111 replies to this topic

[Tatsumaki]

Not that I don't want Knuckles to prominent again, but why does he need to come first above everyone else? Can't everybody just get a bigger role than they already have in one game if possible?

Everyone needs to be developed, as soon as possible. However, I just personally consider Knuckles to be developed above the others because other than he's part of the Classic series, he is an important character. The fact that he's the guardian of the Master Emerald and can sense Chaos Emeralds (if I'm not mistaken) is more than enough to make him at the very least an extremely important character in the Sonic Universe. And to see him get dumbed down to a guy who just derps a lot is not fine with me.

Edited by Tatsumaki, 03 February 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Everyone needs to be developed, as soon as possible. However, I just personally consider Knuckles to be developed above the others because other than he's part of the Classic series, he is an important character. The fact that he's the guardian of the Master Emerald and can sense Chaos Emeralds (if I'm not mistaken) is more than enough to make him at the very least an extremely important character in the Sonic Universe. And to see him get dumbed down to a guy who just derps a lot is not fine with me.

The Chaotix, Rouge, Blaze, and Silver are important too ya know, yeah not as important sure, but they still have significant roles in the Sonic universe, and contribute just as much as Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles when they're all involved. I know everyone can't get an expanded role all at once, but simply focusing on Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles when we have more than just them seems like a cop out, especially when its for reasons like "Oh, they came first, or they're classic" I mean if they're the primary playable characters, then yeah I wouldn't complain, but in terms of character and importance I see no reason to restrict it to just those three and no one else. You can at least have them in an important supporting role.

Edited by Shadic Claus, 03 February 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Tatsumaki]

The Chaotix, Rouge, Blaze, and Silver are important too ya know, yeah not as important sure, but they still have significant roles in the Sonic universe, and contribute just as much as Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles when they're all involved. I know everyone can't get an expanded role all at once, but simply focusing on Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles when we have more than just them seems like a cop out, especially when its for reasons like "Oh, they came first, or they're classic" I mean if they're the primary playable characters, then yeah I wouldn't complain, but in terms of character and importance I see no reason to restrict it to just those three and no one else. You can at least have them in an important supporting role.

I have the same wishes as well. I suppose they can develop all of them at once. But they shouldn't focus too much on the other characters. While I do want all Sonic characters to have some depth, the less important characters shouldn't be more deep than the more important ones themselves. For example, I find Neville Longbottom from Harry Potter a million times better written than Harry Potter himself. As much as I love the books, that's unbalanced writing. I'm cool that they give all the characters some love, but don't give too much love on the others, because then the purpose of the main characters would be moot. Which is pretty much what Tails used to suffer post Heroes, and Knuckles since SA2.

[Diogenes]

You're only counting the main series then,

No. I may focus on them, but I am not intentionally disregarding any game.

06 was complete shit, and every game afterwards are pretty much Sonic centric, and even so I hardly think a character not having a significant role in a few games afterwards completely diminishes their character.

It's not that those games diminish it, but that it never existed in the first place.

Sonic & Shadow's rivalry is completely secondary to their characters ,and only shows up when both of them are involved in the same plot,

When is this, exactly? In what games, in what scenes, does their rivalry show up? Unless you're going to include every time they fought, I would say the list is depressingly short.

but that however doesn't make them any less of rivals,

If it's secondary to everything else, then yes, it does. A rivalry that doesn't affect the plot, or that isn't given plot time by the writers, is not as deep as a rivalry that is.

[Knuckles] was designed to be an Antagonist, but not on the same level as Eggman, so I guess that, more or less, defines rival,

It really doesn't.

You know what we haven't seen? Sonic as a tool for a villain.

Now obviously Sonic isn't going to work for a villain out of his own free will so I kind of thought of how things could pan out if Sonic were captured and mind controlled in the video game canon.

Mind control is...ugh. It's just such a cheap way to manufacture drama. How much weight does it really have when one party is not in control of their actions? It just becomes a bunch of "bluhhh I don't want to hurt you!!!" and then he does anyway, and it's not like this is a series where any lasting injury is going to come of it so you don't even get that. If I see heroes fighting each other, I want both sides to have a reason for it.

Edited by Diogenes, 03 February 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Sean]

Mind-control is a terrible tactic and it always turns out in predictable ways.

Doing a bunch of tasks in a game that ultimately end up aiding the villain's goals without you realizing it is a better one if pulled off expertly. And not just that, but rub it into the hero's face that things would have been better off had he not done anything to begin with. Still a bit of a cliché, but it has more ways of going about it.

More importantly, it would dent Sonic's ego, seeing as how his fights with Robotnik are a battle of egos just as much as they are for the fate of the planet.

[Dr. Crusher]

I'm not a mind control fan either. Partly for being one of the cliches I'm less fond of, and because certain art sites have turned it into a fetish and ruined it for me personally.

Mind-control is a terrible tactic and it always turns out in predictable ways.

Doing a bunch of tasks in a game that ultimately end up aiding the villain's goals without you realizing it is a better one if pulled off expertly. And not just that, but rub it into the hero's face that things would have been better off had he not done anything to begin with. Still a bit of a cliché, but it has more ways of going about it.

I'm 50/50 on that one when it comes to games. I like my villains to be intelligent and manipulative, but I don't like it when it's essentially "Oh, so the whole game excluding the final was for nothing. And said finale is less a dramatic clash and more fixing the mistake I just made, a mistake that wouldn't have happened had I didn't do anything. That's just fucking great. I feel so achieved."

Edited by Dr. Crusher, 04 February 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[Sean]

It doesn't have to be true when the villain gloats about how the hero should have done nothing. Obviously the hero's involvement should always be important (unless you're writing a dark humor or very cynical story), so it's just another taunt tactic. But do make it so that the hero's actions end up furthering the villain's goals regardless.

It'd be nice to have one moment in the game where Sonic's actions really do end up worsening a situation rather than improving it, which can add fuel to the fire. But I agree that the whole plot shouldn't amount to that.

[Dr. Crusher]

In that case, it should still be done carefully. It'd still feel unsatisfactory if it amounts to the hero being an idiot.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

I have the same wishes as well. I suppose they can develop all of them at once. But they shouldn't focus too much on the other characters. While I do want all Sonic characters to have some depth, the less important characters shouldn't be more deep than the more important ones themselves.

That is not how you divide character focus, or at the very least a very one-sided way to go about it.

The less important characters should be those who have the less impact on the given plot, meaning that Knuckles would be considered a less important character if he barely does anything or isn't even needed over someone like say Omega if he were to be more important. Character focus should be determined by who is best suited for the focus, not by who's the more important because of a hierarchy of who came first or who is used more. And a character is good by their character, not screentime.

Mind-control is a terrible tactic and it always turns out in predictable ways.

Funny, because it didn't come out very predictable when Tails was mind-controlled in Colors.

In fact, you could say that towards anything regarding the more common elements in storytelling.

Doing a bunch of tasks in a game that ultimately end up aiding the villain's goals without you realizing it is a better one if pulled off expertly. And not just that, but rub it into the hero's face that things would have been better off had he not done anything to begin with. Still a bit of a cliché, but it has more ways of going about it.

That sounds absolutely no different from the Mind Control cliche, and in either case it's a matter of how you pull it off. I don't think I need to go through a complete list of how to do it either.

[VEDJ-F]

Funny, because it didn't come out very predictable when Tails was mind-controlled in Colors.

It didn't come out as anything when Tails was mind-controlled in Colours. The only other example in the series was pretty predictable though, and then there's the added issue of whether Sonic being mind-controlled is a contradiction of Unleashed or not.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

It didn't come out as anything when Tails was mind-controlled in Colours.

Well, that only adds to it being less predictable than expect, no?

The only other example in the series was pretty predictable though, and then there's the added issue of whether Sonic being mind-controlled is a contradiction of Unleashed or not.

Wait, what other example?

And I'm not sure how Unleashed would count as being mind-controlled when he became a werehog mainly as a result of having the emerald's power ripped out of his superform. That could even fall in a different category separate from mind-control, and more into a state of being out of control as a result of the form if the narrative were to have him not be himself.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 04 February 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[Tatsumaki]

That is not how you divide character focus, or at the very least a very one-sided way to go about it.

The less important characters should be those who have the less impact on the given plot, meaning that Knuckles would be considered a less important character if he barely does anything or isn't even needed over someone like say Omega if he were to be more important. Character focus should be determined by who is best suited for the focus, not by who's the more important because of a hierarchy of who came first or who is used more. And a character is good by their character, not screentime.

I agree with you to a certain extent. For example, Knuckles shouldn't even be involved at all in Colors, as the Chaos Emeralds have nothing to do with the plot at all. However, for a character that used to be so important in the series just decline in not only importance, but character quality as well (depending on your definition of quality) is just plain shocking. Especially the fact that the prominent object in almost the entire series are the Chaos Emeralds, so there have been so missed opportunities for Knuckles to shine, doing what he does best. Instead, it just ends up getting squandered.The same could also be mentioned for all the characters in the Sonic series, like Rouge and Big.

All characters really need work, but in my opinion, Knuckles needs the most polishing of all because of how they're horrendously writing him nowadays.

EDIT:

Also, having seen the cutscenes in Colors (I never could play it, I am a sad fan), Tails' scene being mind controlled was seriously bad. I know some may like it, but... Not my cup of tea. Didn't grasp my attention or play with my feelings at all. It just happened.

Edited by Tatsumaki, 04 February 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Diogenes]

Funny, because it didn't come out very predictable when Tails was mind-controlled in Colors.

Largely because nothing happened. The scene didn't exist for Eggman to mind control Tails; it existed to establish mind control as part of Eggman's plan, so you later realize the resort is basically a mind control cannon pointed at Earth. Characters actually being mind controlled wasn't important.

That sounds absolutely no different from the Mind Control cliche

The difference is that the characters still choose to take those actions. Whether they're tricked, coerced, or just mistaken, the characters still have some amount of control over their fate. Whereas with mind control...they don't, by definition.

I don't think I need to go through a complete list of how to do it either.

I really would like to hear how you think a mind control plot could work.

[VEDJ-F]

Wait, what other example?

Sonic Pinball Party.



I'd hope to God that future games have better writing standards than an insignificant spinoff, though.

[Diogenes]

Didn't Rivals 2 have some mind control too?

vvv Eh, possession, mind control, same difference as far as this is concerned.

Edited by Diogenes, 04 February 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[VEDJ-F]

Didn't Rivals 2 have some mind control too?

That was possession by Ifrit. Not sure if Eggman could do that personally.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Largely because nothing happened. The scene didn't exist for Eggman to mind control Tails; it existed to establish mind control as part of Eggman's plan, so you later realize the resort is basically a mind control cannon pointed at Earth. Characters actually being mind controlled wasn't important.

That sounds dodgy. You'd think that him mind-controlling someone would've at least had more going for it, because while it established mind control as part of Eggman's plan he intended to test drive it on Sonic. Tails just so happened to move Sonic out of the line of fire and get hit by the beam. Now given how little plot was put in the game for that to be realized, I won't say that should've been important, but it just puts that into the question of how that would've went further...if that makes any sense.

The difference is that the characters still choose to take those actions. Whether they're tricked, coerced, or just mistaken, the characters still have some amount of control over their fate. Whereas with mind control...they don't, by definition.

And how does that make it a better cliche? Because as far as I look at it (as I do with a lot of things, naturally), it's a matter of how you pull it off than it is simply because of what it is.

I really would like to hear how you think a mind control plot could work.

I'm not entirely sure how I could convince you. But hey, no use in not trying.

So here's my idea. Now I'm more fond of technological means of mind control. Typically, in these cases if you destroy the source of the mind control, then the victim is free from the influence. But how about instead of having it to where you have to destroy the device to free the character's mind, destroying that device does absolutely nothing and the character is still they way the are when they were mind-controlled? As a result, it's much harder for the character to revert back to normal, because you've destroyed the one thing that could have brought him back. I'd say it blurs the line between mind control, because now there's nothing controlling the character's mind for it to be "mind control"; however, while the character is now acting on their own actions, they're still not their original self.

In Sonic's case, a Eggman captures him and puts a mind control chip or device on him that makes him loyal to Eggman. He starts attacking his friends under Eggman's orders while helping Eggman conquer the world. His friends see he's mind control and think that destroying the device will bring Sonic back to normal. They destroy the device, but Sonic still attacks them regardless and continues to work for Eggman. And now his friends have to work out another way to bring Sonic back.

That's one way you could go about a mind control plot. I've got more, but I just have a mental picture of it and it's hard to put it in words. Plus they're a bit more over the top, so they'd need more finesse in writing.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 04 February 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Diogenes]

That sounds dodgy. You'd think that him mind-controlling someone would've at least had more going for it, because while it established mind control as part of Eggman's plan he intended to test drive it on Sonic. Tails just so happened to move Sonic out of the line of fire and get hit by the beam.

Well for Eggman, yes, he was presumably intending to get a nice blue bodyguard and eliminate his biggest enemy in one fell swoop (or at least have Tails rough him up, when he missed), but from the writers' perspective, the intent was just to set up mind control as A Thing.

And how does that make it a better cliche?

Because I think the ability of character to make choices is one of the most important elements of a story, and if you remove that ability, they cease to be characters at all (or alternatively, they become completely different characters). Take the "Sonic is forced to fight Tails" plot. If it's due to mind control, then Sonic, as a character, leaves the picture completely. You can get some mileage out of Tails having to fight his hero, but we get nothing out of Sonic; he's gone, replaced by some other character, until the mind control wears off. But if Sonic's in full control of himself, we do learn about him, maybe even more than we learn about Tails (the previously mentioned "fighting his hero" thing still applies). If he's been coerced, we learn what breaks him. If he chooses on his own, we learn what he values as much as or more than his friends. There's a struggle there, something more meaningful than "RAAAA I MUST RESIST THE HYPNORAY!"

But how about instead of having it to where you have to destroy the device to free the character's mind, destroying that device does absolutely nothing and the character is still they way the are when they were mind-controlled?

Nothing changes. It's the same situation, only the solution is somewhat harder. And I can't imagine any solution that couldn't have been justified to work just as well on normal techno-hypnosis or magical mind control.

however, while the character is now acting own their own actions, they're not their original self.

Then it's not "their own actions", is it? Sonic is not Sonic; there is a different character living in his head.

[Sora]

I think a story where sonic does more damage than good sounds cool. Like not mind controlled or anything but say is shot by a laser or something by Eggman altering his mind somewhat. creating asome sort of fake reality in his mind where "Eggman" Has done this evil and sonic like always has to stop him.(the player also wouldn't notice until certain points make it obvious.) When reality he's really just doing damage to the world with Eggman telling him what to do. on a few occasions something like him getting a glimps of reality but then goes back. Something like that, or eggman justs tricks him into thinking he's doing something good.

Edited by The Amazing Spiderman, 04 February 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

It's not that those games diminish it, but that it never existed in the first place.

Based on what? The fact that they're not trying to kill each other every time they're onscreen together?

When is this, exactly? In what games, in what scenes, does their rivalry show up? Unless you're going to include every time they fought, I would say the list is depressingly short.

Its not even that short, considering its at least 8 games, and considering their rivalry only shows up when they fight(Which is pretty much every game they're in together) its not as insignificant as you seem to be making it.

If it's secondary to everything else, then yes, it does. A rivalry that doesn't affect the plot, or that isn't given plot time by the writers, is not as deep as a rivalry that is.

If the rivalry isn't the center of the plot, it has no business affecting the plot at all, and its not even the plot it has an affect on, its the characters involved in the plot and the rivalry that they have. Just because neither are obsessing over the other, really doesn't make them any less.

It really doesn't.

I think you're taking the term way too literally, in its broadest terms, rivalry is simply defined by a character who clashes with the protagonist, but is not necessarily evil which pretty much defined Knuckles role in Sonic 3 & K, he may not have been evil, but he was an antagonist who constantly got in your way and hindered your progress, while Eggman was playing the Villain. A character doesn't have to be competing with another character for it to be completely defined as a rivalry.