299 replies to this topic

[Carbo]

If you got my point, then why say you're confused at what I'm getting at? Ok, fair enough, you thought it was directed at you. However, again, it was really to explain to anyone here who thinks the example line given by -Mark- sounds far less interesting than the "adapted for English audiences" line it became.

You pretty much answered your own question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that one.

[ChaoChao]

You pretty much answered your own question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that one.

I was making the point that I feel it should have been self-explanatory from the beginning.. =P Either way, sorry if I wasn't clear enough either. Moving on..

Edited by ChaoChao, 04 March 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Actually I agree, all of the pre rival/boss fight cutscenes with Modern Sonic showed him not uttering a single word, looking determined, and showing off several feats of badassery, stuff like that id like to see more of.

It'd be better if he just said a single one liner on the subject and left it at that. The problem with Colors is that it would take a joke, and beat it into the ground until its just not funny anymore, that I will agree Colors did very badly. Like if he just said "Too Easy" in the smuggest tone ever after that fight, it would've been even more badass.

Sonic shouldn't talk if he doesn't need to, not that I want his dialogue cut down, but he doesn't need to be going on for 30 seconds on the same joke, just say what you gotta say and whup some ass.

English Script: "Time to scramble some Eggman, Super Sonic Style!"

Japanese Script: "Now the real fight starts, take a look at our power" (rough literal translation, basically "That was nothing, now we'll show you what we've really got").

That's the biggest example I can think of, because it's one where I'm completely sure what's being said in Japanese (and also the English dialogue there is horrific). As I said in the status updates earlier, my biggest issue with the current English dialogue is that it tries too hard to seem 'cool' and cocky (i.e. "You and what moustache?", "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me", etc etc- not 100% sure on the Japanese for those lines), whereas the Japanese dialogue sounds a lot more natural and normal. The 'cool' English dialogue comes off as pitifully forced and unnatural to the point where it's just cringeworthy, embarrassing and painfully cheesy, at least in my opinion.

Also, as Verte pointed out in the status updates earlier as well, all of Tails' translator jokes in Colours were outright painful in English. If the script for that game was indeed written in English first, it's quite baffling how they managed to make the jokes make far more sense in Japanese, since it was confusing words for similar-sounding words, rather than coming up with absolutely unrelated (and painfully unfunny) nonsense for erroneous translations. At least for the most part, anyway. I suppose porpoise/ purpose is passable, although that was probably about the only instance.

Carbo pretty much nailed it. That line sounds like some generic shonen crap, which is honestly just as boring as the American dialogue, so it can really go both ways.

[mikeblastdude]

I don't think Sonic should be absolutely mute, but I definitely wouldn't mind if he talked a bit less. I'm all for the whole "actions speak louder than words" thing. I'd like to see Sonic more like this again:



After escaping the deadly collapse of Eggman's base and saving Amy Rose's life, Sonic sets her down and speeds off without saying a word. I personally think that's one of Sonic's coolest moments ever.

I have to admit though, I did still like the story in Colors quite a bit for what it was...

Edited by mikeblastdude, 04 March 2012 - 04:53 AM.

[Voyant]

You know what could the source of Sonic's problems just be that their trying to make a supposed Japanese persona likable in America?

Good example being that the Sonic fans in Japan...from what I have seen...correct me if I'm wrong...ate up Sonic 2006 story. They loved it...while we are like..."wtf? is going on".

I think this is the source of the problem here....Sonic trying to appease personality wise to 2 different demographics at once so his dialogue just comes off at awkward on both sides.

We think Sonic too corny while the Japanese think Sonic too Americanized...maybe that's the reason for such the lack of interest in Japan.

Which is funny since this could all be remedied with Sonic talking less...XD

Edited by Voy-Boy, 04 March 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

You know what could the source of Sonic's problems just be that their trying to make a supposed Japanese persona likable in America?

Good example being that the Sonic fans in Japan...from what I have seen...correct me if I'm wrong...ate up Sonic 2006 story. They loved it...while we are like..."wtf? is going on".

I think this is the source of the problem here....Sonic trying to appease personality wise to 2 different demographics at once so his dialogue just comes off at awkward on both sides.

We think Sonic too corny while the Japanese think Sonic too Americanized...maybe that's the reason for such the lack of interest in Japan.

Which is funny since this could all be remedied with Sonic talking less...XD

Japan's idea of a good character is basically a Goku expy of some kind, while we have different standards.


This is definitely new, Sonic seems out of place in literally two mediums; Most Americans probably find him to whitebread, while Japan probably thinks he too westernized.

My problem with Sonic talking less is that I kind of think its robbing him of a personal trait, I mean he's a speedster, how many speedsters do you know that AREN't motor mouths? Sonic is no exception; I like to see Sonic having fun doing what he does instead of approaching every situation with the same stone faced determination.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

The problem with Sonic having anything the Japanese find interesting is the fact that Sonic never really sold well in Japan since the Genesis, at least in comparison to the West. Yeah, I'm using VGCharts for that and I know the deal behind them (somewhat), but it's the only source I have available to present.

I honestly can't say you'd make Sonic anymore likable to the Japanese unless you went more of the DBZ route...and I would discourage that because we've seen a bit too much of it.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I honestly can't say you'd make Sonic anymore likable to the Japanese unless you went more of the DBZ route...and I would discourage that because we've seen a bit too much of it.

That and its cliched as fuck.

Ironically enough Shadow was popular as the 2nd most popular character meaning I don;t think Japan care much about cliches.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

I don't particularly mind cliches myself. My problem with them mainly comes from how blatant they're made out to be.

If you made something that emulates off another, and yet it offers it's own unique spice to the recipe, then bravo you've made it less of a cliche. If you take something that makes it so obvious that you flat out rip-off from another series, then you clearly need to add something unique.

Eh, I probably didn't say that right, but hopefully you know what I meant.

[Voyant]

To be honest though what isn't cliche nowadays?

I rather do something cliche and excel at it...than be stuck in limbo with a bad taste in everyone mouth. Its because ST doesn't want to do anything cliche is why we are stuck with them having a condom wrapped tightly around Sonic that they are not going to take off any time soon due to the fan base being so over critical.

The thing about "stories" is that even some of the best stories ever written are not going to please everyone.

If you don't use some cliches then your stuck with a boring as fuck character all the same. If you don't think the entertainment industry is running out of ideas...just look at movies...how many of them are remakes of something nowadays? The gaming industry is running out of ideas too...so there is going to be a line were we are going to, as a fanbase, settle with...unless you want to settle with Sonic games having shit boring atmospheres for the rest of the franchise

There is nothing wrong using a cliche....is all on the execution of said cliche is what matters. A recent a great example of this is Chronicle...that just recently came out...while its not the best thing ever..it executed a cliche of super powered teens rather well and felt very fresh.

Edit:

Also a very important thing that we must all remember is Sonic is franchise that is supposed to appease to large demographic of people, but right now the lead target is children. Kids growing up right now are new to all these cliches that we discuss...they don't know what cliche is because they don't have something to fall back upon...to those of us of higher age we need to understand that as well.

What may be boring as fuck to us...may be the coolest shit ever to someone at the age of 10-13.

Edited by Voy-Boy, 04 March 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Like CSS said, there's nothing wrong with Cliches, as long as they're not blatant and played painfully straight; Like someone went over to Tvtropes and checked off what tropes they want to use.

[Voyant]

Like CSS said, there's nothing wrong with Cliches, as long as they're not blatant and played painfully straight; Like someone went over to Tvtropes and checked off what tropes they want to use.

I think TV tropes can apply to anything and anyone...no matter how "original" of a plot you make. You can check of a list of tropes you want to use, but again at the end is how you use them in a characterization of someone. Some tropes have been done really shitty while some have been done excellently.

Edited by Voy-Boy, 04 March 2012 - 07:06 AM.

[Komodin]

I think TV tropes can apply to anything and anyone...no matter how "original" of a plot you make. You can check of a list of tropes you want to use, but again at the end is how you use them in a characterization of someone. Some tropes have been done really shitty while some have been done excellently.

In other words, tropes are tools, basically.

[-Mark-]

Carbo pretty much nailed it. That line sounds like some generic shonen crap, which is honestly just as boring as the American dialogue, so it can really go both ways.

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in. Personally I'd much rather take generic shonen crap over painfully unfunny one-liners that make me want to facepalm to a degree that could risk concussion.

Yes, I'll admit, the Japanese lines certainly do sound more generic and arguably 'boring'; but in my opinion, that's also their strength, in that they sound more normal. Generic in this case works both ways; sure, the lines don't particularly stand out, but at the same time it means they're totally inoffensive.

I'd much prefer reserved, ordinary dialogue over "OH HEY GUYS I'M MAKING LAME CONTEXTUAL JOKES ABOUT BALD PEOPLE AND EGGS. EVERY. FIVE. SECONDS."

Edited by -Mark-, 04 March 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Amomynous]

Japan's idea of a good character is basically a Goku expy of some kind, while we have different standards.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.
I mean of course, Sonic is a kiddy cartoon character, one of a cute furry animal that was portrayed as an extreeeme coooool dude with tude, of course there's something silly about that, and I don't mind if Sonic Team want to poke fun at him for that, but it has to be there for them to make fun of it...

My problem with Sonic talking less is that I kind of think its robbing him of a personal trait, I mean he's a speedster, how many speedsters do you know that AREN't motor mouths? Sonic is no exception; I like to see Sonic having fun doing what he does instead of approaching every situation with the same stone faced determination.

He wasn't that​ much of a motormouth before, and generally what he said meant something, as opposed to 'talking without saying anything' plus, in Sonic Colours and Generations , he doesn't really seem to enjoy it that much any-more, he has a very "meh....nothing special." approach to his adventures recently.
In more direct response, does he really have to follow Personality Powers to absolute T?

Edited by Mysterics, 04 March 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in. Personally I'd much rather take generic shonen crap over painfully unfunny one-liners that make me want to facepalm to a degree that could risk concussion.

Yes, I'll admit, the Japanese lines certainly do sound more generic and arguably 'boring'; but in my opinion, that's also their strength, in that they sound more normal. Generic in this case works both ways; sure, the lines don't particularly stand out, but at the same time it means they're totally inoffensive.

I'd much prefer reserved, ordinary dialogue over "OH HEY GUYS I'M MAKING LAME CONTEXTUAL JOKES ABOUT BALD PEOPLE AND EGGS. EVERY. FIVE. SECONDS."

His jokes are so severely toned down in Generations that if you still hate how he acts in there, than I just think you're exaggerating. My problem with the Japanese dialogue, is that their too, normal, its like you said there's nothing interesting about them, nothing to grab onto, nothing stands out. It just makes Sonic seem like a boring everyman, when he's been shown he have a lot more personality beyond "Hero who saves the day", yeah I'll take the corny goofball over the average everyman any day of the week, even if I hate the former's personality, at least I can feel something towards them instead of just being indifferent.

And to be entirely fair, Sonic didn't spend every cutscene making lame jokes in Colors, in fact out of the 23 or so cutscenes I think about 3-4 were dedicated to those jokes, so I think people are over exaggerating how bad things are again.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.
I mean of course, Sonic is a kiddy cartoon character, one of a cute furry animal that was portrayed as an extreeeme coooool dude with tude, of course there's something silly about that, and I don't mind if Sonic Team want to poke fun at him for that, but it has to be there for them to make fun of it...

...What?

He wasn't that​ much of a motormouth before, and generally what he said meant something, as opposed to 'talking without saying anything' plus, in Sonic Colours and Generations , he doesn't really seem to enjoy it that much any-more, he has a very "meh....nothing special." approach to his adventures recently.

Yes, because lines like "No low budget flights" totally have deep meaning.

In more direct response, does he really have to follow Personality Powers to absolute T?

I don't see why he has to be the most average guy in the series? Especially if he's the main character, the guy whom we're supposed to empathize and see the view point of, I mean come on he needs some interesting traits beyond the generic hero ones.

[-Mark-]

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

Well there is a plot, otherwise Sonic & Tails would've never gone to the park in the first place, its just underplayed and doesn't take itself seriously at all. If the plot isn't taken seriously, the characters aren't going to be taken seriously.

[Reggie Fils-Aime]

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

Sonic Colors was playing it safe, due to the recent failures.

[Solly]

I don't particularly mind cliches myself. My problem with them mainly comes from how blatant they're made out to be.

If you made something that emulates off another, and yet it offers it's own unique spice to the recipe, then bravo you've made it less of a cliche. If you take something that makes it so obvious that you flat out rip-off from another series, then you clearly need to add something unique.

Eh, I probably didn't say that right, but hopefully you know what I meant.

Basically what you're saying is that there's a difference between a character who's BASED on a stereotype, and a character who IS a stereotype, right? Because I can get behind that statement.

I prefer Sonic in his most recent games, although admittedly I wouldn't mind it if he toned down the stupid lines just a smidge and acted like he gave a shit once in a while- not so much because I don't like it, but because when the characters are just acting too goofy and nonchalant about something, everything starts to feel less important in the story. Not that I want Sonic games to be 'serious' or have overbearing stories, mind you.

And it'd be nice if he did do more cool stuff in the cutscenes, so long as it wasn't taking away from something he could be doing in gameplay. But whether the scenes are filled with ACTION or just regular dialogue doesn't really have much to do with Sonic as a character as much as it does how the scenes are directed and divided up.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.

Sonic Colors was playing it safe, due to the recent failures.

Yeah we kinda have to remember that whenever a Sonic game makes its plot a big focus it doesn't end up getting received well. The plot of a Sonic game is usually a point of ridicule.

Not saying that's a reason to not have plot though. Just rationalizing.

Edited by Solly, 05 March 2012 - 12:08 AM.