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Indie Developers Moving Away From XBLA/PSN

XBLA PSN Indie moving away

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#1 Patticus

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:10 AM

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Independent’s Day

I ask about 2011, a year in which the studio released three excellent titles. Is that success? Is that what this is all about? “Double Fine is a company that values its independence,” says Schafer. “We really value our employees…” there’s a slight pause, and then Schafer shouts at someone else in the room, “why are you looking at me like that?! Of course I value you!” There is muffled laughter in the background and we’re back on. “And we have a responsibility to make things happen for ourselves. It’s not enough to come up with great ideas, you have to come up with great business ideas, too. You have to protect yourself.

“But yes, we’ve been trying all these different projects, and it’s great – we have multiple teams and multiple leaders like Lee Petty, Brad Meer and Nathan Martz, people who are new, who can take on these projects. We’ll try out iOS devices, or maybe free-to-play, we’ll try licenses. We’re having a lot of fun doing it.”

Double Fine, then, is making the most of the digital era, coping a feel of all the new platforms and delivery methods. But there are frustrations, too. Schafer has watched the Xbox Live Arcade and PSN services dwindle away from fantastically promising beginnings to troubled, even fading services. “Ever since I played Geometry Wars I thought, what a great new portal,” he enthuses.

“But it seems that this year, the idea didn’t explode like it should have. Back when Castle Crashers came out, it seemed it was going to grow and grow. I just wish there was more support, more marketing, more placement on the dashboard. It could have been our own little Sundance Film festival, a great sandbox for indie development.

“But the indie community is now moving elsewhere; we’re figuring out how to fund and distribute games ourselves, and we’re getting more control over them. Those systems as great as they are, they’re still closed. You have to jump through a lot of hoops, even for important stuff like patching and supporting your game. Those are things we really want to do, but we can’t do it on these systems. I mean, it costs $40,000 to put up a patch – we can’t afford that! Open systems like Steam, that allow us to set our own prices, that’s where it’s at, and doing it completely alone like Minecraft. That’s where people are going.”


http://www.hookshoti...afers-millions/

Holy shit! $40k for a patch?! That's bloody outrageous. Sony and Microsoft need to address this on the next platforms or they'll face losing these indie devs forever, in the process losing so much of what makes their marketplace services so great.

Steam really is the best model out there isn't it?

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#2 Solkia

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:24 AM

I figured Steam was more indev friendly from the very beginning.

#3 Metal Gear (sting)RAY

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:32 AM

I can't remember who said this, but he put it very aptly: The winner of the next console generation will be whoever understands why Xbox Live Community Games is not the iTunes App Store.

#4 Hogfather

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

Holy shit! $40k for a patch?! That's bloody outrageous. Sony and Microsoft need to address this on the next platforms or they'll face losing these indie devs forever, in the process losing so much of what makes their marketplace services so great.


You mean Microsoft needs to sort this out.

I was under the impression that with Microsoft, you get the first patch for free, then any others you are required to pay a 'fine/fee' for, whereas Sony do not charge a fee for any patch.

Aparently this was the reason why the Dark Souls patch got delayed in the EU/US, because it was PS3 exclusive in Japan, they were able to get more patches out quickly, which resulted in Japanese gamers playing the game on patch 1.05 for a month before it was released in the west. In fact the west never actually got 1.04 it jumped from 1.03-1.05. Reason given was the fees which would have been charged for patch 1.04 when they knew 1.05 was going to follow shortly after.

#5 Carbo

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:35 PM

I was under the impression that with Microsoft, you get the first patch for free, then any others you are required to pay a 'fine/fee' for, whereas Sony do not charge a fee for any patch.


I don't know where people get this from. I've played a healthy amount of games on 360 with multiple patches and fixes, and I haven't had to pay for a single patch of any game I've played.

The only game I've seen to put up a patch through the Marketplace is BlazBlue Continuum Shift, and that patch was free.

#6 Blue Blood

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:42 PM

I don't know where people get this from. I've played a healthy amount of games on 360 with multiple patches and fixes, and I haven't had to pay for a single patch of any game I've played.

The only game I've seen to put up a patch through the Marketplace is BlazBlue Continuum Shift, and that patch was free.

I thought he was talking about the developers/publishers having to pay to put a patch up? Regardless, sometime companies can be sneaky and patch through DLC. It's was SEGA did with the glitch in Unleashed where the NPC who gives you the last art book disappears. But yeah, at any rate patches are free for customers.

Edited by HYDROCITEE, 13 February 2012 - 02:46 PM.


#7 Tornado

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:46 PM

I don't know where people get this from. I've played a healthy amount of games on 360 with multiple patches and fixes, and I haven't had to pay for a single patch of any game I've played.

The only game I've seen to put up a patch through the Marketplace is BlazBlue Continuum Shift, and that patch was free.


He was talking about Microsoft charging developers/publishers to put patches up through XBL. Which has been known since at least, what, Left 4 Dead came out on it? Something like that.

Edited by Gilda, 13 February 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#8 Carbo

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.

#9 Agent York

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:11 PM

As a person who talks with a lot of indie developers and does his own work behind the scenes, many publishers and and distribution services are going to have to rethink their strategies for indie developers. It's somewhat understandable... Indie games didn't really become popular until this console generation so the consoles themselves weren't really designed with indie games in mind. Update patches for console games also is a fairly new concept from this generation (even if it's been with PC games for a while). However, I think Microsoft simply hasn't changed it's policies with the times because of the huge work it would go into legal claims and policy changes mid-way through this generation, and the fact they can earn money this way. If they don't pick up their game though, they're really going to be left out of the indie game market come this next generation of consoles.

Indie developers are definitely getting more accepted in the industry, both by gamers and distributors, but I do hope there are still some future improvements to the system. Steam is probably the best current method to push out indie games currently, but even then Valve can be... Picky, with what games they subject to. It's not a terrible system, and quality control is good, but their very selective. A game I could point out is Gemini Rue, which was getting great reception from reviewers and gamers alike, but for some reason Valve didn't accept the game on Steam since the game was, "not the type of game Steam users are interested in." It wasn't until the developer made a deal through Humble Bundling that Valve finally gave in and allowed it on Steam. It must of sold well enough though as another of the developers game series, also a point-and-click adventure game, got added to Steam recently (all four Blackwell titles).

There's other stories, but it is both very encouraging to see services open up for Indie developers but also to see so many odd practices still being used is a bit disappointing.

#10 The Kid

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:26 PM

This is the first I'm hearing about the developer charge for Xbox 360, but it's not surprising. I mean they also force developers to charge for DLC when some of them want to release it for free. Hopefully this will change with the next console, otherwise I might just have to play more indie games on the PC.

Developers, come back to Xbox Live/PSN, please? We have cake.

#11 JezMM

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:38 PM

Anyone in the know here know how Nintendo are for this sort of thing? WiiWare, DSiWare and eShop-wise?

#12 Carbo

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:39 PM

You mean Nintendo patches games?

Today is blowing my mind.

#13 JezMM

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

I meant more how kind to indie developers are they in terms of accepting games onto the service, lol.

#14 Carbo

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:46 PM

I'd like to think Nintendo's shitty infrastructure and filesize limits more than often make developers not bat much of an eye to them. 40 meg filecaps be damned. Oh and you don't get the SDK unless you haven't published a game before.

Other than that I think the only recommendations they have is to not be a pretentious douche.

#15 Shirou Emiya

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:59 PM

Considering they raised the bar with the 3DS considerably with a larger storage that comes with the system and forcing eShop stuff to be downloaded to the SD card rather than internal memory, and the WiiU supports external hard drives as well as SD cards, I have a feeling that size constraints are going to a LOT less of an issue than they were with the Wii.

#16 Agent York

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:18 PM

Nintendo requires you to be an approved developer and have access to their developer website to develop anything for their consoles, but they don't have anything like outrageous fees... Though they did need to pick up their game on DLC and patching games. However, I'm speaking of the Wii with this and they've made huge improvements with the 3DS E-Shop, and are continuing to make improvements, and they even address the issue mentioned in the source of the original post that they the Dashboard on Xbox isn't designed to really support the games on it's Marketplace. The 3DS does however, and it sort of 'advertises' the "Best Of", which is determined by reviews and player ratings. The Wii missed this as well, where there wasn't really an easy way to gauge which WiiWare games were good, except by which sold well.

So Nintendo is making improvements it seems. I don't actually know much about how they accept games on the 3DS, however.

#17 Tornado

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:21 PM

Unless Nintendo has gotten rid of that "minimum expected sales restriction" thing that there was a stink about a few years ago, I can't imagine the 3DS or Wii-U would be any more popular among indie developers.

#18 SKANKFUNK

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:34 PM

Yeah, I think the "first time patch is free" thing is annually; having worked with Harmonix (a not-so-indie developer...ish), they kept telling us that patches wouldn't happen quickly, and that they couldn't update their broken Audition Mode for Rock Band until the next year since they'd have to pay something outrageous to up another patch so quickly. I learned that they also have a small number of free DLC "slots" they can use before they have to charge for DLC, or pay to have more free DLC slots. I believe it was 10 free DLC per year. (That is, that they don't charge the consumer.)

Also, Microsoft takes 70% of the profit of each sale in the indie games marketplace. When someone buys a Freen in Green song on Rock Band Network (Which runs off of the indie game marketplace's rules), the band (Collectively) gets 29.9999 cents per dollar, then we have to pay 10% of that towards tax. @_@; It's really really bullshit if you ask me. I could maybe understand Microsoft taking 40%, then 10% to tax, so it's 50/50, but such is not the case.

As for a Nintendo dev kit, you have to (at least) pay $10,000 for the Wii one, and I believe it was $40,000 for the 3DS one. EDIT: I was totally wrong, they're a lot cheaper than that. ~$7000 for 3DS. XD I was looking into that for Pixelated Planet, a game that my band is doing the soundtrack for/making ourselves, but it's waaaaaaay too costly. There were no details on how to get one for a Sony console that I could find anywhere, so I'm not sure about that.

So yeah, it pretty much breaks down like this:

PC - You can develop on these for free! Not so sure about releasing games via Steam. Games for Windows is $100 for a license.
Xbox 360 - $100 USD for the Indie Games Publisher's license, Never looked into the big Devkits.
Nintendo Consoles - *EDIT* Wow, I was wrong, it's like $300ish or something*, The Wii has that stupid 40mb filesize restriction, 3DS's is I think ~500mb, which is better I suppose.
Playstation - Apparently Vita's is $3000. No clue on PS3.


EDIT: Though I've heard that when you're making games with the devkits, Sony is the best to work with, because they get back to you ASAP when you contact them with questions or concerns you have. Nintendo is like that but takes longer, and Microsoft just doesn't give a shit. I can't verify that as true, but it's what I've heard...

Edited by Aptiva, 13 February 2012 - 05:45 PM.


#19 Wreck-It Ralph

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:38 PM

You mean Nintendo patches games?

Today is blowing my mind.


Yeah. Downloadable games only for Wii, everything for 3DS.

#20 Nitwit_Speed

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

The whole indie game thing is one of the coolest aspects about gaming.

I'm expecting that indie games are definitely on the minds of the guys working on the next generation of consoles, and hopefully a lot of these policies are only around because the companies are too lazy to kill them off and are going to try and sweep them under the rug for the next generation. I guess the line of thought behind this is that if they announce that they're killing these policies, people will have only found out about the policies then and the people would loose respect. However, we already know about these policies but not when they get revoked, so fireworks and all sorts of hurrah would be a lot better. The eShop's filesize limit is often assumed to be 40MB.





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