2389 replies to this topic

[Patticus]

But they do all have the distinct advantage of not being Barack Obama going into election where being Barack Obama is a fairly bad thing to be (deservedly, for reasons turbojet outlined in the OP and many others).

I can only imagine that "being Barack Obama" being a bad thing must mainly be down to people blaming everything under the sun on him, including the weather and their own stupidity. That, and a general ignorance of what's actually going on in government and the world at large.

For example, if Mitt Romney ends up being the final guy to go against Obama (which is probably not going to happen because the GOP hates him, but they hated McCain too so it could happen), Obama is fucked.

Why? Mitt seems as retarded as the rest of them, and by all accounts he did a pretty shitty job at generating jobs in his own state (came nearly dead last out of all the states, didn't he?) and as I already said he flip-flopped because of something Rush Limbaugh said on TV.

[Tornado]

I can only imagine that "being Barack Obama" being a bad thing must mainly be down to people blaming everything under the sun on him, including the weather and their own stupidity. That, and a general ignorance of what's actually going on in government and the world at large.

This response shows general ignorance of what is actually going on in America.


Obama had his four years, and after the first one was over and he got a couple of things done he basically stopped doing things altogether. The man had the charisma possibly on the same level of Kennedy and Reagan, but as soon as the makeup of the government became one in which he couldn't steamroll whatever he wanted through he basically stopped trying to use it; waffling about regarding basically all decisions and blaming Republicans for everything that goes wrong when it is mostly his own inability to play the political game that causes all of his problems with them. Of late it has even creeped into his foreign policy



Nevermind that the handful of things that he has accomplished in the past couple of years have generally just managed to be compromises that piss off everyone rather than long-lasting solutions, like the Unemployment Extension/Bush Tax Cuts clusterbomb last year or the budget crisis this year.

Why? Mitt seems as retarded as the rest of them, and by all accounts he did a pretty shitty job at generating jobs in his own state

He's also a fairly moderate-to-left Republican candidate in an election that is, while not quite theirs to lose, still wouldn't be that hard to win; just like how Obama was a moderate Democrat candidate in an election facing the same situation; and unlike your Hilary Clintons or your Michelle Bachmans he doesn't piss people off simply by existing to the point that they will go to the polls simply to vote for the person going against him.

and as I already said he flip-flopped because of something Rush Limbaugh said on TV.

Politicians weasel their way out of things when they feel it might be damaging to them? Is this news?

The only thing that shows is that NeoCons hate him enough to try to fuck him over like they did to McCain in 2000, which means he automatically is more suitable for the job than any of the candidates they do like.

Edited by Tornado, 12 November 2011 - 10:19 PM.

[American Ristar]

Herman Cain is the future!

[Patticus]

Obama had his four years, and after the first one was over and he got a couple of things done he basically stopped doing things altogether. The man had the charisma possibly on the same level of Kennedy and Reagan, but as soon as the makeup of the government became one in which he couldn't steamroll whatever he wanted through he basically stopped trying to use it; waffling about regarding basically all decisions and blaming Republicans for everything that goes wrong when it is mostly his own inability to play the political game that causes all of his problems with them. Of late it has even creeped into his foreign policy.

It isn't that he can't steamroll anything through, it's that he and, secondary to that, what he wanted to push through, was so hated by the right-wing politicians and TV/radio demagogues, that anything and everything he could ever try to do in office short of switch political party will be opposed by every single fibre of the GOP/right-wing press.

The Republicans must share a significant portion of the blame due to the level of control they have on the house.. I think it's the house of representatives? Anyway, he can't get anything done the way it should be done because the GOP presence there opposes him, not the policies but him and all he wants to do, and the only way he can get things passed is by watering them down and compromising to the point that they're not worth half as much as before, because something done is better than nothing done, and then he's attacked for compromising and shit?

Come on, he's damned no matter what he does isn't he?

Nevermind that the handful of things that he has accomplished in the past couple of years have generally just managed to be compromises that piss off everyone rather than long-lasting solutions, like the Unemployment Extension/Bush Tax Cuts clusterbomb last year or the budget crisis this year.

Perhaps, if the majority-GOP house hadn't opposed everything (or at least a good deal of what was) coming out of the Obama administration for all the wrong reasons, if they had been willing to engage in a proper bi-partisan relationship with the Democrats for the good of the country, if they really wanted the US economy to get back on track ASAP and weren't focused on destroying it purely for the sake of an election victory (they were even trying to get the US' credit rating to be downgraded just so they could fuck him with it in their hateful election ads!), we might've seen less diluted accomplishments, and more positive progress.

There would probably be more positive feelings toward the GOP from the general populace too.

Politicians weasel their way out of things when they feel it might be damaging to them? Is this news?

It is when that person may one day be president. Not one sensible person should want a president whose views on science date back to the Middle Ages.

[BW199148]

Come on, he's damned no matter what he does isn't he?

Reminds me of LBJ towards the end of his presidency.

[Johnny Boy]

I usually try to stay out of political threads. But seeing the type of people Obama might be going against, I really won't be surprised if he gets a second term.

[Gerk Marenghis Darkplace]

The thing is, the republicans believe that doing nothing is preferrable to passing something that they believe could wreck the country. Which isn't a bad idea in principle...

... Except when you're in a situation where doing nothing is the worst option. That's just being pig-headed.

[turbojet]

If Cain can get his shit together and stop being a walking PR screwup (which looks very unlikely), he's another one who has a chance (albeit a far smaller one).

Herman Cain would be barbecued(no racial pun intended). He honestly believes that if nominated, he and other Republicans will get 20% of the black vote. The black vote has been 90% Democrat since the Reagan years. He knows little to nothing about international relations(he has read up on them), and he already has a scandal going for him. Let us put it in perspective. Out of all the Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas has the lowest approval rating. Not because black people universally hate him. Women don't take kindly to him either with the whole Anita Hill controversy. Herman Cain is Clarence Thomas on the national stage. There is no way he could ever beat Barack.

[Gerk Marenghis Darkplace]

The thing is though, it's generally not about who's best but about who wins the most primaries. And in that sense Mr. Cain has a shot.

[Lemanic]

GOP and their ideas are relics from the dark ages. Medieval policies with Ron Paul as their all mighty napoleonesque king.
Their economical policies are taken diectly from the late 16th century, when the dutch immigrants came and created the buisness we know today as Wall Street.
It's really ridiculus that they want the power of the western world. Let's leave 'em and forget 'em for good, shall we?

[Tornado]

The Republicans must share a significant portion of the blame due to the level of control they have on the house.. I think it's the house of representatives? Anyway, he can't get anything done the way it should be done because the GOP presence there opposes him, not the policies but him and all he wants to do, and the only way he can get things passed is by watering them down and compromising to the point that they're not worth half as much as before, because something done is better than nothing done, and then he's attacked for compromising and shit?

Come on, he's damned no matter what he does isn't he?

Was Reagan? Was Clinton? Both of them faced tons of shit towards the end of their presidency (the entire second half of Clinton's presidency was a high stakes game of chicken), and both of them basically told Congress to shove their complaints up their asses because they both went after public support for what they wanted. Obama is the President of the United States. Fucking Bush, of all people, still managed to get a lot of what he wanted done post-2007, and by that point even Republicans hated him.

Obama's position is the Bully Pulpit. He says things, anything, and it is news. He has a more direct line of communication to the people than a person who owns a TV studio. A man with the amount of charisma that he showed to get elected could ramrod whatever the fuck he wanted through Congress simply by bypassing them entirely, which he used to his advantage for the first year and a half of office and immediately stopped bothering to attempt when he was hit with resistance (with a couple of exceptions). The Republicans saw he wasn't going to put up a fight, and ever since then it has been like he was bleeding out in a shark tank.




The idea that Obama is being constantly hamstrung by Republicans is true; but it is almost entirely of Obama's own fault for undergoing the transformation from Kennedy to Jimmy Carter and allowing that to happen.

Perhaps, if the majority-GOP house hadn't opposed everything (or at least a good deal of what was) coming out of the Obama administration for all the wrong reasons, if they had been willing to engage in a proper bi-partisan relationship with the Democrats for the good of the country,

Bipartisanship is a myth put forth by Congressman to pretend that things are getting done. You get elected for the sole purpose of undermining Presidential efforts, which most of the mid-term legislators did, and any attempts at trying for bipartisan were a fucking waste of time for all involved. This was clear to everyone in this country the second Boehner took his position as House majority leader.

Obama isn't stupid. He knew he wouldn't be able to work with most of them because they were elected purely on the basis of how obstructionist they would be. But then he wasted weeks during unemployment crisis trying to reason with people he knew to be unreasonable, and didn't bother appealing to the people until the eleventh hour after it was far too late to achieve what should have been done. Then he did the same thing during the budget crisis. It is kind of hard to blame obstructionist Congressmen for being obstructionist when that is what they were elected for in the first place; but it is easy to blame the guy who had the power to force the issue, had used that power when he first got into office and then proceeded to throw up his hands, whine that it was someone else's fault and not use it when it was needed most.

if they really wanted the US economy to get back on track ASAP and weren't focused on destroying it purely for the sake of an election victory (they were even trying to get the US' credit rating to be downgraded just so they could fuck him with it in their hateful election ads!), we might've seen less diluted accomplishments, and more positive progress.

In early 2010, the Democrat-controlled Senate, led by professional scumbag Harry Reid, purposely torpedoed the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell so they would have fuel for that election season. Then they never brought it back up when they all got reelected. When it became evident that they never really planned on repealing it in the first place, Obama himself basically had to step in and tell Democrats to go fuck themselves because it was either going to get repealed or he was going to shut down the military. It is one of the few decisive actions Obama has taken since the midterms.


You are basically complaining that Republicans are being Republicans when the actual crime they are guilty of is being sleazy Congressmen.

It is when that person may one day be president. Not one sensible person should want a president whose views on science date back to the Middle Ages.

Compared to the rather glaring flaws in regards to beliefs contained by some of the other candidates, and the guy who currently has the job, I think this is a fairly minor thing to be worried about.

GOP and their ideas are relics from the dark ages. Medieval policies with Ron Paul as their all mighty napoleonesque king.

You say some silly shit in these types of threads, but this may very well take the cake. You do realize that almost every outlet the GOP uses to project their views is against Ron Paul, right?

Edited by Tornado, 13 November 2011 - 01:57 AM.

[turbojet]

I am not saying that he doesn't have a chance in the primaries. I'm saying that he doesn't have a shot against Obama.

[Tornado]

Herman Cain would be barbecued(no racial pun intended). He honestly believes that if nominated, he and other Republicans will get 20% of the black vote. The black vote has been 90% Democrat since the Reagan years. He knows little to nothing about international relations(he has read up on them), and he already has a scandal going for him. Let us put it in perspective. Out of all the Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas has the lowest approval rating. Not because black people universally hate him. Women don't take kindly to him either with the whole Anita Hill controversy. Herman Cain is Clarence Thomas on the national stage. There is no way he could ever beat Barack.

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. A big part of why Obama won the first time is because he was able to successfully combat voter apathy (charisma and all that) among groups of people who by default feel disenfranchised towards the federal government (and especially Republicans). Without that turnout of of people that I think he almost certainly won't get this time, any reasonably charismatic Republican could pull off a win if Obama's fortunes continue to worsen in terms of public opinion.


Would Cain be some miracle saving throw for the blacks/minorities/what have you? Absolutely not. But will Obama see the votes from minorities/young people/whatever that he did the first time? I don't think so. Basically, I don't think either candidate would end up with a decisive advantage in those demographics, because I think those demographics will go back to being apathetic.

Edited by Tornado, 13 November 2011 - 02:14 AM.

[Metal Gear (sting)RAY]

I don't really hate the GOP, just the two party system that tries to ensure all we get a leader arbitrarily based on who has the most radical or promising beliefs rather than the most relevant or plausible ones. I think the biggest delusion in politics is that compromise and moderation equates to political weakness. This is absolutely insane and the republican primary is a complete testament to that. Rick Perry is using how many people he has EXECUTED as a POSITIVE bullet point in his campaign, and apparently that is the case with many rightwing constituents. And Herman Cain is heavily promoting his 999 plan because, apparently, which taxes you cut is less important than the fact you're going to cut taxes. See, you're not going to win the Republican debate unless you can out-"RonaldReagan," out-Homophobia, out-DeathPenalty and out-LookLikeYouCanHaveABeerWithMe the other candidates. See, I'm moderate for a reason- I don't believe one's political passion comes from how far left or right they're on the political spectrum, but how "up" or "down"- the degree to which they stick to their beliefs. That's the problem we have with Obama- he didn't tell us what we needed to hear, he told us what we wanted to hear. And right now, the whole board of candidates isn't saying what they want, just what their voters want, and they'll sacrifice anything for a ballot. The only one up there I respect is Ron Paul since he sticks relatively firmly to the platform he came in on, but even then I wouldn't vote for him since to me, Libertarianism is essentially Anarchy with training wheels.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

So based off the comments people have made, I'm betting the impression that the 2012 elections is going to be a clusterfuck or a mess of some kind between Obama and whatever GOP candidate he goes against.

And there's no guarantee who'll win.

[Metal Gear (sting)RAY]

So based off the comments people have made, I'm betting the impression that the 2012 elections is going to be a clusterfuck or a mess of some kind between Obama and whatever GOP candidate he goes against.

And there's no guarantee who'll win.

Never before have I truly felt like I'm in that episode of South Park with the Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich. Only we don't know for certain yet who's going to be the Douche.

Edited by SuperStingray, 13 November 2011 - 11:48 AM.

[turbojet]

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. A big part of why Obama won the first time is because he was able to successfully combat voter apathy (charisma and all that) among groups of people who by default feel disenfranchised towards the federal government (and especially Republicans). Without that turnout of of people that I think he almost certainly won't get this time, any reasonably charismatic Republican could pull off a win if Obama's fortunes continue to worsen in terms of public opinion.

There is political charisma and then there is Flavor Flav charisma. Sure, Cain can jig like no other, but do not compare it to the erudite affluence of Obama. Cain does not stack up at all with Obama and such simple thinking should be shot in the face.

Would Cain be some miracle saving throw for the blacks/minorities/what have you? Absolutely not. But will Obama see the votes from minorities/young people/whatever that he did the first time? I don't think so. Basically, I don't think either candidate would end up with a decisive advantage in those demographics, because I think those demographics will go back to being apathetic.

First thing with this is that African Americans have always and I mean always had high participation rates in elections. Even prior to Obama. Sure,voter participation won't be as high as 2008, but when 60% of a base that can vote(don't get me started on disenfranchisement) votes on a regular basis, it might as well be considered that they didn't just vote because I black man was running. 2nd, 18-24s do not vote. They never have. They might with the Occupy groups forming, but with past experiences and records show that they are so insignificant that it doesn't even matter. You can't compare that demographic with African Americans who have extraordinarily high voter participation. Finally, there is no way Cain can ever shed this scandal off or his poor handling of it. The media won't drop it and I don't expect them to. Cain does not stack up well with Obama at all.

[Lemanic]

You say some silly shit in these types of threads, but this may very well take the cake. You do realize that almost every outlet the GOP uses to project their views is against Ron Paul, right?

But he's still in the game and he still influencing 'em, right? There's no doubt he's the "king" of this party. The difference is his moderate approach and marketing, which for the other presidential candidates in GOP, seems absolutely absurd. Rememeber that GOP relies more on marketing and superficiality than actual politics today, so anything that seems different on the outside will be left in the cold and punished at by them.

[SpikySprinter]

Really? Is Herman Cain, the most intelligent candidate in American presidential politics, going to win? Maybe. If he does, Obama is fucking screwed. I could not possibly be happier with the candidates of the Right. I know there's that scandal with the sexual harassment, but hey, if we can let the whole Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright scandal pass over our heads, why not that as well? It is rather typical; the Democrat party has quite a history of vilifying black people. Maybe the harassment scandal will scare those racist Republicans into avoiding him. Wait, nope, Cain is still leading the polls.
Really?
Fuck yeah.

[Nepenthe]

If giving my parents their civil rights is vilification, I don't want to imagine what the fuck the Southern Strategy was. This is completely ignoring the fact that the reddest states tend to house some of the most racist halfwits anyway. I live in Georgia, the state where we ousted a competent govenor because he took a stand against the damned confederate flag. Democrats villify blacks. Please.