141 replies to this topic

[pooshoes]

Hilter was a vegetarian, ironically.

Well done for simultaneously Godwining the thread and raising a completely irrelevant point.

-Edit-

For anyone who wants more reading, here's another pro-vegetarian article for the sake of the world rather than ethics, from a neutral source this time: http://www.guardian....-meat-free-diet

Oh lol, you did not just say the Guardian is neutral. Good grief.

Edited by pooshoes, 09 February 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[Discoid]

I didn't mean all world problems, World Hunger wouldn't not be solved by getting rid of meat, because it always be there.

Vegans? they still had meat just not everyday, I don't have meat everday, I have what is called a balanced diet I am sure many others here are same, I eat meat doesn't I have everyday my meat even makes a veggie meal now and again.

You would hate army back in the 80's my dad had a friend who was vegetarian, they wasn't much choice back so ended eat meat again (he could of left I know but he needed it phsyically), hell my dad ate a snake as part of his training.

Hilter was a vegetarian, ironically.

I'm not sure what this post is trying to tell me.

[JezMM]

Oh lol, you did not just say the Guardian is neutral. Good grief.

Well it's not coming from a vegetarian site, is my point, lol.


Damn, new page... I also included a couple of relevant comments in that post if anyone missed them.

Edited by JezMM, 09 February 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Gabe]

Seriously guys......

Anyway, has anyone looked at the News section at Google when you search PETA? Like seriously, just go do it.

It's like they condemn or file a lawsuit at something/someone every six hours or so.



^ Sorry for the quality, I used Windows 7's Snipping Tool.

OK, I'm starting to see what you guys mean when you say PETA is a bunch of attention whores.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Whilst I'm digging back quite far in this thread now:

I mean there's only ever nothing but bashing of PETA's style and publicity choices, no-one seems to say anything about what they think of their actual views.

Did you stop to consider that people frequently refuse to air their views on this subject because they can't be bothered with the inevitable shitstorm that follows from doing so? Just look at this thread, even if it's been kept mostly civil. There's also not much point in presenting a point of view for criticism when you are unwilling to change it.

My views on this are very simple, although most people won't think very highly of them. (Turns out as I was writing this I realised that my views on the matter are not simple at all, because I'm suddenly posting a blimp again.)

It's important to point out that my father, as he grew up in the days where it was essential to learn a trade before you could realistically find work, trained to be a butcher, and was moderately successful for some time. Today, he continues to place a professional amount of care in any meat he prepares, and we nearly always enjoy a full roast meal on Sundays. You probably know where this is going now.

I strongly enjoy eating meat products precisely because they contain meat - I like their flavour, texture and versatility in preparation within meals. I generally dislike vegetarian-friendly meals for a variety of reasons including unusual textures I do not enjoy and off-putting taste, but this is hardly universal. It is, however, common for me to complement the vegetarian-friendly component with a meat product because that makes the overall meal more enjoyable for me. I just plain like eating meat. I also really like my cheese. The only thing in meals I like more than meat are sauces - for me any meal is enhanced with a complementing sauce. Naturally then, anything that would threaten to stop me enjoying my food is something that I would be more than willing to squash like an ant.

The family dogs very obviously love me, and you'd never see me eat dog meat - I place a strong, strict divider between animals as pets and animals as produce sources, as most people do - but other than that notable exception, I'm very aware that animals don't care about me, and I most certainly don't care about them. For produce, whatever produces the highest quality end product is preferable, which generally means not treating an animal like shit during its life. This, not a moral choice, is why I generally support animal welfare views.

Animal rights views can piss off.

Firstly: "animal". That's one hell of a generalisation for a biosphere as complex as Earth's. Each species has different capacities and qualities, and that should be acknowledged, not a blanket viewpoint that downplays more complex human qualities and treats less developed animal equivalents as equally valid; or indeed occassions where animal equivalents are superior, sometimes vastly so. To return to my above dog example: dogs are inherently social and have an understanding of social heirarchy and dominance - this is how they integrate into families so well. They are literally incapable of understanding the concept of "equality" - for a dog, everyone in a pack has a rank, and other than the very top and bottom, everyone is both superior and inferior to someone else. Every other animal we regularly encounter is that much less able to understand human social concepts; cats go wherever the best food is and have a limited understanding of dominance and that's as far as they go understanding us. Claiming to understand an animal's mindset is as ridiculous as claiming they understand us. We do not even see the world in the same way.

The second part is the part that makes me sound like a crazy man and is more speculative, but I'll discuss it anyway.

You may be familiar with the book "The BFG [Big Friendly Giant]" by Roald Dahl. In it, the BFG yells at his human friend not to pick the flowers because he can't stand to hear them scream as they're yanked out of the ground and snapped in the middle, i.e. killed.

Plants are even more alien to us biologically than other animals, and this is exactly the main problem. Indeed, as we delve further into the realm of biology and better understand it, we better understand the situations where an animal indeed has traits, or understands a trait in the same way a human does; in ways thought unthinkable in the past. I speculate, and cannot prove, that eventually in some form we will discover that the above fictional extract isn't as fictional as people believed. We do not understand how a plant would feel pain yet, and it would not feel pain in the same way an animal does, via nerve cells, but that does not mean it can't feel damage and respond to it. Indeed, plants don't even have a brain yet they are capable of responding to stimuli regardless.

What I am driving at and hopefully everyone can see, is that whilst plants and animals are not the same, and individual plants and animals are not the same either and vary wildly between species, vegans and vegetarians still need to kill plants to sustain themselves. This apparent hypocrisy is never discussed, probably because it is so difficult to empathise with a plant, but it is there. You are still killing something to sustain yourself - you're just killing something else instead and I see no difference whatsoever between the two.

[Mollfie]

Okay that's a big post!

When you eat meat you always kill an animal. When you eat plants you do not always kill that plant. Fruits are supposed to be consumed because that's how seeds are spread so that rules those out of the argument (and there are people who eat only fruits because of that view).

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all? If so then there is also no difference between animals, including us. There is no difference between farm animals and household pets. If you believe that there is no difference between eating animals and plants then you have to come to the conclusion that it's also perfectly find to eat domestic animals such as pet cats and dogs. Something that most people are appalled by. What about the difference between humans and animals? If there is no difference between animals and plants then what about us? If you are subscribing to that idea then it's okay to eat other people too, right? Because there's no difference?

I know that we've made some scientific strides in discovering how plants can process things but at the end of the day we just don't know all that much right now. Maybe one day we will, but then we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. We do know a lot about animals though, about their intelligence, emotions and how they process pain.

There are many, many reasons why people choose to not consume animals or animal products and some can be harder to understand that others. At the end of the day it's a personal thing and I try hard not to push my opinion on people because I hate when people push theirs on me. Personally, I would rather do something than nothing. For me that means not eating animals. For my family that means eating decent, free-range meat, eggs from their own chickens and good quality milk. It might not be what I would do but I'm still supportive of their decision because at least they are trying.

Some people here have got kind of hostile and I find that upsetting because I want to have a mature conversation but it never seems to happen here and that's so disappointing.

Edited by Mollfie, 10 February 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[JezMM]

As well as what Mollfie said, just as an extra note, dogs are by no means a suitable example for considering some animals to be "not meat" and some to be "for meat", since, just for example, pigs are just as, if not more intelligent and happy to live with humans as dogs are, with just as much personality.



Plus the entire "plants are being killed too!" is a completely non-arguement. Sure I kill plants, that may or may not feel pain. Therefore it's okay to eat animals too, that I KNOW are intelligent and feel pain?



A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about. It's about making what difference you can. I would LOVE to be vegan, but I love the taste of creamy food way too much. I can completely sympathise with "but meat is yummy Q_Q" train of thought. I was there once. I was that same guy only 2-3 years ago, and never imagined myself ever being able to go vegetarian, but here I am.

Yes I'm not perfect, the dairy industry is just as horrible as the meat industry, but it's about whatever little you can do. I now only buy Pilgrim's Choice brand cheese since they don't overmilk, pump chemicals into cows, or sell their male calves for beef or (even worse) veal. I only buy free range eggs but that doesn't change the fact that they still probably throw male chicks into the grinders on a daily basis.


All I ask of meat-eaters is that they try and observe the occasional meat-free day or two. Only buy good quality meat that hasn't been speedgrown or kept and killed inhumanely. Just do what little you can. But if someone is too cheap to make even a small sacrifice like that or just do not empathise with animals' pain whatsoever... Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence. o_o

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Saw red reading that post, actually read it properly, calmed down, redid this post. It's still pretty terse.

The unspoken implication that my view is ignorant and less enlightened than yours was obvious, and I don't take kindly to that. Anyway:

When you eat meat you always kill an animal. When you eat plants you do not always kill that plant. Fruits are supposed to be consumed because that's how seeds are spread so that rules those out of the argument (and there are people who eat only fruits because of that view).

This is perfectly fine actually, but I doubt they're going to get a balanced diet out of that. Didn't we have a topic recently about how any mono-diet is unhealthy? It's been well established that a standard vegan diet is capable of meeting all your dietary needs, so there's no need to go into that.

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all?

This is not what I said at all. In fact I went to great pains to argue the exact opposite. Consequently I am irritated to see this response. (Massive understatement.)

I argued that there is no difference between killing a plant and an animal, and I'm sticking to that.

Incidentally this renders this entire paragraph moot, so...

There are many, many reasons why people choose to not consume animals or animal products and some can be harder to understand that others.

This works the other way for people who want to eat meat as well; it would be nice to see this acknowledged.

Indeed though, for many of us this is a very simple topic with a very obvious answer and that people go to such great lengths to challenge is often bemusing and frustrating. This is probably the source of the hostility you're noticing.

EDIT: Thread moves fast lulz.

All I ask of meat-eaters is that they try and observe the occasional meat-free day or two.

This is absolutely too much to ask. I will eat as I like on any given day and it is very unreasonable to request otherwise.

Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence. o_o

Your thinly veiled condescending attitude is noted, as above.

Edited by Velotix von Skruviktorrius, 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Tornado]

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all? If so then there is also no difference between animals, including us. There is no difference between farm animals and household pets. If you believe that there is no difference between eating animals and plants then you have to come to the conclusion that it's also perfectly find to eat domestic animals such as pet cats and dogs. Something that most people are appalled by. What about the difference between humans and animals? If there is no difference between animals and plants then what about us? If you are subscribing to that idea then it's okay to eat other people too, right? Because there's no difference?

You say you don't understand why this argument always always always becomes heated, and one of your responses in that post is such a blatant and ridiculous strawman?







As for the other reason arguments like this always become heated:

A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about.

I'm reminded of how the Green movement likes to position itself the same way, but the overwhelming majority of the people you actually hear preaching about it (and yes, preaching is the proper term to use) are the exact type of people that you want to punch in the face so hard that their face ceases to exist on this plane of reality.






And then you turn around and post this:

Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence.

Which, while not nearly as extreme, is basically the same sentiment that you said you weren't expressing.

Edited by Gilda, 10 February 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Mollfie]

The unspoken implication that my view is ignorant and less enlightened than yours was obvious, and I don't take kindly to that.

I actually found this incredibly hurtful as I generally go out of my way to not upset people. I had no intention of coming across in the way you've perceived. I was actually just raising points in the hope of getting some sort of discussion out of this. I don't even necessarily believe those points!

Edited by Mollfie, 10 February 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[JezMM]

This is absolutely too much to ask. I will eat as I like on any given day and it is very unreasonable to request otherwise.

Your thinly veiled condescending attitude is noted, as above.

Thinly vieled nothing. I'm not gonna lie to protect people's feelings.

There is a point in all ethics where stuff crosses into just pure, heartfelt belief. I believe animals are creatures who, while they may be far more primitive versions of our own, are just as capable of feeling pain, fear and emotion. If I saw someone stabbing an animal and it screaming in pain, I see it in the exact same way I would see someone stabbing a human and that person screaming in pain and begging them to stop. If that means nothing to you then I think you're a horrible person. Sorry.

I'm reminded of how the Green movement likes to position itself the same way, but the overwhelming majority of the people you actually hear preaching about it (and yes, preaching is the proper term to use) are the exact type of people that you want to punch in the face so hard that their face ceases to exist on this plane of reality.

I judge people individually, not as groups. I also like to avoid violent analogies, for what that's worth.



If any of my criticised animal suffering-indifferent meat-eaters here are bothered by my opinion of them then you can just consider me a crazy hippie if that makes you feel better, you have my permission.

EDIT: I feel I may have crossed a line with this post. I'd like to clarify that I'm not so one-track minded that I'd consider anyone who is indifferent to animal welfare a horrible person overall. If there was someone who was an amazing screenplay writer, donated $100 a month to charity and still found the time to personally clean my windows for me once a week, I would not consider them a horrible person just because they had no qualms with eating speedgrown battery chickens at KFC. But that aspect of their character and opinion I would personally find horrible and downright weird.

Edited by JezMM, 10 February 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Tornado]

So, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity.


How is this:

A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about. It's about making what difference you can.

Any different from this:

If I saw someone stabbing an animal and it screaming in pain, I see it in the exact same way I would see someone stabbing a human and that person screaming in pain and begging them to stop. If that means nothing to you then I think you're a horrible person. Sorry.

Or, at the very least, different enough that the views you say shouldn't be held aren't actually the valid ones to have?

Because all that reads to me is "vegetarians aren't all pretentious and condescending, but the reasons people tend to think that they are are totally accurate."








Edit:

And since you made it a point to bring it up despite how meaningless it is to the topic proper, I'll make it a point to respond:

I also like to avoid violent analogies, for what that's worth.

Nothing. That's how I talk. That's how I think. That's how I attempt to joke around to keep a topic from getting too serious and heated.

Edited by Gilda, 10 February 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[JezMM]

So, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity.


How is this:


Any different from this:




Or, at the very least, different enough that the views you say shouldn't be held aren't actually the valid ones to have?

Because all that reads to me is "vegetarians aren't all pretentious and condescending, but the reasons people tend to think that they are are totally accurate."

I just do not understand how people cannot care at all. I don't think people are horrible for eating meat. I think people are horrible for thinking 100% that they have every right to be as cruel to animals as they see fit.

When I say "it's not much to ask to occasionally not eat meat". Or EVEN "it's not much to ask to only buy good, WELL-KEPT meat", and people say "yes it is". Sorry that just... makes me blue screen. I literally CANNOT understand how a fellow human can be that unsympathetic towards another living creature. I just can't.

[Legendary Emerald]

I literally CANNOT understand how a fellow human can be that unsympathetic towards another living creature. I just can't.

What good does sympathy do? Why should I want to care about the pain of the pig, when its meat fills me up so well?

We ignore the suffering of other creatures and humans every day. If not, we would surely go insane. There is no way to stop suffering. To think that there could be is delusional.

Suffering should be kept to a minimum, yes. But as human creatures with powerful self interests, we will decide what amount should be allowed. Because we can. Because we are selfish creatures. Just like every other species.

That is how we have evolved. That is the way of the human race. And there is no escaping it, no matter how many tofu patties one eats.

Human beings are not above nature. And nature is above all else.

Edited by Legendary Emerald, 10 February 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Indigo Rush]

Guys, stop whaleing on each other and get back on topic!

(yes, I posted simply to make a pun)

But I do have to say that I love me some meat. It tastes good, it digests well, and it gives me nourishment throughout the day. I don't believe we should be cruel to animals, but I also don't believe we should avoid eating meat.

Because darn it, I can't make spaghetti and meatballs without any meat!

[BW199148]

I remember when I was small asking my mum everytime we had meat was it just to make sure that was dead, I wear leather, I like my steak, I like my veg too, I sometimes like eggs, I like milk, cheese. If makes me a monster to you I don't care, I that makes me a terrible person than thats very closed minded why to think. I respect peoples choices but if they can't recept mine then clearly ticks me off.

I can't understand people who follow Religion much, but I don't think their a terrible person.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Did you stop to consider that people frequently refuse to air their views on this subject because they can't be bothered with the inevitable shitstorm that follows from doing so?

Point thoroughly proven.

Well, at least now we're clear. For the record, your attitude is perfectly understandable, I just don't agree with it. Although it seems I was misunderstanding at least one individual and for that I apologise.

I'm not surprised by the reaction anyway, this is why I don't talk about it much, however the insistence on actually discussing the issue for a change compelled me to say something. Disregarding the mudslinging for the moment, two legitimate points have been raised in the midst of all this.

Attachment
It has been mentioned that pigs are actually pretty smart and empathetic as most people seem to like to forget. But that's just it. Why do they like to forget?

Indeed, for everything I've said so far, if indeed I had not been raised in a culture that considers them pets and been raised in a dog-loving family, I would probably also consider them legitimate sources of food. Indeed many cultures do just this. Of course I couldn't possibly do this because if I went anywhere near it I'd be imagining every pet dog in the family, past and present.

My Dad's family in particular continue to enjoy on occasion rarer choices of meat such as pheasant, duck and goose, and on such occasions they've gotten me to try a few. Now whilst I actually somewhat liked duck, no matter what I did I couldn't get the image of ducks swimming in a pond out of my head, and I found I couldn't enjoy it. Most people in my generation, let alone me and my sister, also consider the idea of eating rabbits abhorrent, which my grandparents find confusing. It's not a stretch to imagine many people having similar experiences with battery chickens. Indeed I actually get pretty squeamish at first whenever I prepare meat myself before I adjust to the feel of it as handling a raw carcass is just plain odd, as is seeing a pig being carved up from scratch. Dead pig leg feels wierd.

None of this applies to eating plants, ever. As I said already, it's extremely difficult to empathise with a plant as they're so far removed from our empathic cues as to be alien entities. So then, do we just make exceptions for eating their meat with things we care about on a personal level? Seems I certainly do. In fact that seems to be the primary deterrant of cannibalism.

Leads nicely onto the next point.

Empathy
It is completely reasonable to feel sorry for an animal if it appears to be in pain.

Whether it's silly or not to do so depends on whether the animal really is feeling pain, and this is the basis for well thought-out animal welfare - not treating them like people, but treating them like what they actually are. I insist upon, and find it reasonable to, treat species individually, and I find that discussing "animal rights" as a generalised issue dilutes the complexity of the situation.

This is difficult for anyone to wrap their minds around because it requires understanding a thoroughly inhuman mindset in each case. Most people tend to default to assuming an animal's reaction directly corresponds to a human equivalent, or in lieu of that a recognised animal equivalent. The difference between a cat wagging their tail and a dog wagging their tail for example.





Also to finish this post, the timing on this is unbelievable.

I have been informed by my parents that we're trying out venison burgers for a change tonight. Before you ask, I've never seen a real deer in my life.

Spoiler

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: MEAT-EATING CUNT 3000

[Solkia]

nevermind

Edited by Solkia, 10 February 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Indigo Rush]

I agree with those points, Velotix. I don't think I could ever bring myself to eat dog meat unless the situation was dire. I've owned a couple dogs in my life and I wouldn't be able to get over it. But when you think about it, dogs and pigs are equally intelligent.

And pigs roll around in mud for goodness sake. You'd think the pig would be a less attractive meal, y'know?

Oh, and in regards to eating Bambi, I've put venison in my meat sauce before. It was phenomenal. You're in for a tasty treat!

...*ahem*


So yeah, Whale plaintiffs. Pretty silly, huh? Makes PETA look like a bunch of blubbering idiots.

[Carbo]

You guys disgust me.