Are you happy with the current direction of the series?

[Voyant]

tl;dr: Just because I like the current speed of Sonic games does not make me ignorant. Just because someone doesn't like it doesn't mean their complaints are inherently worthless because others do like it. Srsly guise. <<;;

This is indeed true, I'm just going with the current flow of what I personally think is going on...is not like SSMB is the only place I hang out at, but that being said I did not intend to try and belittle the negatives. In some ways all that complaining is what got us here compared to 7 years ago, but I just wonder how much an effective tactic complaining can be when less and less people have something to complain about.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Nepenthe]

Debate and discussion is really the only way to make our voices heard on certain matters. And considering we've went through a decade of sweeping changes and outright reconstruction, it's my belief you're not going to get a solid majority on any one idea. So you've got to speak up if you want Sega to hear your thoughts in the sea of thoughts out there. I frankly don't find this a problem until people start taking ad hominem potshots at their opponent. It's a shitty thing to do and a shitty feeling overall when you're in someone's crossfire over a fictional blue hedgehog.

But enough of my high-horse. I'll answer the topic and say that I'm happy with the current direction... sans the story, but I'm sure everyone knows that by now. Needs more darkness interesting and relevant conflict. =P

[Kuzu]

Taken literally this makes it sound like you believe me to be a figment of your imagination. But I get the idea that isn't what you mean.

What, I don't count?

That the gameplay managed to last more than one game doesn't mean it can last indefinitely. Generations feels like it's straining against the limitations of Unleashed-style gameplay; they've added more platforming, but it's still something that exists apart from the rest of the gameplay. And the rest of the gameplay is still the same shallow high-speed dodging.

I'm talking about more than two people, not that your complaints aren't valid just that, like Nephy said, no one can really ignore the praise these games have been getting regardless if they're not as involved in the fanbase as we are, so the praise is just as important as the criticism in this case.

The praise helps the developers know what the public likes, and what to keep when developing future projects. The criticism helps them address the problems from the original product despite its praise.

I like Unleashed-Generations, but I can agree that major improvements can be made, but that however doesn't mean the games are bad, just flawed like every good thing we like.

[SpeedKeed]

I'm really enjoying the new direction. The storylines have a perfect blend of action and comedy, I love the look of Sonic and his latest voice, and the gameplay got sometime getting to familiarize with but I managed. So yeah, I'm enjoying it and I hope it continues.

[-Mark-]

As lots have people have said already; from a gameplay perspective, I think the series has rarely been better. Problem is now that everything outside of the gameplay (plot, atmosphere, substance etc, most of what Verte said in her first post) pretty much sucks.

So yeah, we're getting better games, but in turn we're getting much emptier experiences out of them. The new games are a blast to play, but they're so shallow and uninvolving beyond that that they don't feel particularly immersive or absorbing.

[Phos]

It certainly doesn't help things that every time a negative review is published a bunch of white knights (blue knights?) swarm the site. I think most of them are reading this post, yeah I think it's a vocal minority. That Facebook poll they did where they asked people what version of Sonic they preferred and it was a landslide in favor of classic was pretty funny.

As scathing as that (might?) seem, I don't want to give the impression that I think people are dumb for liking it. For me it's very similar to how so many people like Mass Effect 2. I like what they were going for, but the way the game decides who lives and dies is too mechanical and detached from what actually happens during the mission.

There's definitely something there to the speed but I want it in a, for lack of a better term, more meaningful way.

[Chaos Warp]

I think the reason they added platforming into Generations is because the dev team knew that Sonic wasn't all about speed, so they added platforming into the already-good Unleashed gameplay.

[Kuzu]

I think the reason they added platforming into Generations is because the dev team knew that Sonic wasn't all about speed, so they added platforming into the already-good Unleashed gameplay.

Wish it wasn't so generic and basic. I at least appreciate that they tried, even if they did miss the point.

[Chaos Warp]

Wish it wasn't so generic and basic. I at least appreciate that they tried, even if they did miss the point.

I half agree with this. It's not really basic, really complex actually but I can see it's not really Sonic slope-y. As for level gimmicks, I feel that would be the easiest thing to do next. Mario can do a million things with his spin, why can't Sonic do a million things with his boost?

[Diogenes]

Mario can do a million things with his spin, why can't Sonic do a million things with his boost?

Like what?

I don't think the boost can possibly be anywhere near as much a multitool as Mario's spin. The inherent nature of the boost is to fling the player forwards at high speeds; this greatly limits what you can ask the player to use it for. If you ask the player to boost into something, and they happen to be off target by a little bit, that may very well kill them; they'll fly past the object, and likely off of the level, given the way they're usually designed. And even if the level isn't a narrow path over a death pit, they'll end up launching themself into a corner somewhere, and then either skip it entirely (if possible), or trudge back (because boosting backwards is essentially boosting blind, which makes it even more dangerous than boosting forward) and try again. With Mario's spin, you end up in roughly the same place you started (a bit higher up, if you did it in the air), which in most cases means you're perfectly safe and in prime position to try again (there are exceptions, but they're exceptions, not the rule, and you're generally in a better situation than the boost would have you be, anyway).

In general the faster a game is the less precision you can ask of the player. Sonic games, by their nature, are always going to be less precise than Mario games. So to ask the superfast move in the superfast game to have anywhere the nuance and variety of use as a slow and more methodical move in a slower and more methodical game...I don't see how it can work.

[Chaos Warp]

Like what?

I don't think the boost can possibly be anywhere near as much a multitool as Mario's spin. The inherent nature of the boost is to fling the player forwards at high speeds; this greatly limits what you can ask the player to use it for. If you ask the player to boost into something, and they happen to be off target by a little bit, that may very well kill them; they'll fly past the object, and likely off of the level, given the way they're usually designed. And even if the level isn't a narrow path over a death pit, they'll end up launching themself into a corner somewhere, and then either skip it entirely (if possible), or trudge back (because boosting backwards is essentially boosting blind, which makes it even more dangerous than boosting forward) and try again. With Mario's spin, you end up in roughly the same place you started (a bit higher up, if you did it in the air), which in most cases means you're perfectly safe and in prime position to try again (there are exceptions, but they're exceptions, not the rule, and you're generally in a better situation than the boost would have you be, anyway).

In general the faster a game is the less precision you can ask of the player. Sonic games, by their nature, are always going to be less precise than Mario games. So to ask the superfast move in the superfast game to have anywhere the nuance and variety of use as a slow and more methodical move in a slower and more methodical game...I don't see how it can work.

I agree. Well, I don't think you need to have level gimmicks with the boost, you could have it more classic-styled.

[Alluusio]

Like what?

I don't think the boost can possibly be anywhere near as much a multitool as Mario's spin. The inherent nature of the boost is to fling the player forwards at high speeds; this greatly limits what you can ask the player to use it for. If you ask the player to boost into something, and they happen to be off target by a little bit, that may very well kill them; they'll fly past the object, and likely off of the level, given the way they're usually designed. And even if the level isn't a narrow path over a death pit, they'll end up launching themself into a corner somewhere, and then either skip it entirely (if possible), or trudge back (because boosting backwards is essentially boosting blind, which makes it even more dangerous than boosting forward) and try again. With Mario's spin, you end up in roughly the same place you started (a bit higher up, if you did it in the air), which in most cases means you're perfectly safe and in prime position to try again (there are exceptions, but they're exceptions, not the rule, and you're generally in a better situation than the boost would have you be, anyway).

In general the faster a game is the less precision you can ask of the player. Sonic games, by their nature, are always going to be less precise than Mario games. So to ask the superfast move in the superfast game to have anywhere the nuance and variety of use as a slow and more methodical move in a slower and more methodical game...I don't see how it can work.

Sonic Rush had some items that would act differently depending on the speed you ran into them. Boosting into them usually led to a completely different path. Night Carnival had those horizontal spiral things for example. You also had to use boost to reach special stages. Of course things that worked in a 2D game would be difficult to use in 3D.

Also, remember how Sweet Mountain had those lollipops? They also used boost as a platforming element. Still, they should do more of that, especially in 3D. It's a move that might have potential, but so far it has only acted as a button which increases Sonic's speed and made the level design more linear. I personally think it has done more harm than good so far but I can see how it might add something to the gameplay if it was used cleverly.

[Nepenthe]

Very few of Sonic's maneuvers, if any, have ever been anything more than both a simultaneous method of movement and attack, much less have any of them been able to have significant use outside of the pieces of level design that were designed for them in mind. That's pretty much been the modus operandi since the beginning as far as designing the way Sonic moves about.

[Kuzu]

I half agree with this. It's not really basic, really complex actually but I can see it's not really Sonic slope-y. As for level gimmicks, I feel that would be the easiest thing to do next. Mario can do a million things with his spin, why can't Sonic do a million things with his boost?

I still don't see how square blocks are complex, but I don't feel like dwelling. The problem is coming up for different things with the boost to do, like Dio said, its main function is to make you go faster which by default limits its uses beyond that. With Mario's spin, it helps you do a lot of things because its simple and stationary, Sonic's boost only serves to make you go forward.

[Nepenthe]

The boost is also an offensive mechanic; don't forget that. Regardless, how is the lack of multi-functionality significantly different from any other move Sonic has had in his little spikey life?

[Kuzu]

The boost is also an offensive mechanic; don't forget that. Regardless, how is the lack of multi-functionality significantly different from any other move Sonic has had in his little spikey life?

Because Sonic's moves all had different uses instead of the level being tied to primarily one.

[Nepenthe]

Because Sonic's moves all had different uses instead of the level being tied to primarily one.

That is fundamentally a level design problem, not a maneuvering one.

I reiterate, most of Sonic's moves generally have two uses: to move him a specific way across different pieces of level design and to give him some offensiveness in the process of moving. This is how his jump, roll, Spin Dash, Homing Attack, and Boost primarily function. However the level design is built around them is another story as we can clearly see by looking at, say, S3&K and S4, or even S3&K and SCD.

[Diogenes]

The boost is also an offensive mechanic

Badum-tss!

Regardless, how is the lack of multi-functionality significantly different from any other move Sonic has had in his little spikey life?

Well for me, it's not that the boost doesn't have a million and one uses, but that it only has a few, and they're not very deep, but they dominate the gameplay regardless. None of the Genesis moves have a particularly wide variety of uses, but there's more nuance to them and interplay between them.

e: Non-joke response to the boost also being an attack: True, but I think that's actually contributing to the boost doing too much. It's hardly the first ability in the series to combine movement and attacking, but the boost doesn't really have much to balance that out. Rolling lets you move and attack, but it leaves you at the mercy of the terrain until you get back on your feet. The spindash sends you into a roll with a burst of speed, but you need(ed) to stop and charge it up first, and once you release you've got the same limitations as regular rolling. But in recent games, a lot of times ground-based enemies are worthless, since you're probably boosting already; they may as well be boost energy item boxes.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

What do you mean by nuance and interplay specifically? They all work under a physics system that gives them a commendable consistency and feel, but they are fairly disconnected in terms of how you use them. Have a hill? Roll or- if you're impatient- Spin Dash, and watch Sonic do as he will do. See some platforms or an enemy? Jump. No action is meant or designed to even be used in conjunction with one other, and you get the most mileage out of them only in specific situations.

Edit: Didn't catch your addendum. Urgh, this is what I get for going to a con.

Anyway, the checks you describe fo r those maneuvers don't seem to be particularly consequential in the grand scheme of things. Being at the mercy of the terrain means one of three things: You get to where you need to go, you hit a blocky platforming element, or you hit something dangerous, a considerably rare occurence which is immediately derided as cheap level design anyway. Doesn't seem like all that risky a maneuver. Stopping to use the Spin Dash (in some cases) also doesn't really check the power of the maneuver.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Phos]

Sonic Rush had some items that would act differently depending on the speed you ran into them. Boosting into them usually led to a completely different path. Night Carnival had those horizontal spiral things for example. You also had to use boost to reach special stages. Of course things that worked in a 2D game would be difficult to use in 3D.

[Nepenthe]

Both the jump and the roll behave differently depending on the angle of the floor, so unless any non-level surface counts as an area made with them in mind I can't agree there. Well, technically any feature of the level is going to be made with them in mind otherwise you aren't really designing for the abilities, though the circumstances of using them tend to be more varied due to having a looser requirement to be useful.

While the math describing your motions is designed to vary the movement depending upon the angle of the floor, that doesn't change either maneuvers' inherent uses. It merely means- as you said- you have a bit more room to exploit them in a few different situations, but I figure at the end of the day we should simply call a spade a spade. The jump and roll, and indeed most of Sonic's more notable maneuvers, have two primary functions: That of moving you in a specific way whilst simultaneously acting as attacks. How they are more specifically programmed and how the level design is built around them are a different subject altogether.

Can it really be considered offensive when it renders the enemies so ineffectual they might as well not be there? It kind of seems like calling a vacuum cleaner a weapon for use on dust.

Not every enemy in the modern games are the normal Egg Fighters/Pawns or Motobugs standing obliviously in your way; this is an oversimplification of the enemy rosters and the gameplay itself that needs to disappear. If you've not taken an actual attack from an enemy whilst boosting- or even just moving too quickly regardless- I dare say you haven't played any of these games at all.

I actually thought she was being sarcastic.

Your case of the enemy or platform isn't taking into account where Sonic is coming from or personal play styles. For example, I personally combine them in several ways - If I'm not sure whether I'll hit an enemy on the ground before landing, I can hold down so I'll roll if I land short, I often jump before going down drop offs that lead to quarter pipes which gives me extra speed at the bottom, or rolling to take out a closer enemy and then jumping to hit a farther one. And I don't actually spin dash often.

My maintenance is that you can't really combine them, and by combine I mean use them simultaneously. That's simply the nature of those abilities. You can use them in quick succession properly (if you're even remotely aware of what's coming up ahead in the first place) or, in the case of your former two examples, you can use them to exploit kinks in the level design. But then again, I don't see this as particularly unique to the classics: I and most other modern nuts have a habit of doing exactly the same with the moves we have at our disposal in Unleashed-styled games.

If I'm boosting and find myself in the air, I use the Stomp to kill unnecessary air time. Sometimes there's a dash panel below me, in which case I use the Stomp as well to target it, getting an automatic dash forward and conserved energy. Depending on the enemy placement relative to me and what I want to do, I can choose to either Stomp the enemy, Air Dash through it, or Homing Attack it to get somewhere else. In levels where there are vertically stacked paths and divergences going on, such as Savannah Citadel, Jungle Joyride, or most anything in Generations, conservative boosting is the only way to get myself on a specific path if I'm feeling particularly picky about where I want to go at the moment.

[Phos]

While the math describing your motions is designed to vary the movement depending upon the angle of the floor, that doesn't change either maneuvers' inherent uses. It merely means- as you said- you have a bit more room to exploit them in a few different situations, but I figure at the end of the day we should simply call a spade a spade. The jump and roll, and indeed most of Sonic's more notable maneuvers, have two primary functions: That of moving you in a specific way whilst simultaneously acting as attacks. How they are more specifically programmed and how the level design is built around them are a different subject altogether.

Ultimately the point I'm trying to get across/demonstrate is that these moves have a lot more different ways that you end up using them.

Not every enemy in the modern games are the normal Egg Fighters/Pawns or Motobugs standing obliviously in your way; this is an oversimplification of the enemy rosters and the gameplay itself that needs to disappear. If you've not taken an actual attack from an enemy whilst boosting- or even just moving too quickly regardless- I dare say you haven't played any of these games at all.

That's true of Unleashed, but I don't recall any enemies that was actually able to get in your way in Generations.

My maintenance is that you can't really combine them, and by combine I mean use them simultaneously. That's simply the nature of those abilities. You can use them in quick succession properly (if you're even remotely aware of what's coming up ahead in the first place) or, in the case of your former two examples, you can use them to exploit kinks in the level design. But then again, I don't see this as particularly unique to the classics: I and most other modern nuts have a habit of doing exactly the same with the moves we have at our disposal in Unleashed-styled games.

If I'm boosting and find myself in the air, I use the Stomp to kill unnecessary air time. Sometimes there's a dash panel below me, in which case I use the Stomp as well to target it, getting an automatic dash forward and conserved energy. Depending on the enemy placement relative to me and what I want to do, I can choose to either Stomp the enemy, Air Dash through it, or Homing Attack it to get somewhere else. In levels where there are vertically stacked paths and divergences going on, such as Savannah Citadel, Jungle Joyride, or most anything in Generations, conservative boosting is the only way to get myself on a specific path if I'm feeling particularly picky about where I want to go at the moment.

I do the same kinds of things, but it doesn't feel as fluent or "nice".

[Nepenthe]

Ultimately the point I'm trying to get across/demonstrate is that these moves have a lot more different ways that you end up using them.

[Milo]

Eh, not really. Only thing I like as of now is the current (Generations HD's) gameplay and level design for both 2D and 3D stages; which still need some work.

[Diogenes]

What do you mean by nuance and interplay specifically? They all work under a physics system that gives them a commendable consistency and feel,

Well, that, pretty much. Everything's tied together under a fairly complex (compared to most platformers) and intuitive system, which means the moves act differently but predictably in different situations.

but they are fairly disconnected in terms of how you use them.

Yeah I suppose it's not the moves themselves that have interplay, but the whole system of mechanics.

No action is meant or designed to even be used in conjunction with one other,

Not directly, maybe, but the way the physics and momentum tie things together adds some continuity to the gameplay. The trajectory of your jumps are in part dependent on your speed, and your speed is dependent on how you've run, rolled, jumped, etc through the obstacles just prior.

Anyway, the checks you describe fo r those maneuvers don't seem to be particularly consequential in the grand scheme of things. Being at the mercy of the terrain means one of three things: You get to where you need to go, you hit a blocky platforming element, or you hit something dangerous, a considerably rare occurence which is immediately derided as cheap level design anyway. Doesn't seem like all that risky a maneuver.

Option 4: you slow down/stop, because the terrain's too flat or too uphill. And I don't think the player needs to be sternly punished for doing the wrong thing (honestly that's more like the modern games' attempt at balance, flinging you into the void for boosting in the wrong place), just that there's a reasonable balance between the mechanics.

Stopping to use the Spin Dash (in some cases) also doesn't really check the power of the maneuver.

I think Sonic Adventure and Generations Classic disprove this pretty solidly...you can spend large portions of the levels spamming the spindash since there's almost no consequence to it, but I can't imagine playing like that in the Genesis games.

Being given the ability to direct your momentum in all kinds of ways at top speed doesn't feel fluent (and probably shouldn't), but in return it certainly does feel powerful. I'm okay with such a trade-off.

I have to say, I really don't feel powerful playing modern Sonic games. At least, I haven't since I adjusted to the high speeds (which...I'm not sure was actually feeling powerful in the first place, as much as it was feeling overwhelmed) and after the first few times I plowed through a group of Egg Fighters. The problem is that I can't really do anything that they didn't specifically design for me to do; it doesn't feel like I'm using Sonic's abilities to forge my own path, but that I'm just pressing the right things at the right times to stick to the path they laid out for me. And I realize that every game is designed, and that even in the Genesis games I spend most of the game following paths laid out for me, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to make games so completely rigid as the modern ones. I can go into Stardust Speedway and launch myself from all kinds of curves and hills, and I may not always land somewhere beneficial, but I know I won't be unduly punished for daring to try something I wasn't told to do. And when I do end up launching myself somewhere beneficial? That feels powerful.