Modern Sonic in 2D

[JezMM]

Okay I'm rarely the starter of these topics, if nothing else I consider it a community service because I just imagine it'll make for some interesting discussion.

Lately it would seem that a lot of people would agree with these statements:

Sonic Generations has proven Sonic Team can make competant, varied 3D levels with multiple routes - there's argueably no need for the 3D/2D blend to be a crutch anymore.

Sonic 4 should endeavour to be as much like the Classics in design as possible.

With these things considered, what do you think is the future for Modern Sonic in 2D? Do you think everything we've built should be cast aside in favour of going back to basics with the style of Sonic Advance and Sonic Pocket Adventure? Should we build upon the middle-ground that is Advance 2, 3, and the Rush games? Perhaps you really like the Unleashed moveset and would like to see future 2D Sonics continue on in the style of Colours DS and Generations 3DS.

Maybe you hate all things Modern Sonic and think that both 2D and 3D games should go back to being momentum-fueled physics playgrounds like the originals, feel free to state that too.

Remember this is just about 2D games that are meant to reflect the modern identity of the brand, and on any platform - not necessarily intended to be throwbacks to the classic games like Sonic 4, nor even being designed for portable devices only.

Me personally, I do like having the 3D moveset in 2D - but I do also feel Generations 3DS' level design was a bit too linear, and almost "elaborate QTE"-ish.

I also really want them to dedicate themselves one way or the other with the wall jump. It's a great move, but becomes nothing but frustrating when they only let you use it when prompted, and all other times where it would be useful it simply doesn't work because they didn't design the area with consideration for it and therefore said "no" to prevent you from "cheating".

The Unleashed moveset is really fun and totally suits Sonic, and absoloutely can be used for more exploration and multiple routes elements.

For example, why have the slide be nothing more than a "if you remember there's a slide gap coming up, you may continue, if you don't, you must embarrassingly run into a wall for a second"?

A layout like this would allow a slide gap moment to become a path into three different routes - and no matter what your reaction time is, momentum and flow is not lost.

That's just an example of course. I feel like the basic Unleashed moveset could very nicely compliment stage design that also makes use of stage specific gimmicks AND momentum-based physics platforming.

So uhh... yes, what do you want to see in future 2D games, given what we have to work with/choose from so far?

Edited January 11, 2012 by JezMM

[Kuzu]

The only Unleashed moves I can see working in 2D are the wall jump, slide, and stomp but it would be interesting to see a game utilize those moves, though Colors DS kind of did it last year.

[Diogenes]

Maybe you hate all things Modern Sonic and think that both 2D and 3D games should go back to being momentum-fueled physics playgrounds like the originals, feel free to state that too.

[JezMM]

('.')/

The modern gameplay just needs to go. Classic mechanics are better for 2D, and it hasn't done much good for 3D.

[Kuzu]

('.')/

The modern gameplay just needs to go. Classic mechanics are better for 2D, and it hasn't done much good for 3D.

[Diogenes]

Is there really absoloutely nothing you'd keep at all? Not arguing of course, just asking.

[Indigo Rush]

Wall jump, quick stomp, pineapple smells, grapes, melons, oranges, and coconut shells

Actually, not so much on the fruit, but the key thing is more variety in parkour platforming would be cool. I like the boost, but since several of us are so keen on ripping out it's intestines and burning it's entrails while sticking it's head on a pike, I would humbly offer the idea of a quick dash.

You simply press a secondary button to dash at top running speed (not actually that fast, all things considered) while giving him a second of invulnerability. The move couldn't be used exponentially upon itself, so the speed would stay the same, but to prevent the spamming of the whole invulnerability thing, you could make it so that the button wouldn't respond for at least one or two seconds after initiating the move.

Just an idea. Oh, and the obligatory Genesis Sonic physics requirement and whatnot.

[Solly]

I've always felt that Sonic games, and most videogames in general tend to be more fun when they aren't so reaction-based. The open playground-esque levels might not be AS fun to speedrun and get the best times on, but it all starts to blend together at a point for me.

The problem is that if you were to watch a couple of playthroughs of, say, the 2d sections of Unleashed or Generations, they would really all look the same as eachother. The games are so formulaic that there really aren't that many ways to play. In a game where the players are offered more freedom, however, each individual player's personallity and unique style are able to shine through to an extent.

Let's take New Super Mario Bros Wii as an example. This may sound like an odd example, but if you've ever played it with multiple people, chances are someone in the group had a different way of doing things than the others. Maybe they're bold and make risky jumps, have methods for beating specific enemies, take their time on certain segments over others or just have some weird quirks that they like to do. The results are great.

I know it's Sonic we're talking about here, but it's more easily observable when you're playing a game with other people, and Mario seemed like a good example.

The player was able to do things their own way in the old games to a certain extent, which feels lost when there's a de facto BEST way of doing anything. There are branching paths, but if you got to one it says nothing more than that you had the needed reaction time or played the level before.

This seems nitpicky to harp on one point so much but I really feel like modern 2D Sonic misses out on this kind of freedom.

[JezMM]

Okay, here's another random idea from me when thinking about how Modern moves could remain relevant in 2D - The Light Speed Dash.

Firstly, to make it work in the 2D plain, the speed you'd travel through the rings would be nowhere NEAR light-speed. More on par with Sonic's general running speed, no boost. Should probably rename it just "Ring Dash" instead.

And, pushing Y (or whatever) again would perform a "Ring Dash Cancel" - that is Sonic becomes disconnected from the rings and continues moving in whatever direction he was being taken beforehand.

Behold the possibilities of the Ring Dash Cancel:

...Down there somewhere. Stupid indenting thing...

Now granted, this same policy COULD be done with some kind of hanging-rail device gimmick, or even grind rails, but I like the idea that you can "break" a ring dash gimmick, especially if you used them with level design to create the possibility to destroy the possibility of one path by making another send you through a portion of the required rings.

Oh, and I'm aware this puzzle is almost impossible to predict when playing the first time. Some kind of context-sensitive camera zoom-outs (as used in Sonic Colours Wii) would be required to be fair to the player.

This could also be used in 3D but I imagine the possibilities would be too unbearable for the human mind to safely predict. It gets rid of the automation of the light speed dash while even making it become relevant in the classic book of physics-based gameplay, since momentum and direction is kept.

Edited January 11, 2012 by JezMM

[Diogenes]

I like the boost, but since several of us are so keen on ripping out it's intestines and burning it's entrails while sticking it's head on a pike

I prefer to think of it as putting a poor sick animal out of its misery.

[-Mark-]

Personally it annoys me that Colours DS almost got it perfectly right but then Generations DS made it a step backwards. I'm all for the Modern 2D games carry over Sonics full movset from the HD console games, but they really need to be consistent with how it controls.

I mean, in Colours DS you used R to duck/ slide, down+B to stomp. In generations 3DS, you press down to duck/ slide and down+B to stomp. Now, neither of these are as practical as the 'B slides and automatically stomps if you're in mid-air' setup that the HD games use, but Generations 3DS made sliding worse by making you use the d-pad/ stick.

So yeah, ideally I'd say copy Sonic's moveset (and most importantly controls for said moveset) directly from the console versions, but make sure he still has the bloody spin dash. It annoys me to no end that you can't do it in Unleashed/ Generations, because whilst the boost would arguably replace it, it doesn't do much good when you run out of boost at a really steep incline.

Then they just need to focus on good level design. You know, more like the Rush games and less like Generations 3DS. Colours DS' level design would have been quite nice, had the Wisps not been so bloody compulsory.

[Chaos Warp]

I would love to see a 2d Modern game, just minus boost and plus rolling physics. I feel boost works better in 3d then it does in 2d.

[krazystitch]

I would love to see a 2d Modern game, just minus boost and plus rolling physics. I feel boost works better in 3d then it does in 2d.

This.

Boosting wasn't made for 2D games. When it comes to those, I think it's better to stick to the spindash along with actually making the physics work right.

[-Mark-]

Despite the fact it actually originated in 2D games. D:

I do agree that it works much better in 3D since you can actually see what's ahead of you, but I don't mind it in 2D so long as the level design takes this into account and is fair.

[Kuzu]

I honestly think 2D is in a more dire situation than 3D to be honest, think about it. Up until Rush, there was nothing wrong with the 2D games, they had a decent amount of playable characters, and the level design was still mostly Genesis like, but then Rush comes in and shits on all of that. Granted Dimps probably wanted to expand on what the previous games did, but it did in such a maligned and messed up way. Striping down the cast from S/T/K/A/C to just Sonic & Blaze, I mean what was the point? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have all six playable? I understand it was Blaze's debut and she needed focus, but it could have been done without axing everyone else. The boost is largely a problem in 2D just for the fact that unlike Unleashed/Colors/Generations you can't see whats' in front of you, so using the boost almost always leads to death, particularly in the later stages.

[Indigo Rush]

I think the way Rush handled it is extremely fun and addicting. Definitely not the same as the classics in regards to gameplay, but I think it's pretty solid.

But if we want to expand on the Genesis style to fit the modern games while keeping the same kind of physics and level progression, you're going to end up with something different.

It's kind of amazing how many ways you can work Sonic into different kinds of games.

[Kuzu]

I think the way Rush handled it is extremely fun and addicting. Definitely not the same as the classics in regards to gameplay, but I think it's pretty solid.

But if we want to expand on the Genesis style to fit the modern games while keeping the same kind of physics and level progression, you're going to end up with something different.

It's kind of amazing how many ways you can work Sonic into different kinds of games.

I kind of think that's a problem as much as a benefit, yeah Sonic is able to fit in different kinds of games, but because of that its kind of schizophrenic with its gameplay, I mean only recently have we been consistent with a gameplay style but its so radically different from what Sonic was back in the day, most people are turned off by it.

You have people like Dio who hate Modern gameplay because they feel its a shallow way of portraying Sonic having just raw speed for the sake of speed and not doing anything interesting with it outside of constantly moving forward and would prefer Classic gameplay.

Then you have people like yourself who adore Modern Gameplay because of the sense of speed and thrill it hands out and how Sonic's faster than ever, and not having that in subsequent games would feel like a step backwards. I mean after the past three games, nobody really expects the next one to have Sonic slower.

I wish there was a way we could just have both, a game that has the raw adrenaline rush of the Modern games with the amount of depth from the Classic games. Have those two, and almost no one can complain, but unfortunately the series seems to stick too far to one end of the extreme.

[Chaos Warp]

I kind of think that's a problem as much as a benefit, yeah Sonic is able to fit in different kinds of games, but because of that its kind of schizophrenic with its gameplay, I mean only recently have we been consistent with a gameplay style but its so radically different from what Sonic was back in the day, most people are turned off by it.

You have people like Dio who hate Modern gameplay because they feel its a shallow way of portraying Sonic having just raw speed for the sake of speed and not doing anything interesting with it outside of constantly moving forward and would prefer Classic gameplay.

Then you have people like yourself who adore Modern Gameplay because of the sense of speed and thrill it hands out and how Sonic's faster than ever, and not having that in subsequent games would feel like a step backwards. I mean after the past three games, nobody really expects the next one to have Sonic slower.

I wish there was a way we could just have both, a game that has the raw adrenaline rush of the Modern games with the amount of depth from the Classic games. Have those two, and almost no one can complain, but unfortunately the series seems to stick too far to one end of the extreme.

That's why I propose adding rolling, but keeping a nerfed version of the boost........

But that's for another thread.

[Ferno]

I wish there was a way we could just have both, a game that has the raw adrenaline rush of the Modern games with the amount of depth from the Classic games. Have those two, and almost no one can complain, but unfortunately the series seems to stick too far to one end of the extreme.

Generations. :V

*sent to another dimension, then killed by monkeys*

Edited January 11, 2012 by Inferno

[Kuzu]

Generations. :V

They're treated as two completely different playstyles instead of just one.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I wish there was a way we could just have both, a game that has the raw adrenaline rush of the Modern games with the amount of depth from the Classic games. Have those two, and almost no one can complain, but unfortunately the series seems to stick too far to one end of the extreme.

Sonic Team has always had that difficulty of not finding a good balance; its always too much or too little.

[Kuzu]

Sonic Team has always had that difficulty of not finding a good balance; its always too much or too little.

Its a shame they don't have an American division for the fans to voice their criticisms to, aside from what the media says:characters, story, etc. They have no idea what we want and how to deliver, they're basically shooting blind when the target is right in their face.

[Nitwit_Speed]

One of the things that really bugs me about the boost gameplay style is that it is designed in such a way that the same gameplay engine can be used for 3D and 2D, resulting in awkward feeling 2D and 3D segments. Sonic Generations 3D is the boost gameplay but without 3D, so they made it feel looser* and, well, better. The boost is great in 2D as we saw in both Rushes, Colors DS, and Generations 3D. It's embarrassing that i don't actually have any real, tangible points to press besides it *feels* right, and i'm willing to argue that if they scrapped the 2D sections in the next 3D boost game and actually went to the Unleashed design documents, reviewed what it was that they did to compensate 2D and 3D, and remove all of them, those games would be a lot better.

Generations 3D, getting back on topic, really nailed it. Using the air dash the way it's used to fly through the air is extremely liberating, and being able to press down to slide and crouch makes a lot of sense. Boost gameplay in 2D has been done, and it's a heck of a lot better than the chimera it aims to emulate.

*Making a game feel loose is a very different beast in 2D and 3D which is why games that do both tend to feel clunky. Clunky may be annoying but it's consistent no matter how many planes you're clunking across.

Edited January 12, 2012 by santalord767