman I love. He wants, so badly, to be loved and appreciated, and he'll do whatever it takes to have that need met, and he gets a real rush from being good because- well- being good feels good. The comic was cancelled before Ian could implement all his ideas, but another Gordo arc was among them. What could've come of it? It's not sure, but I think if any canon version of Eggman could have feasibly reformed and straightened out his life to use his genius for good, this guy had the likeliest shot of eventually doing it.

X comic Eggman's is a complex case. I think I'll let this final excerpt from the comic speak for itself:

Edited by Dr. Mechano, 07 November 2011 - 12:22 AM.

[Vampfox]

Ok does this mean the Sonic X comic is not canon with the anime?

Edited by Darkfox, 07 November 2011 - 12:21 AM.

[Ice King]

Ok does this mean the Sonic X comic is not canon with the anime?

I think it's pretty obviously a separate continuity.

Think of it this way- Archie is similar to SatAM, but the two were always separate canons. Same here. The X anime and X comic have very different events, and the characterization differs a good deal too. So no, I don't consider them part of the same canon.

[Vampfox]

Ok thanks. I've been thinking of working on creating a topic about all the different Sonic canon's and I was wondering if I should break the Sonic X anime and Sonic X comic into two different canons.

It's confusing since some of the storylines in the Sonic X comic take place inbetween episodes of the anime.

Edited by Darkfox, 07 November 2011 - 12:45 AM.

[Scar]

Unleashed is a bit better, but not by much. But in Colors they clearly are not taking him seriously, the only scene where Sonic actively attacked Eggman was during the Tails Mind control scene, and that's quickly forgotten. Its scenes like that and Sonic's reaction after he becomes a Werehog, that confirm Eggman is the real deal. A good way to show Eggman is serious is if Sonic starts taking him seriously, then you know shit is about to get real.

That's because Eggman actually did something worthy of note in Unleashed. He, firstly defeated Super Sonic, broke open the fucking planet, and (albeit accidentally) transformed Sonic into the Werehog. Defeating a Super form is enough to wipe the smile off of anyone's face.

Colours, whilst Eggman did do some pretty vile things, he attempted to do so in secret. There was nothing that Sonic and Co. could see that was evil. Heck given the nature of the theme park, Tails thought he'd actually turned good. The time they start taking him seriously, is when he did something openly frightening, or the effects of his plans were witnessed first hand.
For instance the scene where the Wisp converter was seen showed Sonic looking pretty disgusted and Tails looks visibly horrified. Then there is the final Scene where Eggman is in a giant scary-looking (in the context of the series) machine.

Generations is an oddball (plot spoilers within).

Spoiler

Eggman wasn't known to be behind anything till the very end. Sonic and Sonic were as smug as usual, until both of them were curb-stomped into the ground by the machine. Their smugness only returned when they became Super.

As far as I'm concerned the Game version of Eggman puts forward an interesting insight towards the Hedgehog-Doctor relationship. Eggman only hates Sonic because he gets in his way and has repeatedly foiled his plans. Resulting in him losing his mental stability. His abhorrence with Sonic is only because Sonic is actively stopping him from succeeding.

In SatAM, it confused me as to why Robotnik hated Sonic so much, considering he'd already taken over the world. Sonic was a part of a larger movement, and whilst he was the biggest weapon, at least in SatAM, he was probably the smallest threat to Robotnik. Sonic in that show was like a missle with no lauch plans and target details. He was nothing without the Freedom Fighters, just as Nuke is nothing without a target to hit and a guidance system. So then, why did Robotnik fixate on Sonic. Surely his enimity would be better suited towards Sally, who was pretty much running the whole show. It felt like he hated Sonic simply because that's what the source material stated.

And as for Sonic, I reckon he doesn't so much fear Eggman, insomuch as he fears the things Eggman is capable of. As long as Eggman doesn't do anything truely frightening or is passive, Sonic retains his trademark attitude to give himself a psychological advantage. As soon as Eggman actively lays the beat-down, then Sonic shifts into serious mode.

Edited by Scar, 07 November 2011 - 02:24 AM.

[Vampfox]

I have warmed up to Archie's verison of Eggman since Ian has taken over.

Archie's verison of Robotnik has gone through alot of changes.

When Robotnik Prime first appeared in the comic he was a silly villain who acted more like his AOSTH counterpart then his Satam one. It wasn't till "Endgame" where he was written to be a more serious villain. And at the end of "Endgame" he died.

Then RoboRobotnik came to Mobius Prime. Right off the bat he was a more serious threat then Robotnik Prime. Plus he killed the Sonic in his zone so you knew that he was not meant to be taken lightly.

He's later deroboticized. At this point he kind of becomes a joke. In one storyline he tries to kill Mina just because he doesn't like her music.

Ian slowly built him back up into a threat again. And in issue 175 Eggman destroyes Knothole and beats the crap out of Sonic.

After this Sonic turns things around and Eggman starts to lose his mind, and in issue 200 he goes complety insane.

He later gets his santy back, but he now has mood swings.
He seems to go from being scary to silly and back again at the drop of a hat.

I guess this is Ian's way of trying to please both the fans who want Eggman to be a threat, and those who like him to be more goofy.