Are you happy with the current direction of the series?

[Scar]

How many times have the changes actually been in accord with what people were asking for?

Problem was, people were being vague, they were over-generalising and generally retarded in the way they asked for things.

You're right, the louder (not always the smarter) voices are heard, and in previous cases, the loudest voices were those of a bunch of morons who don't actually know what they want, or whether what they want will benefit the series in anyway.

People hated the extended cast's gameplay and were stupid in the way they voiced their concerns. So it resulted in a mass sweeping under the carpet of the majority of those characters.

People wanted a 2D game, "like Advanced Series and Rush Series" and simultaneously "Like the classics". The result was the horrid mess that was Episode I of Sonic 4, which was both Rush (physics) AND Classic (level design....ish), and not particularly good at being either of the two.

People wanted to get rid of the Griffith-era voice actors (for no real reason). So they got new ones, which was met with general appraisal, but then a portion who wanted the Griffith-era actors back and another portion of people saying that they're glad the actors are gone, but they wanted the Drummon-era actors back rather than a completely new set.

Another problem is people being too specific thus resulting in contradictory desires. "I love the boost, keep it", "I hate the boost, remove it", and so on and so forth with other details of the gameplay. This is equally unhelpful. In fact I'd go out and say 99% of all our suggestions for improvement are probably bollocks because the majority of us don't know jack shit about video game development and as such have no idea how our suggestions may play out if made into a game.

The Modern gameplay is technically competent, but shallow and limited. That they can make a game that is functional isn't praiseworthy so much as it is the bare minimum of their job. And that they think the Modern gameplay and their piss-poor attempts at classic gameplay are the direction the series should continue in, they're condemning it to failure and mediocrity.

This implies the current gameplay mechanics are inherantly limited and shallow, rather that the current implementation being shallow and limited.

The boost and general mechanics of the Modern gameplay would function perfectly fine with what you would consider good Sonic level design. I mean I think it would be really fun to have the boost with more crazy, curvy and varied stage geometry and topography. It would probably feel a little like the boost in SSX, allowing you to get crazy air-time.

I think your thinking is a little limited to be honest. Its sounding more like you think its impossible to take the current gameplay and make it deeper and more involving without having to change it completely to the "classic" moveset.

I'm not speaking to Unleashed until it does something about its terrible gameplay

He wasn't referring to the gameplay. Unleashed had a fantastic art-style and atmosphere and it most certainly is something worth keeping, regardless of gameplay.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Scar

[Diogenes]

Problem was, people were being vague, they were over-generalising and generally retarded in the way they asked for things.

You're right, the louder (not always the smarter) voices are heard, and in previous cases, the loudest voices were those of a bunch of morons who don't actually know what they want, or whether what they want will benefit the series in anyway.

In fact I'd go out and say 99% of all our suggestions for improvement are probably bollocks because the majority of us don't know jack shit about video game development and as such have no idea how our suggestions may play out if made into a game.

This is the point where it falls to Sonic Team to properly interpret the complaints/suggestions, and above all else, to make a good game. They haven't done a very good job of that.

This implies the current gameplay mechanics are inherantly limited and shallow, rather that the current implementation being shallow and limited.

Yes.

The boost and general mechanics of the Modern gameplay would function perfectly fine with what you would consider good Sonic level design.

You might be able to make a functional game, but that doesn't mean it would be a good one. The modern gameplay mechanics are based around the boost (instant and persistent forward propulsion, requiring only moderate upkeep) and various "key" moves (that is, moves that have very limited use and are mostly tied to specific obstacles that only they "unlock"). Putting Modern gameplay in a more classicish curvy level just adds more vomit cam (since the way the curves affect your speed is largely blunted, if not eliminated entirely, with the boost's constant propulsion) and a bunch of "key" moves that are either effectively useless or just as boring as they are now, depending on if they add the obstacles they unlock.

I think your thinking is a little limited to be honest. Its sounding more like you think its impossible to take the current gameplay and make it deeper and more involving without having to change it completely to the "classic" moveset.

It doesn't necessarily need to be the classic moveset (though it damn well should be based on it), but I don't believe the Modern moveset, without severe modifications, can accomplish much more than it already has. It is designed for high speed dodging and not much else. If you have arguments to the contrary I'll gladly consider them, but simply insisting that it can be used for more doesn't do it for me.

He wasn't referring to the gameplay.

Yes, that's the problem. The gameplay is what I'm most concerned with.

[neezTHEhuman]

Honestly, I think the boost has a lot of untapped potential to be really good fun (the important thing here) if they made the physics a little better and introduced more curvy level geometry.

The boost especially in its current form shits on Sonic's platforming roots because it requires its own sections which are automated race tracks or 'grind tracks' and and what you have written about physics and curvy level geometry makes no sense in a boost game. Physics from the classics are completely redundant if the boost is included because for example if you want to run round a loop in Sonic 1 Green Hill zone you have to take a run up to build up enough speed first but with the boost you just press the button and off you go. Also curvy level design requires a moving camera and at boost speeds unless you are running forward in a straight line the camera will break because it cannot keep up. Ever wondered why Sonic is slow and boostless in the wide open explorable 3D hub worlds of unleashed? Well that (the camera) is the reason.

As for boost gameplay being fun that is pure opinion. Maybe holding boost on a grind rail, switching rails to avoid spikes and then pressing jump at the end of the rail (all pseudo quicktime events) to enter a sequence of boost rings (automation) is some people's idea of fun but to me it is: at first visually appealing but quickly gets boring thanks to little player input and also irritating because of the trial and error nature.

[Soniman]

As for boost gameplay being fun that is pure opinion. Maybe holding boost on a grind rail, switching rails to avoid spikes and then pressing jump at the end of the rail (all pseudo quicktime events) to enter a sequence of boost rings (automation) is some people's idea of fun but to me it is: at first visually appealing but quickly gets boring thanks to little player input and also irritating because of the trial and error nature.

I am so sick of these kinds of generalizations regarding the modern gameplay and the condescending tone that comes with it, especially when It's not goddamn true at all.

[Scar]

It doesn't necessarily need to be the classic moveset (though it damn well should be based on it), but I don't believe the Modern moveset, without severe modifications, can accomplish much more than it already has. It is designed for high speed dodging and not much else. If you have arguments to the contrary I'll gladly consider them, but simply insisting that it can be used for more doesn't do it for me.

Probably best not to discuss this here, so I'll talk about this elsewhere.

[Kuzu]

I already explained what I think about this one above.

Whether the minority that did shout "Kill everyone but Sonic" should be listened to or not is irrelevant in this case, the bottom line is, Sega tried to appeal to that crowd, and got mixed results.

Sonic 4 is not classic.

Are you seriously getting literal? Its a fucking metaphor that people wanted more 2D games.

True, and this one actually went over very well, at least compared to last time.

True, but you still have your detractors and whatnot.

[Diogenes]

Are you seriously getting literal? Its a fucking metaphor that people wanted more 2D games.

I think it's pretty reasonable to point out that when people asked for more games like the classics, Sega failed to provide games that are actually like the classics.

True, but you still have your detractors and whatnot.

Okay, so Sega can't please literally everyone. Conclusion: ???

[Mono]

I'm just going to say (and I haven't played any of the Wii games), based on Sonic Generations, its moving in the right direction.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jay Rockman

[Voyant]

With the quality of the games rising from a technical aspect we are reaching a point now that no matter how good Sonic gets not everyone is going to be happy with said direction. Companies, regardless of how of how loud the minority may speak, will always go with the majority...its just the way things go in buisness.

With that being said, new fans are created to replace the naysayers or older fans may come back who are now interested since the quality is back on track...At this point I don't really think Sonic Team or SEGA gives a fuck about the few people who don't like where the series is going. Especially that there is indeed nothing wrong with the current gameplay for a tech perspective...Its not like people aren't enjoying the current style...its actually the complete opposite.

Now its really just falls in personal preference...like people saying they enjoyed Mario 64's more open ended approach to Galaxy 2's gameplay...or vice-versa. Mario fans tend to get into the same heated arguments about that like we do about current stuff. They are both though, well executed games at their core regardless of this.

The only major glaring flaw ST has with Sonic at the moment is Atmosphere and Direction. That's something I truly believe is worth voicing, from that perspective...the games recently are lacking.

****

Myself I was expecting Generations to further split people views on Sonic from a general gamer perspective, but surprisingly as time passed the Modern Style is actually shining and is being well respected.

Instead of the usual "Sonic Sucks" people are now defending when people talk bad about him lately...which is amazing compared to what was going on before.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[SolidSurgeTT]

Eh, not entirely. I like to think I'm not a drama-whore but...I dunno, the deeper stories felt like the series was growing up with its audience.

Sonic 360 screwed it all up, though. Too ambitious and too confusing.

[sonfan1984]

Is Colours/Generations meant for pre-schoolers or what?

Colors is aimed for kids (atleast thats what they've said) and Generations is aim for everybody.

[Mono]

Colors look awesome (I'm 23), I really need to get a copy.

[Phos]

Well, if they keep improving like they have done these last few years, boost or not, level design will probably become something close to what we want it to be. Honestly, I think the boost has a lot of untapped potential to be really good fun (the important thing here) if they made the physics a little better and introduced more curvy level geometry.

The boost makes curved levels pointless because it holds you at a constant speed.

I like the direction, only because its moving upwards. There is no real "direction", because as the gameplay improves it will evolve and change to facilitate further improvement.

Is there a direction or isn't there?

I don't see any real improvement. Like I said in the other thread, the controls are similar enough that they seem to have just tweaked a few values. Basically how sharp the drift turns, and disabled camera control for some reason. They also resigned a few buttons.

They also made these areas that look open but really just replace walls with death, or just have you looking for the homing attack chain to move on. Of course, none of them really work, the controls were blatantly not designed for this sort of thing and there's no real reason for them being open other than being open. There's nothing in them, and if you're playing right (because the games still feel the need to decide for you what that is) you're just looking to get out of them as fast as possible.

I wish everyone felt this way. But no, we're split between the Classic Era fans, the Dreamcast Era fans, the Modern Era fans and "People who don't give a shit, and just want to see a good game" Era fans.

Consistency with their more immediate output is the last thing I want right now.

Hey, you know what game came out recently that uses slope physics that a lot of people seem to really like? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0iNYYm4_h8. I mean, who would expect it to be in a Sonic game?

[Kuzu]

.

Consistency with their more immediate output is the last thing I want right now.

Hey, you know what game came out recently that uses slope physics that a lot of people seem to really like? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0iNYYm4_h8. I mean, who would expect it to be in a Sonic game?

You know what game came out that everyone liked? Sonic Generations, but apparently it suck, and its not good enough. So we have to scrap everything again, and try to please even more people who want what they want.

[Phos]

Not really my point, but how long can what they're doing really be expected to last?

[Kuzu]

Not really my point, but how long can what they're doing really be expected to last?

What gives you the impression that it won't because by that logic, it should have died out after Unleashed and yet here we are in 2012 and I haven't seen anybody with major complaints about Generations.

[Phos]

What gives you the impression that it won't because by that logic, it should have died out after Unleashed and yet here we are in 2012 and I haven't seen anybody with major complaints about Generations.

Taken literally this makes it sound like you believe me to be a figment of your imagination. But I get the idea that isn't what you mean.

[Diogenes]

What gives you the impression that it won't because by that logic, it should have died out after Unleashed and yet here we are in 2012 and I haven't seen anybody with major complaints about Generations.

What, I don't count?

That the gameplay managed to last more than one game doesn't mean it can last indefinitely. Generations feels like it's straining against the limitations of Unleashed-style gameplay; they've added more platforming, but it's still something that exists apart from the rest of the gameplay. And the rest of the gameplay is still the same shallow high-speed dodging.

[Nepenthe]

In general, I would figure the game play style would last as long as it's earning the games good critical scores and credibility amongst the public again for the fact that it's solid and fun (or until Iizuka gets bored in the next few years).

[Voyant]

What, I don't count?

More like Sega doesn't really care. Your fighting a losing battle here...you might as well go to SEGA yourself and pull out a gun on Iz if you want things to honestly change substantially.

Majority rules. That is life regardless if you like it or not.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[KHCast]

More like Sega doesn't really care. Your fighting a losing battle here...you might as well go to SEGA yourself and pull out a gun on Iz if you want things to honestly change majorly

Majority rules.

That doesn't mean he can't try to get their attention or the attention of others on problems/issues that are in the games while giving his ideas on how to fix those things.

[Voyant]

That doesn't mean he can't try to get their attention or the attention of others on problems/issues that are in the games while giving his ideas on how to fix those things.

Of course... by all means complain and discuss this is a forum...but reality is this.

1 or 4 voices out of a 100 that are different are not enough to make MAJOR changes. You know why we started to go the only Sonic route? Because enough people complained about it regardless if its was mostly general gamers.

But allow me to excuse myself because at this point I'm sounding pretty hypocritical so let use a better frame of thought.

****

We are sitting in a classroom of 20...Dio and I raised our hand against something...like for example we wanted Pizza...but the rest of the class wanted Taco Bell....in the end what going to happen regardless of how much we complain? Its not like both of these foods from a general perspective taste bad...they are both loved, but stll the class wanted Taco Bell so that that.

If Modern style stuck with us for 10 years with minor complaints....it would be because it still satisfying a mass audience...this is just the way things are in business.

If me and Dio don't get what we want in the end...we either suck it up and eat it...or DON'T EAT AT ALL....

Edited March 16, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Soniman]

Doesn't the "majority" of folks who know nothing of Sonic say he's only about speed, but the "minority" of the fanbase who actually know better say Sonic is more than that? And hasn't games like Colors and Generations address those complaints somewhat by adding in heaps more platforming?

[Voyant]

Doesn't the "majority" of folks who know nothing of Sonic say he's only about speed, but the "minority" of the fanbase who actually know better say Sonic is more than that? And hasn't games like Colors and Generations address those complaints somewhat by adding in heaps more platforming?

I think from a general perspective doing this in Sonic games depends on the main directors vision of the game. Iz most likely liked what he saw in Day Time Unleashed...and because of the mass positive reaction to it...he spiced it up. You get a meal that people found out taste good without a said sauce...you use another sauce and see if it works. Simple.

And there we go now we got a great meal that most people like. Its not rocket science...although I will say that fan feed back sure helped in some regard.

Anyway that is all I've got to say.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Nepenthe]

This goes for both sides: Breaking fans down into groups of minorities and majorities by way of their complaints is not only basically appealing to the majority, but it's also a completely futile endeavor because you can't get even decent numbers in the first place. It's about as successful and meaningful a discussion tactic as our ever beloved food metaphors, which is to say not at all- at least for anything more than advertising your biases and probably belittling others' opinions in the process. It also does little to assuage the tone of conversation.

tl;dr: Just because I like the current speed of Sonic games does not make me ignorant. Just because someone doesn't like it doesn't mean their complaints are inherently worthless because others do like it. Srsly guise. <<;;