18 replies to this topic

[A Spray Can in Tokyo-to]

So there's this artist. The critics used to love him. The fans used to love him. He made that work which inspired the hearts of millions. He was on top of the world.

But today... he just isn't. His fanbase is shrinking, as broken as an unfinished video game. Just hearing his name attached to a work causes dread.

This is a thread dedicated to discussion and documenting (if that makes any sense) of so-called "fallen creators". Who you considered your hero back then, but just isn't nowadays.

Keep in mind this is not a thread for taking potshots at an artist you don't like. Give only examples when it's clear that public opinion has pretty much turned against them and the public doesn't think of them as highly as before. If you don't like the artist, but general public opinion is still positive, they're not a Fallen Creator.

[Mr. Mayhem!]

Hmmm... Would M. Night Shamalyan count as a fallen creator? The description you gave for this topic actually describes him perfectly. I recall everyone loved him when he made The Sixth Sense and Unbreakable. After those movies, he went from love it or hate him, to downright hated especially when The Last Airbender was released. I haven't seen the Sixth Sense, but I loved Unbreakable... It was a neat take on the superhero genre.

I recall when I went to see Scott Pilgrim, there was a trailer for the movie Devil. I could hear the people in front commenting on how interesting the movie seemed...

But as soon as Shamalyan's name appeared, a collective groan filled the audience.

[Chili Dawg]

In all seriousness, John Kricfalusi. A very influential figure in nineties animation, no doubt, but after Ren and Stimpy got cancelled he basically devolved into a parody of himself, and is now basically a bitter old man ranting about cartoons on a blog.

Oh, and Rareware. Awesome platformers to Wii Sports knock offs? Yeah, that's a hell of a fall.

Edited by Mermaid Man, 29 March 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Nepenthe]

I think the person that comes closest to that for me is Don Bluth. I loved his work back then and still do today, but I was also amazed at his gumption to start his own studio and actually turn it into a pivotal force in the animation industry. I honestly wanted to do the same: to get my experience at Disney, then when I was ready, say fuck 'em, I'm running my own shop now, and I'm going to be better than you. I figured if he could do it, then so could I.

Then I started reading more. I learned how his resignation had basically been a firing from the company for staging a bit of a coup for work on a short that frankly isn't all that hot anyway considering the corporate gutting it got. Then I read further about his falling out with Spielberg and Lucas and the whole Dublin move, which only served to expose his crippled writing ability. His movies got worse and worse, Disney essentially curb-stomped him with The Little Mermaid, his major movies have been taken away and given the shitty sequel treatment without his creative consent or control, and now what's he doing? Half-heartedly trying to get a Dragon Age film farmed out? Some animation tutorial DVDs? It's a disgrace.

I still admire some qualities about the man. I love his rough and expressive animation and distinct character designs, I love the fact that he has a genuine love for the craft, and yeah, I'm still enamored at how he was able to forge a major studio from his garage and conquer shoestring budgets for the sake of good animated film-making. But I'm not so naive anymore; he did some pretty stupid-ass things. Honestly, the only thing that'd make me drop Spielberg is if Cameron came calling.

[VisionaryBlur]

I think the person that comes closest to that for me is Don Bluth. I loved his work back then and still do today, but I was also amazed at his gumption to start his own studio and actually turn it into a pivotal force in the animation industry. I honestly wanted to do the same: to get my experience at Disney, then when I was ready, say fuck 'em, I'm running my own shop now, and I'm going to be better than you. I figured if he could do it, then so could I.

Then I started reading more. I learned how his resignation had basically been a firing from the company for staging a bit of a coup for work on a short that frankly isn't all that hot anyway considering the corporate gutting it got. Then I read further about his falling out with Spielberg and Lucas and the whole Dublin move, which only served to expose his crippled writing ability. His movies got worse and worse, Disney essentially curb-stomped him with The Little Mermaid, his major movies have been taken away and given the shitty sequel treatment without his creative consent or control, and now what's he doing? Half-heartedly trying to get a Dragon Age film farmed out? Some animation tutorial DVDs? It's a disgrace.

I still admire some qualities about the man. I love his rough and expressive animation and distinct character designs, I love the fact that he has a genuine love for the craft, and yeah, I'm still enamored at how he was able to forge a major studio from his garage and conquer shoestring budgets for the sake of good animated film-making. But I'm not so naive anymore; he did some pretty stupid-ass things. Honestly, the only thing that'd make me drop Spielberg is if Cameron came calling.

Firing? I heard he left because he wanted to bring back life into DIsney. One could arguably say that he helped do that.

Also, dropping Spielburg doesn't sound unreasonable. There was more than just the Dublin move that could influence that (and granted, that was pretty big.) Considering the heavy limitations and restrictions Don had with American Tail and Land Before Time, I'm not surprised that he got miffed with him and Lucas.

He is a pretty poor writer though, and the way his budgets rip through many of his ideas just makes it worse. If anything, he should have looked for better writing staff, and stuck with what he's good at, excellent animation.

-------
Anyways, I'd say that goes to Robert Jordan for me. The man's books are good, and I like his characterizations. However, the ridiculous lengths he would go to write extraneous details just irked on and on to the point where he died before he could even get his final book out! I mean, come on, who dedicates a page to putting on a slipper!

[Nepenthe]

He was unhappy with the studio's output at the time, arguably culminating with the Pete's Dragon fiasco, but if I recall correctly, Disney gave him the sack when he used a group of animators in the middle of The Fox and the Hound's production to produce Banjo. It fucked the movie's schedule right up.

Also, I don't agree that dropping either of the two men was reasonable. They're two of the biggest directors ever for one thing, and they have far more storytelling experience which helped make American Tail and Land Before Time the classics that they are. Ironically he faced as many if not more creative restrictions after the Dublin move when he had to utilize focus test groups. All Dogs was slashed to utter bits, and Pebble and the Penguin was an even bigger mess, so much so that Bluth didn't even want his name on it.

As far as I'm concerned, I think his pride got in the way in terms of how he viewed his collaborations with the two. They weren't stifling his freedom; they were making sure he didn't pull a post-sequel Lucas. Heck, looking back on his work now, I think the only reason NIMH wasn't bad was because it was based on a book that catered to his storytelling strengths anyway.

Edited by Nepenthe, 29 March 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[VisionaryBlur]

He was unhappy with the studio's output at the time, arguably culminating with the Pete's Dragon fiasco, but if I recall correctly, Disney gave him the sack when he used a group of animators in the middle of The Fox and the Hound's production to produce Banjo. It fucked the movie's schedule right up.

Also, I don't agree that dropping either of the two men was reasonable. They're two of the biggest directors ever for one thing, and they have far more storytelling experience which helped make American Tail and Land Before Time the classics that they are. Ironically he faced as many if not more creative restrictions after the Dublin move when he had to utilize focus test groups. All Dogs was slashed to utter bits, and Pebble and the Penguin was an even bigger mess, so much so that Bluth didn't even want his name on it.

As far as I'm concerned, I think his pride got in the way in terms of how he viewed his collaborations with the two. They weren't stifling his freedom; they were making sure he didn't pull a post-sequel Lucas. Heck, looking back on his work now, I think the only reason NIMH wasn't bad was because it was based on a book that catered to his storytelling strengths anyway.

No, actually you've got that mixed up. Fox and The Hound wasn't messed up until they actually left the studio to finish work on Banjo.

Steven Spieburg's experience didn't seem to help the sequel all that much. Also, I don't get your comment there. Bluth had already moved to Dublin by the time AT was finished, and LBT was being made.

Also, ADGTH wasn't that bad off compared to the 20 minutes of animation ripped away from LBT and destroyed.

I'd say, they weren't stifling his freedom, as much as they were ignoring him and most of the project. Spielburg was working on Last Crusade at the time, and barely gave enough time to even dedicate to LBT or AT. Lucas was... obsessed with a duck, and dealing with the Japanese.

Edited by VisionaryBlur, 29 March 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[Nepenthe]

I thought that's what I said: They left the studio which messed the film's schedule up. However, I never said that he moved to Dublin after these films, so I'm not sure where you're getting that assumption? o.o;;

Also, All Dogs was pretty bad off in terms of amount of footage destroyed. It may not have been as bad as LBT, but it did significantly tone down some of the most important story points in the entire film, that being Charlie's death and his trip to Hell. But my ultimate point in highlighting this film was to call to attention an irony that one of the features Don had total oversight over faired no better in terms of the amount of creative restrictions he had to deal with from other parties.

And you did say that the two were stifling his freedom which miffed him in your last paragraph which would surely contradict the idea that they were ignoring them, an idea I disagree with completely. Spielberg and Lucas had plenty of time to offer notable oversight over AT and LBT's stories and creative decisions despite their busy schedules. Lucas I believe was partly responsible for some of the cuts to the latter anyway.

[VisionaryBlur]

I thought that's what I said: They left the studio which messed the film's schedule up. However, I never said that he moved to Dublin after these films, so I'm not sure where you're getting that assumption? o.o;;

Also, All Dogs was pretty bad off in terms of amount of footage destroyed. It may not have been as bad as LBT, but it did significantly tone down some of the most important story points in the entire film, that being Charlie's death and his trip to Hell. But my ultimate point in highlighting this film was to call to attention an irony that one of the features Don had total oversight over faired no better in terms of the amount of creative restrictions he had to deal with from other parties.

And you did say that the two were stifling his freedom which miffed him in your last paragraph which would surely contradict the idea that they were ignoring them, an idea I disagree with completely. Spielberg and Lucas had plenty of time to offer notable oversight over AT and LBT's stories and creative decisions despite their busy schedules. Lucas I believe was partly responsible for some of the cuts to the latter anyway.

No wait, now I'm getting confused. I thought you said that he was fired for involving his animators in the project, and that the involvement messed Fox and the Hound up. As for the Dublin thing, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You said that he had more restrictions when he moved to Dublin, which was at the time of AT and LBT, but you've been saying he wasn't being restricted.

But, Bluth still has the masters to ADGTH, so I'd say it's better off than LBT was. Not to mention, the trip to hell was only a few minutes of animation, and again, the masters weren't destroyed.

Oh no, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. When I said restrictions, I was referring to the corporate suits, not Spielburg and Lucas. Also, where did you find out that bit about Lucas? I was pretty sure it was executive meddling from suits. Either way though, 20 minutes of animation is a lot to take from an animator.

[Nepenthe]

Indeed, that's what I said; I'm just confused at how that significantly differs from "the film was messed up after the left the studio to finish Banjo." In regards to Dublin, I said he faced "as many if not more creative restrictions...when he had to utilize focus test groups," in other words, that he hadn't found significantly more freedom away from other parties involving input in his films even after Spielberg and Lucas left.

And I reiterate, my point is not to say that ADGTH exceeds LBT in terms of amount of footage lost. The fact that notable amounts of footage were lost at all is my point.

Also, here's my source. A quote for convenience:

Spielberg and Lucas insisted on the cutting of around 10 minutes of footage from the final film. ANIMATION magazine reported that "One of the principal sections that was cut was the Tyrannosaurus Rex attack sequence. Steven Spielberg and George Lucas apparently felt that it was too frightening and could even cause some psychological damage in very young children."

Also, want to continue this via PM? Such a massive derail. xP

[Gabe]

Oh, and Rareware. Awesome platformers to Wii Sports knock offs? Yeah, that's a hell of a fall.

+1

And for a time up until 2010 with Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors, you could argue that Sonic Team was this as well.

[-Mark-]

Oh god, yeah, Rare definitely.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say that their fall from grace was as recent as the Kinect Sports rubbish; Banjo-Tooie just didn't seem as good as the original, and then we got Nuts & Bolts.

I actually can't think of many other creators that fall under that category for me personally, but then I don't follow a whole lot of things.

[Tornado]

But as soon as Shamalyan's name appeared, a collective groan filled the audience.

Groans? I was at the theater for The Expendables, and when his name came up in the trailer for the movie people started laughing. It was a sight to behold.

[Johnny Boy]

Does Eddie Murphy count? This guy was one of my favorite actors of all time. He's starred in classics like Coming to America, Mulan, The Nutty Professor, and Beverly Hills Cop.

But the 2000's haven't been to kind to him. Other than the Shrek series and Dreamgirls (the latter earning him an Oscar nomination for best supporting actor), he's starred in a number of critical and financial flops such as Norbit, Meet Dave, and the notorious Pluto Nash.

Sadly the 2010's aren't looking so good for him either. His most recent film, A Thousand Words, flopped miserably at the box office and is one of the most worst reviewed films of all time with a solid 0% on Rotten Tomatoes. Oh Eddie where did you go wrong?

And also there's Joel Shumacher. Poor guy is likely to be forever remembered as the guy who directed Batman and Robin. Even after he apologized for it.

[Tornado]

I thought Tower Heist was pretty good...

[A Spray Can in Tokyo-to]

And also there's Joel Shumacher. Poor guy is likely to be forever remembered as the guy who directed Batman and Robin. Even after he apologized for it.

Funny thing is; it wasn't even his fault! Schumacher loves comics, and just didn't want his movie to be a 100-minute toy commercial. IIRC he wanted to do an adaptation of Frank Miller's Batman: Year One before lolexecutives.

[Tornado]

Funny thing is; it wasn't even his fault! Schumacher loves comics, and just didn't want his movie to be a 100-minute toy commercial. IIRC he wanted to do an adaptation of Frank Miller's Batman: Year One before lolexecutives.

It mostly wasn't his fault. A lot of it was the constant demands of the film's producers that basically sunk the entire thing before it even started shooting. Plus he made Phone Booth several years later and I fucking love that movie.



Some things, though:



Were.

Edited by Tornado, 29 March 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Johnny Boy]

Some things, though:



Were.

Don't forget about the bat credit card.

[Captain Harlock]

To be honest if I were in his position of directing a crashed film because lolexecutives I'd also have fun with idiocy like that.