111 replies to this topic

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Well for Eggman, yes, he was presumably intending to get a nice blue bodyguard and eliminate his biggest enemy in one fell swoop (or at least have Tails rough him up, when he missed), but from the writers' perspective, the intent was just to set up mind control as A Thing.

But in either case, did anyone actually predict that Eggman would run out of energy to maintain that control? Or were things things regarding the mind control actually predictable both the major and minor elements? Because that's the whole reason in why I brought it up, and the point I'm making is that these things don't have to be predictable.

Because I think the ability of character to make choices is one of the most important elements of a story, and if you remove that ability, they cease to be characters at all (or alternatively, they become completely different characters). Take the "Sonic is forced to fight Tails" plot. If it's due to mind control, then Sonic, as a character, leaves the picture completely. You can get some mileage out of Tails having to fight his hero, but we get nothing out of Sonic; he's gone, replaced by some other character, until the mind control wears off. But if Sonic's in full control of himself, we do learn about him, maybe even more than we learn about Tails (the previously mentioned "fighting his hero" thing still applies). If he's been coerced, we learn what breaks him. If he chooses on his own, we learn what he values as much as or more than his friends. There's a struggle there, something more meaningful than "RAAAA I MUST RESIST THE HYPNORAY!"

I agree, except I'd go further and say that's a matter of how the narrative handles it and it's not as if mind control automatically makes it less dynamic than it is if the character was blackmailed, or coerced to put it lightly, into doing something they wouldn't do. In either case, the character's choices is due to a lack of control over the situation; mind-control just reduces the degree far lower than coercion does.

The one in control is the one (or at least has the more control) who coercing the character to do what they wouldn't want to do, or the one holding the device that reduces resistance to nil. If you want to be more analytical about it, there's always a matter of said character finding a way to regain control in both cases, be it his friends finding a way to free him, or him freeing himself by his own means. How they choose to do so is depends on how the narrative handles it, and in both cases it can be predictable as it can be unpredictable.

Now if he chooses on his own accord, then it's a matter of why he's doing it. A general rule of thumb in how I look at it is this: the more control a character has, the more they can bend things to their favor; conversely, the less control they have, the more rigid the odds are against them.

Nothing changes. It's the same situation, only the solution is somewhat harder. And I can't imagine any solution that couldn't have been justified to work just as well on normal techno-hypnosis or magical mind control.

What change? I was never intending to change the situation than I was to show how I would make a plot with a mind controlled Sonic work, as you asked. The only intent was to show that it doesn't have to be as predictable as Sean expressed. And if it is...well, then there's not a lot to call different anymore when you can call it predictable. To say nothing of how you would go about solving the problem now that it's much harder as you've said.

Then it's not "their own actions", is it? Sonic is not Sonic; there is a different character living in his head.

You're making that far too black and white than it really is when it's actually in the gray area. No, it's not their own actions, but yes it is Sonic regardless because he's not being controlled to do them against his will as mind-control would have him do.

Sonic may not be himself as he normally is, but it's the same character causing the havoc. If Sonic were still under someone's actual control by directly forcing his mind to carry out the destruction, then without a doubt it's a different character in his head. But if someone can no longer control his actions in that manner and he's STILL doing, its not exactly something to mark off as a different character. No, he wouldn't do that if he was, but no one has a leash on him telling him "Do this or I'll make you do it" anymore.

Or if you want, you could call it a different Sonic.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 04 February 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I have the same wishes as well. I suppose they can develop all of them at once. But they shouldn't focus too much on the other characters. While I do want all Sonic characters to have some depth, the less important characters shouldn't be more deep than the more important ones themselves. For example, I find Neville Longbottom from Harry Potter a million times better written than Harry Potter himself. As much as I love the books, that's unbalanced writing. I'm cool that they give all the characters some love, but don't give too much love on the others, because then the purpose of the main characters would be moot. Which is pretty much what Tails used to suffer post Heroes, and Knuckles since SA2.

A main character is a main character, and a supporting character is a supporting character how much depth and importance they have is completely proportionate to their role in the story. It shouldn't matter if the Chaotix have a significant amount of depth and importance if they're only role is to support Sonic and co., and it shouldn't matter if Sonic or Knuckles lack the interesting traits that other characters may have. Having such a limited mind set prevents writers from making interesting characters.

[DuraV]

“….and then it was revealed that Sonic had never left planet wisp.”


---
I find mind control to be more interesting when they exaggerate existing personality traits of the character rather than turning them into a zombie. Then again there are a lot of other ways to create flaws and add conflict that wouldn't require an uphill battle to justify.

[Diogenes]

Based on what? The fact that they're not trying to kill each other every time they're onscreen together?

No, it's because their fights have been based almost entirely on either being enemies or "everyone fights everyone". There's no real clash on a personal level.

Its not even that short, considering its at least 8 games, and considering their rivalry only shows up when they fight(Which is pretty much every game they're in together) its not as insignificant as you seem to be making it.

Not every time they fight is an example of a rivalry.

If the rivalry isn't the center of the plot, it has no business affecting the plot at all,

Anything with more complexity than Dick and Jane can handle more than one plot point. Isn't this a series that used to weave together several different stories into one?

Just because neither are obsessing over the other, really doesn't make them any less.

No, the fact that there is basically nothing between them is what makes it less.

I think you're taking the term way too literally, in its broadest terms,

In broadest terms it's vague to the point of being useless. I am interested in well-written rivals, not ticking some barebones rival checkbox.

But in either case, did anyone actually predict that Eggman would run out of energy to maintain that control? Or were things things regarding the mind control actually predictable both the major and minor elements? Because that's the whole reason in why I brought it up, and the point I'm making is that these things don't have to be predictable.

Okay, so it is not 100% predictable every time. They still tend to be predictable shit.

I agree, except I'd go further and say that's a matter of how the narrative handles it and it's not as if mind control automatically makes it less dynamic than it is if the character was blackmailed, or coerced to put it lightly, into doing something they wouldn't do. In either case, the character's choices is due to a lack of control over the situation; mind-control just reduces the degree far lower than coercion does.

It reduces it to zero because they do not have control. Reducing a character's control means showing how they act under pressure. Eliminating it means they become an object, or simply cease to be. What is a character, if he is not responsible for his actions? A puppet doesn't come alive when you pull its strings; it's just an object, no matter how much it moves.

there's always a matter of said character finding a way to regain control in both cases, be it his friends finding a way to free him,

I just want you to look at this and see if you can figure out why I'm holding my head in my hands.

What change?

It doesn't change the problems with mind control plots, and it doesn't change the story in any meaningful way. Could I have predicted that destroying the chip wouldn't free Sonic? Maybe not. Does it make the story any better? No, not really. It just inserts a false goal before, most likely, the usual power of friendship "arg I shake off the mind rays" solution.

You're making that far too black and white than it really is when it's actually in the gray area. No, it's not their own actions, but yes it is Sonic regardless because he's not being controlled to do them against his will as mind-control would have him do.

Whether it's a hypnotist giving you orders, a demon wearing you like a meat suit, or the effects of a mind control chip persisting after its been destroyed, it's not you. If "Sonic" would willingly serve Eggman and fight his friends, regardless of whether he is actually being controlled to do so, that's not Sonic.

Sonic may not be himself as he normally is, but it's the same character causing the havoc.

Same body. Not the same mind. And that's the part that matters. The chip created some new personality that overwrote or overpowered Sonic's personality. Now if you wanted to explore that, having some hitchhiker inside a character's head, wrestling for control, maybe even addressing the question of whether this hitchhiker counts as a "person", that would make for an interesting story (though too smart and subtle for a Sonic game). But mind control? Mind control's boring old shit.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Okay, so it is not 100% predictable every time. They still tend to be predictable shit.

As can any plot, dude.

It reduces it to zero because they do not have control.

Again, it depends on the narrative, because not all mind control reduces the victim to zero control especially if they can show some degree of resistance. In some cases, yes, the mind control eventually reduces it to zero even if they resist at first, or even instantaneous. In other cases, however, the mind control has a limited or even zero effect on other characters because their mind is too strong to control.

Star Wars is a good example, as users of the force who actually use mind control can only do so on weak-minded beings. Stronger minds are even harder to control, to the point where it may take multiple masters of the force to to use their abilities on 1 person in order to get a similar effect on strong minded individuals.

Although that's more of a plot element than it is the basis of a plot there are other examples to go around. In some cases, instead of the user's mind being controlled, it's just their body, but the circumstances are similar.

I just want you to look at this and see if you can figure out why I'm holding my head in my hands.

Drawing a blank here, cuz I don't know.

It doesn't change the problems with mind control plots, and it doesn't change the story in any meaningful way. Could I have predicted that destroying the chip wouldn't free Sonic? Maybe not. Does it make the story any better? No, not really. It just inserts a false goal before, most likely, the usual power of friendship "arg I shake off the mind rays" solution.

Well it certainly doesn't make the story any worse, but as I've said before, it depends on the narrative.

Whether it's a hypnotist giving you orders, a demon wearing you like a meat suit, or the effects of a mind control chip persisting after its been destroyed, it's not you. If "Sonic" would willingly serve Eggman and fight his friends, regardless of whether he is actually being controlled to do so, that's not Sonic.

Yes, it is, because if it wasn't then you definitely wouldn't be calling him "Sonic."

That "Sonic" just happens to be a new Sonic suppressing the old one, but it is still Sonic nonetheless. If a hypnotist is giving you orders, it's the hypnotist; if a demon is possessing you, it's the demon; if a mind control chip is giving you commands, it's whoever is controlling the chip; but if nothing is controlling or influencing your mind and you still happen to do things you wouldn't originally do before, it may be a whole different "you," but it is still you and nothing or no one else. The old "you" just happens to not be around anymore, for whatever reason. If that's not the case, the who else would it be if it isn't "you" doing the things without someone or something controlling "your" actions?

Same body. Not the same mind. And that's the part that matters. The chip created some new personality that overwrote or overpowered Sonic's personality. Now if you wanted to explore that, having some hitchhiker inside a character's head, wrestling for control, maybe even addressing the question of whether this hitchhiker counts as a "person", that would make for an interesting story (though too smart and subtle for a Sonic game).

Doesn't sound like a bad idea.

But mind control? Mind control's boring old shit.

Then try to spice it up.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 04 February 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

No, it's because their fights have been based almost entirely on either being enemies or "everyone fights everyone". There's no real clash on a personal level.

And does their really need to be? Does there absolutely need to be this deep seated root of hatred in both parties and both of them actively trying to kill each other, or one up each other for it to be considered a genuine rivalry?

Not every time they fight is an example of a rivalry.

And not every rivalry has to be this blood feud between two parties.

Anything with more complexity than Dick and Jane can handle more than one plot point. Isn't this a series that used to weave together several different stories into one?

I'm not saying it can't be a plot point, just that it not being central point of their characters is absolutely necessary.

No, the fact that there is basically nothing between them is what makes it less.

What constitutes as nothing? The two obviously aren't exactly bff's, but at the same time they aren't worst enemies either, they have enough mutual respect for each other to realize they have different ideas on how to do things and will occasionally conflict with the other, but have no problem helping the other out in a pinch. That's not exactly what I'd call nothing.

In broadest terms it's vague to the point of being useless. I am interested in well-written rivals, not ticking some barebones rival checkbox.

How is it useless, I could really careless what you're interested in, I'm more concerned about what the series has already established and why apparently that isn't good enough for some different meaning of "rivalry" that you have.

[TNT]

Sup everybody?
I think you're all thinking WAY too hard about all this, I think I have a pretty good grasp on which characters would be best for the series.

You have to give the games more variations towards playable characters, but keep that count to a minimum.


These Characters can be chosen to play as through the SAME levels as Sonic, just like the old Classic games

Metal = Sonic's Rival (exactly like Sonic but a robot great for versus(racing))

Knuckles = Slower, but stronger and easier to control version of Sonic (can glide, fight, and focus on moves and strength)

Tails = Slower, but easier to control version of Sonic that can fly (good flying, like in Sonic Adventure 1)

Silver = Almost a completely new character to give variation to gameplay, but still goes through the same levels, but in a mixture of almost all characters (Flys likes Tails not like in 2006, runs slowly but can switch to hovering to accelerate, obvious mind powers to combat foes (like mind control, telekinesis, paralyzing, etc))

QUICK SUMMARY (Out of 10)

Speed / Strength / Flying / Control / Moves

Sonic =10 / 8 / 5 / 7 / 5

Metal = 10 / 8 / 7 / 5/ 5

Knuckles = 5 / 9 / 4 / 8 / 9

Tails = 4 / 3 / 8 / 9 / 2

Silver = 3 / 7 / 10 / 8 / 8

Speed = how fast characters move and perform actions

Strength = how strong characters are by how much damage they can deal out to the stages and enemies

Flying = how well characters can remain airborne by jumping, hovering, or flying and how well they land

Control = how easy characters are to move around and how fluid their actions are (running, flying, etc)

Moves = how many actions each character can execute (jump, run, fly, punch, kick, swim, grab, etc)

Silver is tricky because of the many things he can do, he has 4 speeds from slowest to fastest: 1st is running, his default; 2nd is his hovering can be toggled back and forth from running; 3rd is flying, like Tails he is faster in the air; and 4th is air boost, like in his entrance in 2006 he can charge up a boost and fly extremely fast in the air for a short duration - I put his flying speeds into flying and his running into speed

Edited by TNT, 04 February 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[MarcelloF]

You're making Tails and Knuckles way too slow.

[TNT]

You're making Tails and Knuckles way too slow.

All right man lol what do you think they should be?

I kinda didn't know what to put for them, you can't even play as them now-n-days

[Azure Yakuzu]

Sup everybody?
I think you're all thinking WAY too hard about all this, I think I have a pretty good grasp on which characters would be best for the series.

You have to give the games more variations towards playable characters, but keep that count to a minimum.


These Characters can be chosen to play as through the SAME levels as Sonic, just like the old Classic games

Metal = Sonic's Rival (exactly like Sonic but a robot great for versus(racing))

Knuckles = Slower, but stronger and easier to control version of Sonic (can glide, fight, and focus on moves and strength)

Tails = Slower, but easier to control version of Sonic that can fly (good flying, like in Sonic Adventure 1)

Silver = Almost a completely new character to give variation to gameplay, but still goes through the same levels, but in a mixture of almost all characters (Flys likes Tails not like in 2006, runs slowly but can switch to hovering to accelerate, obvious mind powers to combat foes (like mind control, telekinesis, paralyzing, etc))

QUICK SUMMARY (Out of 10)

Speed / Strength / Flying / Control / Moves

Sonic =10 / 8 / 5 / 7 / 5

Metal = 10 / 8 / 7 / 5/ 5

Knuckles = 5 / 9 / 4 / 8 / 9

Tails = 4 / 3 / 8 / 9 / 2

Silver = 3 / 7 / 10 / 8 / 8

Speed = how fast characters move and perform actions

Strength = how strong characters are by how much damage they can deal out to the stages and enemies

Flying = how well characters can remain airborne by jumping, hovering, or flying and how well they land

Control = how easy characters are to move around and how fluid their actions are (running, flying, etc)

Moves = how many actions each character can execute (jump, run, fly, punch, kick, swim, grab, etc)

Silver is tricky because of the many things he can do, he has 4 speeds from slowest to fastest: 1st is running, his default; 2nd is his hovering can be toggled back and forth from running; 3rd is flying, like Tails he is faster in the air; and 4th is air boost, like in his entrance in 2006 he can charge up a boost and fly extremely fast in the air for a short duration - I put his flying speeds into flying and his running into speed

Why do the characters need stats, this isn't Pokemon.

[Tatsumaki]

A main character is a main character, and a supporting character is a supporting character how much depth and importance they have is completely proportionate to their role in the story. It shouldn't matter if the Chaotix have a significant amount of depth and importance if they're only role is to support Sonic and co., and it shouldn't matter if Sonic or Knuckles lack the interesting traits that other characters may have. Having such a limited mind set prevents writers from making interesting characters.

Hence my earlier example about Harry Potter. Neville had little to no involvement in the plot until the later books. Yet I find him to be a million times deeper than Harry, Ron, and Hermione themselves. Unbalanced writing. The main characters must be filled with detail, have depth, character, emotions. And most important of all, be interesting. It's something I see all the time; books, movies, video games, you name it: the main characters are boring, shallow, and makes you want to hate them, while the supporting characters are actually interesting and badass.

I'm not saying, "Screw the supporting characters in Sonic's games, write the main characters better", or vice versa. But if you're going to write the supporting characters well,(when you're actually supposed to, you're not there to write a mess of a shit character, you're here to make the best ones possible) at least make sure that the characters that matter the most are written well, too.

Why do the characters need stats, this isn't Pokemon.

Actually, I agree with this. It could work. And everything needs numbers. Even though it's not visible to the human eye on how these things work, there's always some math involved in video games, no matter what.


I actually like what you did, but it's true, Knuckles and Tails are too slow.

I'd put Tails to a number like 8, and Knuckles, 7.

Edited by Tatsumaki, 04 February 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[TNT]

Why do the characters need stats, this isn't Pokemon.

Well..the're not really stats just a generalization of how similar and different each character will be to one another

Hence my earlier example about Harry Potter. Neville had little to no involvement in the plot until the later books. Yet I find him to be a million times deeper than Harry, Ron, and Hermione themselves. Unbalanced writing. The main characters must be filled with detail, have depth, character, emotions. And most important of all, be interesting. It's something I see all the time; books, movies, video games, you name it: the main characters are boring, shallow, and makes you want to hate them, while the supporting characters are actually interesting and badass.

I'm not saying, "Screw the supporting characters in Sonic's games, write the main characters better", or vice versa. But if you're going to write the supporting characters well,(when you're actually supposed to, you're not there to write a mess of a shit character, you're here to make the best ones possible) at least make sure that the characters that matter the most are written well, too.


Actually, I agree with this. It could work. And everything needs numbers. Even though it's not visible to the human eye on how these things work, there's always some math involved in video games, no matter what.


I actually like what you did, but it's true, Knuckles and Tails are too slow.

I'd put Tails to a number like 8, and Knuckles, 7.

Ok I can see that, but the only problem is how fast Sonic is today with his boost, running on water, and so on. I can't really picture Tails going that fast. He was just about as fast as Sonic in the old Classics, but Sonic has gotten a LOT faster

[Generations (Chaos Warp)]

I might get flamed for this, but I feel Silver has some decent potential. I found his backstory quite interesting (even with how flawed it was), and if they did some retconning and had another time-travel related plot, he could be great. His naive-ness is something that should not be ignored, this is something Archie does right (Among many other things now), and it makes him unique. I could almost see Sonic and Co. teaching his some things about hero-ing and making him less naive through the game, as good character development.

[tsz11]

He was designed to be an Antagonist, but not on the same level as Eggman, so I guess that, more or less, defines rival, its at least somebody who's abilities can be compared to each other, so while Knuckles(or anyone really) doesn't play the rival in a more traditional way, they're abilities rival each other, and I think that's where people got the idea from.


This is a moot point anyway because Sonic & Knuckles are friends now, and don't even fight for serious reasons anymore.

They created Knuckles to be strong. The stuff about Being a Rival was decided somewhat later.

[Cuz]

No, they created Knuckles to be a nuisance, someone who knew the game's location like the back of his hand, who could, and would do anything to impede Sonic's progress. Outside of walking through boulders nothing about him in Sonic 3 screamed strength like he's since developed . He wasn't altogether a powerhouse at first. They gradually built his character up to it.

I'll do the crazy thing, and make a case for Cream's potential. I feel like more character interaction between her and Amy could only help strengthen both their characters. Sort of how Sonic is better for having Tails around, and vice versa. Even with Sonic Team cutting back on the cast since 06' Amy still figures into the plot more often then not so, she could potentally show up here, and there in small roles. That is until Sonic Team feels daring enough to make more use of the cast in general. Cream's so very underused there's still a lot room for character development.

Edited by Cuz, 05 February 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[KazunaRei]

No, they created Knuckles to be a nuisance, someone who knew the game's location like the back of his hand, who could, and would do anything to impede Sonic's progress. Outside of walking through boulders nothing about him in Sonic 3 screamed strength like he's since developed . He wasn't altogether a powerhouse at first. They gradually built his character up to it.

. . . Whut?? Uh oh wow my brain just broke, I can't~. @_@

Um~ Knuckles has always been shown to be powerful, I haven't played that many Sonic games but I've seen enough to get an idea that Knuckles has strength. I mean what about the scene at the end of Lava Reel Act 2? He punched a large boulder down at Sonic. And in the Hidden Palace after Eggman took the Master Emerald he was thrown for a loop after being shocked but still had the strength to punch through a wall.

And then there's the walls breaking as he walks through them. If that isn't a showing of how powerful Knuckles is then . . . :/ *shrugs* I got nothing~.

[Cuz]

Eggman took the Master Emerald he was thrown for a loop after being shocked but still had the strength to punch through a wall.

For a character in this series taking a shock like that isn't much of a surprise.

And then there's the walls breaking as he walks through them. If that isn't a showing of how powerful Knuckles is then . . . :/ *shrugs* I got nothing~.

I always thought those stone walls were put there in the first place, like they weren't all that sold, just piles of rubble Knux put there to hide the passages. I didn't look at him walking through walls, and think "he must be strong" but, rather "he must know where these passages are".
Lava Reef and Hidden Palace are some of the last sections in the game and up until then he'd mostly use switches to cause trouble, still good points. Guess my nostalgia filters just too high when it comes to this one.

Edited by Cuz, 05 February 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Sega DogTagz]

Lava Reef and Hidden Palace are some of the last sections in the game and up until then he'd mostly use switches to cause trouble,

....

Doesn't he sucker punch Super Sonic in like the first 5 seconds of the story? He's established as a tank right from the start.

(Lets also not forget that the dude later uppercut's Sonic into orbit)

[Azure Yakuzu]

So yeah, I'm just going to post more examples:

Amy:

Spoiler

oh Amy, you used to have an actual life outside of chasing Sonic, but those days are long gone, but don't worry I think we can salvage to those days.

Really, I don't mind her chasing Sonic, she's been doing that since her debut, the problem is that she does nothing else and is kind of a bitch to her "friends" for no reason. So I first I say she should be taking more active roles in the adventures she's on, she wants to earn Sonic's respect, have her do something to earn it; I mean she has a plucky, charismatic personality enough to turn villains to heroes, so maybe she can be the one to rally the troops when shit hits the ceiling. Have her aggressive personality be directed towards the villains, or at least people that actually are jerks, and not at the drop of a hat.

Cream:

Spoiler

Probably one of the harder characters to implement, particularly because she never really had a place in the series at all, but let's see If can salvage her for something.

First and foremost, her and Amy need to actually be shown doing friendly things together, I think the only game where I got the impression they were bff's was Battle. Her relationship can be a direct parallel to Sonic & Tails, but still unique in its own way so as to not be a copy; Like Cream is a lot more naive and innocent than Tails, and Amy is far more temperamental and immature than Sonic, so there's that. An interesting thing they can do for Cream is to have her try to act more like a grown-up so people don't see her as just a kid. I dunno, that's all I got.

Big:

Spoiler

Like Cream, Big was also a mostly useless character. I mean yeah the concept is good on paper, a character who's the complete opposite of Sonic both appearance and personality, but in practice its hard because this character really has no purpose and is lazy as hell.
I guess he can just be a character the crew occasionally meet up with to help them navigate a dangerous forest or something, but that's all I got.

Rouge:

Spoiler

Now here's a character with some real potential, that's gone virtually nowhere. Someone who cares mostly about her own selfish desires, but not heartless enough to turn away a cry for help and she already has chemistry with a few characters, seriously its really hard NOT to do anything with her. Rouge can pretty much the only true neutral character in the series, I mean Shadow may be an ass, but he's clearly selfless in his actions, then again there's Omega who's only motivation is to blow things up, but yeah she can selfish enough for the cast and the audience to be weary of her, but still likable enough to root for her.

[FFWF]

One thing you could do with Amy is have her attempt to help and protect Sonic as an expression of her love for him. She wouldn't necessarily do it competently or successfully, but she'd do it genuinely, and depending on how you pulled it off, it could be a lot more appealing as a character trait than violent stalking.

As for Cream, perhaps it might be better to relegate her to the role of innocent bystander, one who suffers from the depredations of the villain and shows the effect their villainous plot is having on the outside world? Amy could do this as well, for that matter - much as she did in Unleashed, really.

As for Big... I've got nothing. Comic relief purely for his obscurity and unpopularity as a character? Just plain ignore him?