23 replies to this topic

[Azure Yakuzu]

Ok, we all know the stories have had a significant drop in importance and quality as of late, that's a legitimate complaint, but sometimes it feels like that's the only thing fans care about when voicing their complaints about the Modern games post-06, nothing about gameplay or the quality of that, ya know the portion of the game that you're supposed to care about? I mean I see people defending 06 just for having a "better"(And I use that term extremely loosely) story than Generations, and I'm all "Wtf?" So can someone tell me why we put so much emphasis on story than on the gameplay?


Important Note: This is not a topic to complain or bitch about the stories of recent or past games, but to discuss the amount of focus most fans seem to put on the stories themselves; so I would appreciate it if the topic didn't delve into a bitchfest about which era of stories are "better" we've had enough of that shit.

[Doc Eggman]

Ok, we all know the stories have had a significant drop in importance and quality as of late

Actually, Colors and Generations had two of my favorite stories in the entire series. Lighthearted tone? Eggman as the main villain? Eggman written extremely well at that? I know you didn't mean to be, but it does come off as slightly presumptuous to say that we all "know" the stories have had a drop in quality. Some, like myself, absolutely love this recent turn of events.

And to answer your question, the stories are indeed important to me, and contributes a great deal to my enjoyment of the games. Since I loved the stories of Colors/Generations, my appreciation for the games as a whole has increased. If the gameplay was exactly the same, but say- the stories were grimdark, had a giant monster as the main villain, and Eggman was written into having a forgettable bit part- I would say my enjoyment of the game would drastically lessen, despite the gameplay still being (more or less) passable.

Why? Well... The story and characters are a major part of Sonic's appeal. In my case in particular, my favorite character usually isn't playable to begin with; So since the aspect of Sonic I'm most invested in revolves around a mostly nonplayable character, story/characterization has become the thing I'm most invested in. I'm sure this varies from fan to fan, but- since you asked why some of us place more focus on storyline- I've told you why I do.

So one of the main reasons I'm more excited about Sonic nowadays is because- in my opinion- the stories have gotten much better, not worse. Since the story is so important to me, it's one of the biggest contributors to my enjoyment of the games.

[sonfan1984]

I'm all for good gameplay but the story and the characters is also what got me into really liking the Sonic series, too. Take those two away and the games just feels empty to me and I won't be that motivated to play.

Edited by sonfan1984, 29 December 2011 - 10:24 PM.

[Vertekins]

I certainly put emphasis on story. And I would find the reason for Sonic Generations' minimalistic story and extremely brief secondary character interactions extremely annoying if the reason as to why that approach was taken was because of "Sonic's Shitty Friends" screamers and/or because of people who can't locate the 'skip cutscene' button if cutscenes that tell the story offend them so much.

When I play a modern Sonic title, I expect to get a rounded experience including beefed-out characterization and character development and a story that gives the main characters a reason to do what they do as well as one that generally entertains. Because I buy a game to be entertained by more than just gameplay. As a great aficionado of characterization and story as well as a rounded videogame experience, I'll continue to expect good stories and characterization.

Edited by Verte, 29 December 2011 - 10:21 PM.

[Nitwit_Speed]

Well, the stories are part of the immersion. When you have a bad story, you're reminded that it's just a story and a lot of the magic fades. You're a person holding a controller controlling Sonic in a game that you may or may not like, whereas if the story is solid and immersible you ARE Sonic, although you will be reminded that it's only a game when weird glitches happen and all that jazz that makes Sonic 06 so, um, despised. When you've got a solid game with a solid plot, you're sucked in. Some games get away with not having a plot like the mario games simply because that's how the universe is set up, but there are a lot of people who see the Sonic universe being a lot like ours except with those insane pinball-esque environments and Chaos Emeralds and talking Hedgehogs running at mach speed. And then you also have people who think Sonic should be all AoSTH and Colorsy. Sonic's been all over the place and some people like different things that he's done which are both equally valid as Sonic. The thing isn't that people want no story, but it's the difference between people wanting Colors and SatBK.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I dunno, I consider Sonic 3 & Knuckles the pinnacle of Sonic gaming and it sure as hell isn't because of its story, not that it has a bad one mind you as it does a good job of connecting the events having them make sense despite the lack of dialogue or voices. I also appreciate a good story in a Sonic game, it immerses you, and you feel involved with the events and it gives you incentive to play, but playing Generations, I really didn't need a motivation beyond my desire to test myself in the game; its story is underdeveloped and minimalistic but that doesn't really stop it from being a good game does it? Granted it probably would've been better if the writing was up to par, but meh.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

I wouldn't say story dipped in quality, but it has dipped in importance and depth. Generations' story, as little as it had, was much better handled than Sonic 06 and ShTH. In fact, it had less story than Heroes, and it did a FAR better job at being entertaining at the bare minimum.

But do we as fans put more emphasis on story? Yes we do. Those of us who love them put emphasis on Quality, Depth, Tone, Characterization and Importance so as to increase the value of the entertainment we are getting from the game. Those who do not like stories put emphasis on the more negative aspects of having these things around, by how they detract from the gameplay, and how unnecessary they are. It's kind of a complex matter regarding it.

The way I see it, stories are in a game to entertain and make you care more about the characters (Playable or NPC) instead of just playing through the bare minimum. It's like baking a cake: you can have a regular vanilla cake, a vanilla cake with sprinkles or chocolate chip, or red velvet cake with chocolate syrup and chips. Some people like more flavor to it. And like a cake, you can completely mess up the formula and make it taste awful or bland at best.

But with this analogy, I think making a cake divided into different flavors would make more sense here: everyone gets the share they are given, but some believe they deserve more cake than others.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 30 December 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[NintendoSoul]

For me, it's more of a dip in urgency than a dip in quality.

[Chaos Warp]

I don't know, for me, gameplay is always the top priority for me when I'm looking at a game, and the story can kind of be the icing on the cake, while the gameplay is the rest of the cake. So, I'm not sure about other fans, but I don't care about story all that much. That being said, I would love to see more meaty stories return in Sonic games. We've got supposedly good writers and voice actors, let's see what they can do!

[Scar]

Oh yeah.

I love me a good story. Though I prefer stories with just a few characters; the ones that are necessary. I don't like it when a ton of characters are shoved in there for no reason and just create added baggage the plot needs to deal with. I also dislike unecessary dialogue. A lot of games, including Colours suffered from characters just not shutting the fuck up. Generations did it best with Scenes where Sonic doesn't talk at all and just gives a facial expression. The funniest scene is when Modern Sonic rescues Charmy. Its not funny because Sonic said something funny, its funny because of Sonic's rather priceless reaction to Charmy's hyperactivity. Just a facial expression.

I feel that this needs to be done more often. Facial expressions and body laguage can tell you a lot about the significance of an event/scene and about the personality of the character, just as much as any line of dialogue can.

I also like the scenery and environments telling their own little story in the background. Yeah it doesn't have much to do with the immediate plot, but it subtly deepens the world in which the Sonic characters live. The images of people in Sandopolis' Pyramids, the Mural in Hidden Palace. All of that creates a history behind the Sonic Universe, all without a single line of dialogue.
I dunno, it just gets me thinking...

Anyway, that's all off-topic.
Fans do emphasise the story more than others. People who dislike plots say some bullshit like "Sonic don't need a story" or "Sonic can't have serious-ish plots because he's a blue hedgehog". I disagree, if Toy Story (I know lofty example), a film about fucking toys, can tell a deep and emotional story about Toys and their changing relationship with their owners, then why can't Sonic the hedgehog tell a serious or deep story? Then there are the other side. These people vehemently dispise simplisitic plots and a focus on humour, criticising the script for being cheesy and corny etc. This is inspite of the fact that most of the serious plots were equally cheesy and corny. This also leads to people wanting bigger, grander plots with lots of characters (their particular favorite character mind you, even if it makes little sense), especially recently what with the Sonic-only and less dramatic plots.

I don't mind, as long as its executed well and is subtle. I really hated Shadow's attempt at badassery. No Shadow isn't Jason Statham, he doesn't need guns and cars and bikes, he's Shadow the Hedgehog. I also hated Sonic 06's forced and poorly excecuted maturity that went in all the wrong directions.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Fans do emphasise the story more than others. People who dislike plots say some bullshit like "Sonic don't need a story" or "Sonic can't have serious-ish plots because he's a blue hedgehog". I disagree, if Toy Story (I know lofty example), a film about fucking toys, can tell a deep and emotional story about Toys and their changing relationship with their owners, then why can't Sonic the hedgehog tell a serious or deep story?

There's Toy Story...
then there's Wall-E, Kung Fu Panda (DEFINITELY KFP), Lion King, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper...man I would go on with the examples I have seen throughout countless entertainment media that do exactly that in having deep and emotional (YMMV) stories.

I think the problem here for Sonic is that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude a lot of those people may have. They don't get that it's not about "fixing" than it is "improving" something. That, and often times if it IS broken, instead of fixing it, they'll want to throw it away a revert backwards. If it didn't work the first time, take notes and find other ways to make it work next time.

Then there are the other side. These people vehemently dispise simplisitic plots and a focus on humour, criticising the script for being cheesy and corny etc. This is inspite of the fact that most of the serious plots were equally cheesy and corny. This also leads to people wanting bigger, grander plots with lots of characters (their particular favorite character mind you, even if it makes little sense), especially recently what with the Sonic-only and less dramatic plots.

I'd say that Heroes was more at fault here with that attitude. These are often people who came out after playing through the stories in the Adventures and wanted to see them do better. I used to be one of those people.

After playing games like Ratchet and Clank and Sly Cooper, that kinda changed.

Another thing I'd like to add is this sort of "This or that" mentality that you have kindly illustrated. There are various franchises out there that, rather than stay at one side of the spectrum throughout it's life, or shift spectrums between games, they weave it all together in the game. You have games and shows that have soft, tender, lighthearted moments in one scene before having a disaster occur unexpectedly and seamlessly shift it to the heavy, cruel, and darker regions of storytelling in less than 5 seconds. Even better, you have stories that mix it by being heavy, tender, and dark or throw in various creative elements to make it more enjoyable, however simplistic or large the story is.

And when it comes to hearing people make these claims, I wonder how much exposure to literature or how open-minded they are when it comes to these things. It's not an "either or" thing than it is a "what if" or more.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 30 December 2011 - 01:15 AM.

[DuraV]

I think fans put more of an emphasis on presentation than story; hence the enormous attention to voice actors, character design, and dialogue. Then there is the divide between people who think Sonic should look like a hero and people who think he should not look like a hero but be capable of impressive things.

In S3+k, the story wasn’t the emphasis or the draw, but it also didn’t introduce plot points only to kill them two seconds later, dwell on pointless details for five minuets, explain the painfully obvious, or crack cheesy one liners. You didn’t need to in order to feel the scope, the danger, or the tone of the game- most of this was crammed into the level design and the game play.

Of course as technology improved, said tone, sense of danger and whatnot was slowly moved to the cut scenes, qte, etc.
Most arguments are about how the advancements are implemented.

[DC111]

Why do fans complain about story more than anything, despite the fact that gameplay should be most important? Because quite frankly, the story is what is lacking the most in the games lately. With Colors (arguably), Free Riders and Generations, the stories have had much less substance and significance than they used to, while everything else - gameplay, level design, graphics, music - has either improved or stayed consistent. It's like Sonic Team, in the effort to improve everything, somehow got the notion that improving a story means having less of it. Which is ridiculous. It's lightweight I have a problem with, not lighthearted. The recent stories barely support their own plot points, and they are pretty much a collection of build-up without delivery, missed opportunities, and a general sense of lost potential. Characterization is well-done (though the accuracy of it in Colors to previous games is debatable, but that's for another topic), especially in Generations, but the limited story doesn't even take advantage of its new writers to show this off.

So yes. Fans have been putting more emphasis on story. And if Sega/Sonic Team picks up on the direction of this train of thought and kiss fan ass like they usually do, I'll be all the happier for it.

[Inferno]

Why do fans complain about story more than anything, despite the fact that gameplay should be most important? Because quite frankly, the story is what is lacking the most in the games lately. With Colors (arguably), Free Riders and Generations, the stories have had much less substance and significance than they used to, while everything else - gameplay, level design, graphics, music - has either improved or stayed consistent. It's like Sonic Team, in the effort to improve everything, somehow got the notion that improving a story means having less of it. Which is ridiculous. It's lightweight I have a problem with, not lighthearted. The recent stories barely support their own plot points, and they are pretty much a collection of build-up without delivery, missed opportunities, and a general sense of lost potential. Characterization is well-done (though the accuracy of it in Colors to previous games is debatable, but that's for another topic), especially in Generations, but the limited story doesn't even take advantage of its new writers to show this off.

So yes. Fans have been putting more emphasis on story. And if Sega/Sonic Team picks up on the direction of this train of thought and kiss fan ass like they usually do, I'll be all the happier for it.

I would like, but I'm all out.

But yeah I agree. The stories are fine as they are, but I simply want more to sink my teeth into. For me, I look at a mainstream Sonic game as a package deal. It can have great gameplay, and I'd give praise to it, where the praise is due, but I'd still be disappointed in the other parts that are lacking. I let the handheld titles off the hook, and have similar leniency with spinoff titles when it comes to stories; as long as the gameplay is good then I'm ok with it, but when it comes to the mainstream titles, I'm looking for the whole package.

Edited by Inferno, 30 December 2011 - 05:04 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I think so much emphasis on story is because the series kind of developed a loose continuity after Sa1, and people just really came to expect stories like that as the norm, so then Colors comes in and then instant rage.

[Inferno]

In my opinion, if they wanted us to accept simpler stories, they should've eased us into it better, weening us off of huge stories, so to speak, by dwindling them down little by little after each game, so we wouldn't notice as much. Instead, they gave us one of Sonic's grandest adventures yet in terms of scale, and then gave us a story that felt like more than a couple steps down only 2 years later. Of course some people were mad.

[Marco]

I'd like to quote a particular person who did an eight-part analysis on Digimon Adventure 02:

Are children’s cartoons built on the assumption that kids are stupid? No! Or, at least, they shouldn’t be! The assumption should be that kids are generally simple-minded individuals who lack maturity, not intelligence. A cartoon aimed at children should subtract from complex story elements rather than subtract from elements that are fundamentally vital to storytelling itself (including a well-developed plot along with well-developed characters.)

The reason I’m giving this subject any thought or analyzation is because, as far as the original Digimon Adventure or Digimon Tamers is concerned, the writers seemed to generally care about storytelling. Regardless of the fact that their story was based on something as mundane as a virtual pet you’d casual hang on your keychain, they still made a great story! I can only guess that the mindset going into creating the original Digimon Adventure was, “Hey, if we’re going to do it, we might as well do it well.” Whatever the mindset really was, I have determined that something had definitely changed or departed from how Adventure 02 was written in comparison to it predecessor.

With this in mind, there needs to be a breakdown on what exactly the fans are emphasizing on critically. It is not the story, but rather it's plot.

In of itself, the story is fine. It grants the essentials to the game. Eggman is up to no good, and Sonic has to stop him. This is all you need to forge a passable story. The journey, depth, and dialogue is what is important. Plot however is when things get shakey, and while I know this thread isn't here to bash game-specific storylines, I have to state this to make a point: Sonic '06 had a bad story because it tried to do too much at once. It essentially had three different plotlines that, if anyone paid attention, did not mesh into the general story. Instead, the Last Story just randomly threw everyone together and dropped all the plotlines altogether. Every other game handled it's storyline much better, with both Unleashed and Colors having passable plots.

Generations is a whole different beast altogether, as it's plot took a nosedive in depth. However, the story remained intact as it always has. This is when fan perception comes into play, as Generations' story is less of Sonic's story, and more of the player's story as they make their extremely long stroll down memory lane doped with nostalgia.

Since this was brought up, I'll state my position on Sonic giving facial expressions to his friends once they were freed from stone: What's the point? Actually, I'll restate that and ask why exactly does Sonic react in such a way? Classic Sonic is like this because it's his niche, but Modern Sonic doesn't really have an excuse. It doesn't really matter if it's spoken dialogue or facial expressions, both can and will be deemed unnecessary if it ends up being totally pointless.

Fans put more emphasis on story because Sonic games has had good stories before, and there's really no reason why a bad story, or rather a bad plot, should be excused just because a game has good, or even excellent gameplay. If you're gonna make a story, you should at least put some effort into it.

[The future]

I want a slightly more complex story than SG or Colors, but nothing more than that. And have the few characters evolve beyond two-dimensional personalities.

[Scarecrow]

I like having the motivation, honestly. I get there is some in, say, generations, getting to save your friend. But there's less sense of journey which makes it a little less epic in some ways, on this side of things. I think a level like Crazy Gadget is even more tense with Eggman's threats on Amy, or knowing in White Jungle you're racing to escape an exploding island. Even fleeing GUN, searching an ancient Lost World for answers, or rushing through Kingdom valley to save Elise, they all have a sense of narrative purpose to beating the level fast and skillfully that I do enjoy.

[Semjax]

Fans put emphasis on what they feel will most effect their own general gaming experience. As I've mentioned in topics before that Sonic would've most likely fell through the cracks had it not gained a strong story, that still stands tall but when it comes to 'Do fans put more emphasis on story' the answer is yes, they also put high emphasis on Graphics, VA, Gameplay, Quality of each one, and other such things that make a game whole. Very few people can look at a game and judge it on every single quality that it has unbiasedly, we judge a game based on our own personal experiences and what we would like to see in the work the creators made for this game, rather then focusing on the game as an entirety which we all should as gamers. This goes without saying that I myself can't say that I am unbiased, as I look at three very distinctive things to see if I like a game: Story, Gameplay, and SOUNDTRACK. That last one actually being a deal breaker for me if its that bad which is ironically one of the least important things on a game, I'm just a music nerd.

So to answer the qustion 'Do fans put more emphasis on story?' once more, I say yes, but I'll tack on that it is dependent on that fan rather then the fandom in a whole.

(PS: That Soundtrack part was one of the reasons I enjoyed Sonic '06 so much.)

Edited by Semjax, 30 December 2011 - 04:17 PM.