367 replies to this topic

[Indigo Rush]

*UPDATE - DIOGENES SOLVED THE PROBLEM! IT'S A WHALE OF A TALE!

"If I could just take all the SSMB members in the in the world who like to debate about Knuckles and just, you know, buy a farm somewhere and let them all run free, you know, let them do little macaroni art pictures of their favorite Master Emerald theories..."

.

- Indigo Rush in his latest work, "Stop Derailing the Bloody Topic"

So, Knuckles, The bloat thrower, independent flow-er, magical emerald holder. Gives you the coldest shoulder, his spike goes through boulders, that's why he stays a loner. Born by himself, doesn't need a posse, gets it on by himself and adversaries get shelf'd

We've long dealt with the inconsistencies of him being a strict guardian to the Master Emerald for the sake of the balance of the world, yet he constantly finds himself outright ignoring this role to join Sonic in his latest escapades to save the world from Dr. Eggman's nefarious schemes. On occasion it'll be a hoard of poorly written alien baddies or the whole Babylon Gardens saga, but the point is that for a while, he was seldom seen protecting the Master Emerald from any outside harm. And sometimes there's no good reason to leave it alone, such as attending Sonic's birthday.

Why is this? Does he feel that the Master Emerald is safe enough to leave it by itself on occasion? If this were the case, then where is Knuckles during games such as Sonic Unleashed or Sonic Colors? It's generally assumed he's back on Angel Island doing his guard duty, but how come all of a sudden the safety of the Master Emerald matters again?

It's obviously due to poor writing and consistency. The Sonic series' storyline post-Sonic Adventure 2 went through a bit of an identity crisis, and certain key elements such as the role of the Master Emerald were almost completely discarded for the sake of including a popular character into another game. While I can get behind Knuckles appearing in more titles, I, along with many others, would feel that it would be at least "nice" if we could have an explanation for it.

We have these details to work around:

1) Knuckles is one of the more popular characters

2) Fans want him to appear in more games

3) Knuckles is tied to his role as guardian of the Master Emerald

4) Him not guarding the Master Emerald implies irresponsibility and inevitable chaos

5) Him carrying the Master Emerald with him causes the island to crash again

6) Eggman can use it to devastating effects

7) Eggman also probably knows the location of the Hidden Palace, so Knuckles can't just store it there

It's a complete and utter mess, and one would have to do some serious brainstorming to make it work. Spin-offs that have no coherent plot like racing games or the Olympic Games spin-offs needn't count, but for those who want some reasonable consistency, this is a legitimate issue.

I've seen some brilliant members toss some good theories around, so I figured this topic should be used to condense all of them into one place, as well as facilitate general discussion about Knuckles as a character and his involvement in the series.

What've you guys got to bring to the table?

Edited by Indigo Rush, 03 June 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Soniman]

Why the fuck was Knuckles in Soleanna?

Seriously, the game offers us no reason other than "oh I just happen to be in the area".

Edited by Grooseinator032, 12 February 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[Son1ctrainer]

Tails created a fake Master Emerald so that when Knuckles travels, he can take the real one with him and Angel Island can stay afloat without crashing into the ocean.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Consistency and Continuity have never been a strong point of this series, even back in the Adventure games despite what people will tell you. So really, I don't expect Knuckles to be left out of every game even thought it would make sense because at the end of the day, people like seeing him and hold him in high regard.

[y cant solkia crawl]

Why the fuck was Knuckles in Soleanna?

Seriously, the game offers us no reason other than "oh I just happen to be in the area".

Same could be said for most of the characters in that game.

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

It's obviously due to poor writing and consistency. The Sonic series' storyline post-Sonic Adventure 2 went through a bit of an identity crisis, and certain key elements such as the role of the Master Emerald were almost completely discarded for the sake of including a popular character into another game. While I can get behind Knuckles appearing in more titles, I, along with many others, would feel that it would be at least "nice" if we could have an explanation for it.

I always assumed that Knuckles just shrunk the master Emerald and took it with him. He was able to do it in this scene from Sonic Adventure 2 at 6:24.

And sometimes there's no good reason to leave it alone, such as attending Sonic's birthday.

Well Blaze who is from a different dimension was also there just for Sonic's birthday so I wouldn't see this as a big deal. Besides who would want to miss out on birthday cake?

Why the fuck was Knuckles in Soleanna?

Seriously, the game offers us no reason other than "oh I just happen to be in the area".

Yeah know what? I have a theory of Sonic 06, I think Sonic 06 took place in an alternate timeline where Sonic had never used the chaos emeralds to turn Super before since Elise had the blue chaos emerald her whole life. Blaze wasn't a princess/gaurdian of the sol emeralds from another dimension but was just Silver's watered down friend who magically lived another life in a 200 year future. Knuckles wasn't the gaurdian of the master emerald but was just Sonic's watered down friend who was, um, on vacation in Soleanna? And where 2+2=fish but that's just my theory of Sonic 06.

[Indigo Rush]

I always assumed that Knuckles just shrunk the master Emerald and took it with him. He was able to do it in this scene from Sonic Adventure 2 at 6:24.

Right, leaving Angel Island to fall.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Indigo Rush, I hate you SO goddamn much right now because I have to go all the way back through 5000 post I've made about Knuckles and the Master Emerald.

Also, we were making good record of not bringing this shit up again until it was unfortunately used in the form of a sentence in "Sonic relying on the Past" topic.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Indigo Rush, I hate you SO goddamn much right now because I have to go all the way back through 5000 post I've made about Knuckles and the Master Emerald.

Also, we were making good record of not bringing this shit up again until it was unfortunately used in the form of a sentence in "Sonic relying on the Past" topic.

They should seriously have a button at Sega labeled: "Break in case of Master Emerald plot" with a picture of Knuckles on it.



Like I said, if they're going to continue with the whole Master Emerald thing, then Knuckles simply cannot appear as much as fans want him to, I mean he can but then he runs the risk of becoming another Shadow, shoehorned into events that he isn't suited for. As much as I love Knuckles, I've come to this unfortunate conclusion.

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

Right, leaving Angel Island to fall.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, maybe Knuckles is more concerned about keeping the emerald safe versus making sure Angel Island doesn't get wet? Is there anything on Angel Island really worth protecting besides the Master Emerald?

Like I said, if they're going to continue with the whole Master Emerald thing, then Knuckles simply cannot appear as much as fans want him to, I mean he can but then he runs the risk of becoming another Shadow, shoehorned into events that he isn't suited for. As much as I love Knuckles, I've come to this unfortunate conclusion.

Well to be honest, I don't think Knuckles should be limited to only appearing when the Master Emerald is apart of the plot. That would get very repeatitive and lame. This is Sonic the Hedgehog, I don't think consistency and story is really a big deal. If a character is liked among the fans and would make the game that much more fun or interesting to play through then I think Sega should include that character if they wish with out having their backstory, responsibilities, or whatever interfere with the game. This is why I didn't mind Blaze being with Silver in Sonic 06, yeah it didn't make any sense but I still had goosebumps in seeing her in what should have been such a milestone game.

Edited by S0NIC Toadstool, 12 February 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, maybe Knuckles is more concerned about keeping the emerald safe versus making sure Angel Island doesn't get wet? Is there anything on Angel Island really worth protecting besides the Master Emerald?

That Island is like a maze: you have to navigate it in order to get to the center and claim your prize. In addition to that, the maze is filled with traps that activate when triggered. On top of that, you have a guardian who not only knows the easiest and quickest way to get to the prize without springing the trap, but also knows where certain traps are and how to activate them when necessary. And should someone actually make it to the prize, the guardian is more than capable of reaching you and fighting you to ensure you don't leave so easily. And that's without getting into the fact that said guardian has a couple of friends who will more than likely chase you down should you actually manage to get away with it.

Now take away all of that except the guardian and the prize and what are you left with? The ask yourself this: would you rather have Knuckles hold on to it and going around fighting Robotnik, running the risk of losing it towards the villain? Or would you rather have the guardian leave it there and protect it with all the lines of defense he has around it?

TL:DR - Angel Island serves as an extra barrier between a potential thief and a Master Emerald and taking that away and having Knuckles carry it makes it easier for someone to steal it if they beat him in a fight which he is more than capable of losing.

Well to be honest, I don't think Knuckles should be limited to only appearing when the Master Emerald is apart of the plot. That would get very repeatitive and lame.

I've thought of 11 ways you can use Knuckles with the Master Emerald being around. And that's only a fraction of my idea. I can show you a HUGE post on every detail regarding this topic.

Also, just as you say it would get repetitive and lame if Knuckles is limited to appearing with the Master Emerald, it can get equally repetitive and lame if he appeared just because you want him too without something going for him.

This is why I didn't mind Blaze being with Silver in Sonic 06, yeah it didn't make any sense but I still had goosebumps in seeing her in what should have been such a milestone game.

And it's also because of that story's inconsistency that makes many people who already hate the game hate it more.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Well to be honest, I don't think Knuckles should be limited to only appearing when the Master Emerald is apart of the plot. That would get very repeatitive and lame. This is Sonic the Hedgehog, I don't think consistency and story is really a big deal. If a character is liked among the fans and would make the game that much more fun or interesting to play through then I think Sega should include that character if they wish with out having their backstory, responsibilities, or whatever interfere with the game. This is why I didn't mind Blaze being with Silver in Sonic 06, yeah it didn't make any sense but I still had goosebumps in seeing her in what should have been such a milestone game.

Its not a big deal, but its still something that should be considered. And like I said, shoehorning him into every game cuz he's popular is exactly the reason he's without a purpose now. Like it or not, story is a major part of ther series and should be considered when making the games because if we just fuck all to it, we get things like Generations where everyone but Sonic is just standing around doing fuck all.

[American Ristar]

Right, leaving Angel Island to fall.

Maybe Knuckles decided he can park it when he feels like it. Anyways didn't Rouge steal the Master Emerald in SA2?

Also maybe I can make the same joke I always make in this topic.

He pays the Chaotix to watch the Master Emerald with gold. Echidna gold doubloons.

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

Well, Knuckles has been guarding the Master Emerald eversince 1994, I think it would be nice to see him branch out and not be restrained to slaving over that big green rock isolated and alone on that floating island, the poor guy. Hm what if in a future Sonic game, the Master Emerald and Angel Island are destroyed due to a "Monster of the Week" forcing Knuckles to come down to Earth and giving him the opportunity to hang around Sonic and Tails without being forced to Guard the ME anymore? Would this allow him to appear in every Sonic game without concern of his responsibilities as a guardian?

I understand that just throwing Knuckles into games ignoring the Master Emerald is inconsistent story-wise, but at the same time, Knuckles is one of the original characters and it's really not fair that he should have a dissadvantage to make an appearance due to the Master Emearld. Shadow, Blaze, and Silver are still young and not as well known, but Knuckles is a classic and should have priority screen time just like Tails and Amy.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Well, Knuckles has been guarding the Master Emerald eversince 1994, I think it would be nice to see him branch out and not be restrained to slaving over that big green rock isolated and alone on that floating island, the poor guy. Hm what if in a future Sonic game, the Master Emerald and Angel Island are destroyed due to a "Monster of the Week" forcing Knuckles to come down to Earth and giving him the opportunity to hang around Sonic and Tails without being forced to Guard the ME anymore? Would this allow him to appear in every Sonic game without concern of his responsibilities as a guardian?

Then what reason would Knuckles even have to be around anymore? His entire role in the series is to keep all things related to the Master and Chaos emeralds under control, take that away, what's left for him? And no, being just "Sonic's friend" is nothing good for him and does nothing for his character at all, what you're essentially asking is for Knuckles to give up his entire character and being.

The SMART thing to do would be to make the Master Emerald, and Chaos Emeralds more relevant to the series so Knuckles has an actual reason to be around, and emphasize his role as protector of the damn gems. The series already revolves around the Chaos Emeralds to an extent and considering the Master Emerald is more powerful than them, its really not that hard to think of ways to include Knuckles, without contradicting his character. Sometimes he can appear, sometimes he can't.

I understand that just throwing Knuckles into games ignoring the Master Emerald is inconsistent story-wise, but at the same time, Knuckles is one of the original characters and it's really not fair that he should have a dissadvantage to make an appearance due to the Master Emearld.

Why isn't it fair? Just because he's one of the original characters doesn't mean he has to be around in every single game for the sake of it, like I said it does nothing to make people like him and only contradicts an established role he has in the series, which is guarding that damn emerald.

but Knuckles is a classic and should have priority screen time just like Tails and Amy.

And this mentality is what's killing the series, people thinking some characters deserve more than others. If a character isn't suited for a specific game, then they're not needed. If a game focuses on Eggman trying to conquer an alien planet that Sonic must save, what purpose does Knuckles serve at all if he comes along? If the entire game doesn't matter whether he's there or not, then he's not really needed.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Hm what if in a future Sonic game, the Master Emerald and Angel Island are destroyed due to a "Monster of the Week" forcing Knuckles to come down to Earth and giving him the opportunity to hang around Sonic and Tails without being forced to Guard the ME anymore? Would this allow him to appear in every Sonic game without concern of his responsibilities as a guardian?

Okay, I'm really sorry if you feel offended here because I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or offend you, but reading that actually managed to piss me right the fuck off somehow and I need to vent this.

If you have the Master Emerald and Angel Island get destroyed by the "Monster of the Week" just so he can hang around with Sonic and Tails, then you've just make him a character with absolutely no purpose at all. On top of that, you're making a very, VERYhollow reason to have in around.

And if you wanted my most brutally honest opinion? That is the most BULLSHIT of an excuse to have him around and avoid him guarding the Master Emerald! You've essentially took away what makes Knuckles who he is. Knuckles is known as the Guardian of the Master Emerald and the Guardian of Angel Island. What the fuck is he suppose to be if you destroyed that all that just to be with Sonic and Tails?

Sonic's has a purpose of saving the world, Tails has a purpose of being a sidekick and being a tech genius who makes gadgets to assist Sonic in saving the world, Shadow and Rouge are GUN Agents working to help maintain order, Silver is a Time Traveler trying to fix whatever is wrong in his future and make things right, The Chaotix of all people have a purpose of being detectives who can figure out whatever mystery is going on. What the hell do you leave Knuckles with if he no longer guards the Master Emerald and Angel Island? A superstrong partner who can beat up robots in Sonic's way? Seriously, what? Even more, I linked you to a post that had 11 ways you could use Knuckles, and you don't sound like you even bother to consider or even read any of them.

Shadow, Blaze, and Silver are still young and not as well known, but Knuckles is a classic and should have priority screen time just like Tails and Amy.

Okay, now I seriously want to choke you. Especially regarding Shadow because the guy has been around for 12 years, which is a LONG time to still be a young character.

And in case you forgot, Shadow got his OWN FUCKING GAME! No, it wasn't a good game, but the damn hedgehog got his own major game. I find it very ridiculous to say at the very least that Shadow isn't as well known; he's just as well known as Knuckles and just as popular as he is hated. Heck, Shadow's game is more well known than Knuckles' game despite being bad.

Shadic93 already said what I was going to, but I am more than prepared to add on to it if I need to.

EDIT: Please tell me you're trolling. Because I think you may have actually owned me here. You couldn't have been serious.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 12 February 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

Ok fine I get your point. To be honest, I just feel a little sad with how Knuckles has been treated lately. Sega has dumbed him down from antihero to a comic relief character since Sonic Heroes and he's had a lack of screen time in reent games such as Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors. I understand what you said about Knuckles not needing to be there if he is not needed but sheesh, I'm getting tired of Tails, Amy, and "Sonic's friend of the week" I wanna see rad red again. Personally, I don't really have a problem with seeing any characters around as long as they're not playable. Just Sega's way of saying "Hey don't worry we haven't forgotten about these guys." I thought Sonic Generations was a breath of fresh air, a lot of Sonic's friends were there but only Sonic was playable. I'm not a big Amy fan but I was fine with her being in Sonic Unleashed (even though she really had no purpose in that game) as long as I didn't have to play as her. That game could have easily had a scene where Knuckles could be fighting off Dark Gaia's minions on Angel Island and then Sonic comes out to help him. That way Knuckles gets some screen time and doesn't need to leave the ME or Angel Island. Little things like that I would like to see. Knuckles doesn't even have to have a big role in the story or leave his island but as long as he's somewhere even for a cameo I'll be happy I just don't want him to become forgotten.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Ok fine I get your point. To be honest, I just feel a little sad with how Knuckles has been treated lately. Sega has dumbed him down from antihero to a comic relief character since Sonic Heroes and he's had a lack of screen time in reent games such as Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors.

That's kind of the reason this topic was made. We want more for Knuckles, but taking away parts of his character such as destroying the Master Emerald and Angel Island is not giving him more to his character. It's doing less.

I understand what you said about Knuckles not needing to be there if he is not needed but sheesh, I'm getting tired of Tails, Amy, and "Sonic's friend of the week" I wanna see rad red again.

We want to see Knuckles and other characters again too, but we don't want other characters getting special privileges just to appear when it does nothing for the character. Knuckles being a Classic character adds absolutely nothing to his role in a game other than implying that he's there for the fans and that he's been around longer, which could come across as nothing more than fanservice. There should be more substance than that for Knuckles and for any other character besides Sonic and Eggman.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with seeing any characters around as long as they're not playable.

I happen to want other characters to be playable.

Would you have a problem if the were optional, despite being playable? Because a lot of us here happen to want those other character to be playable.

Just Sega's way of saying "Hey don't worry we haven't forgotten about these guys." I thought Sonic Generations was a breath of fresh air, a lot of Sonic's friends were there but only Sonic was playable.

And they barely did jackshit in the game besides get kidnapped or be involved in some rather mediocre minigames. No dude, I want more than that for them. Generations was nothing but a wasted opportunity for those characters.

I'm not a big Amy fan but I was fine with her being in Sonic Unleashed (even though she really had no purpose in that game) as long as I didn't have to play as her.

I would almost suggest leaving her out, but Unleashed was one of those games where Knuckles didn't need the Master Emerald or Angel Island to appear because the whole world got blown up. I expected damn near the whole cast to make an appearance because of that, but no...

Amy barely did much in the game...then again neither did Tails, although he did fly Sonic to Spagonia and Eggmanland, so YMMV...

That game could have easily had a scene where Knuckles could be fighting off Dark Gaia's minions on Angel Island and then Sonic comes out to help him. That way Knuckles gets some screen time and doesn't need to leave the ME or Angel Island. Little things like that I would like to see. Knuckles doesn't even have to have a big role in the story or leave his island but as long as he's somewhere even for a cameo I'll be happy I just don't want him to become forgotten.

Dude, I'm really getting goddamn sick of hearing you want to give these little scraps for Knuckles to have just so you can see him and say "There's Waldo! Knuckles!"

I don't want a damn cameo for Knuckles just to see him, I want MORE than that. I want him to have a connection and role to the plot and be involved. If that connection can be made while keeping in mind of the character and his duties, then great let's have him around. If not, don't fucking bother having him around. I want to enjoy him as a character, not as fanservice.

And that goes the same for other characters like Shadow, Amy, Silver, and anyone else as well.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 12 February 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Phos]

For all the games he was in, Knuckles still hasn't really had much of an arc. It seems as though all the story relating to him is really about Angel Island, the Echidnas, or the Master Emerald. He kind of had one when he learned the truth behind Robotnik, but that's not a lot.

You've essentially took away what makes Knuckles who he is.

That's his job. Knuckles is a headstrong but gullible person who is (circa 2000 at least) very loyal to the role he had been dealt, but also had skills dealing with ancient artifacts related to his lost people. You need to keep the Plinkett test in mind.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

That's his job. Knuckles is a headstrong but gullible person who is (circa 2000 at least) very loyal to the role he had been dealt, but also had skills dealing with ancient artifacts related to his lost people. You need to keep the Plinkett test in mind.

You cherry picked that one sentence out of that whole post just to make that point? We weren't talking about his characterization. We were talking about his occupation, which no duh, we all know it's his job to guard the Master Emerald and Angel Island.

But who he is is a Guardian; just like how I called Tails being a Mechanic and a Sidekick, or Rouge as a government Agent, or Silver being a Time Traveler, aka the archetypes/purposes/jobs I mentioned for all the other characters where I also didn't apply the test in the first place? I suppose your going to tell me to keep the test in mind for them too when I didn't do that for them either?

Maybe I should have worded it better (and probably stop using his character and occupation so interchangably since that's probably why you brought this up), but that's really suspect when you pick that one part out for Knuckles when I did that several times to other characters in the next paragraph.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 12 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.