565 replies to this topic

[Burnt Ash]

Wait, now that I think of it, isn't this the third Death Egg? The first one would be from Sonic 2/3, and the second would be from Battle, and the third would be in Sonic 4....

[Barry the Nomad]

Battle takes place after 4, so the Death Egg in Battle is the third one.

Did I blow your mind?

[743-E.D. Missile]

Wait, now that I think of it, isn't this the third Death Egg? The first one would be from Sonic 2/3, and the second would be from Battle, and the third would be in Sonic 4....

By that logic, it would be the 2nd Death Egg in continuity terms, since Battle occurs after SA2.

[Burnt Ash]

Oh yeah, my bad. I was thinking in terms of the release date rather than the games' timeline.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Umm, when the FUCK did I ever say that? At all!?

When you were claiming Episode II wasn't a rehash.

Horseshit, Sonic teaming up with Tails is a weak ass reason to play the rehash card

So the fact that he's hyped up as a "return" and the fact that he plays the exact same role he did in Sonic 2, doesn't scream odd to you?

,

and re-using the Death Egg for the first time in goddamn years is also a not fair reason.

When it plays the exact same role it did in Sonic 2, yes it is. If this was another game, then I wouldn't be calling foul, but its being used as the exact same plot device in a game that's supposed to be succeeding Sonic 2, and you don't find a problem with this? Its supposed to be a new saga yet its awfully similar to the saga before it. But its not a rehash right?

And Little Planet's significance is barely a factory in Episode II so no, it's barely like CD, only re-using some themes.

No, but Metal Sonic's role in it is enough of a parallel.

I guess I won't waste my time since you're just going to dismiss everything I say like that then.

Or maybe your argument is weak because it sounds like you're in denial, all you've done is just tell me I'm wrong, but not without any real reasoning. Tell me, in what way is Sonic 4 not a retreading of the Death Egg Saga despite supposedly being another story arc entirely, give an adequate reason and I might reconsider.

The crux of your argument is that the Classics are better than Sonic 4 then?

No, its that this "sequel" isn't really a sequel and more of Dimps' version of the Classic games, and if it is a sequel its a poorly designed one.

[MarcelloF]

So the fact that he's hyped up as a "return" and the fact that he plays the exact same role he did in Sonic 2, doesn't scream odd to you?

You mean the role he has in every single game? No, Idon't find that odd at all, especially since he's much more involved this time around.

When it plays the exact same role it did in Sonic 2, yes it is. If this was another game, then I wouldn't be calling foul, but its being used as the exact same plot device in a game that's supposed to be succeeding Sonic 2, and you don't find a problem with this? Its supposed to be a new saga yet its awfully similar to the saga before it. But its not a rehash right?

What other role than "Giant Space Station/Weapon" can it have? That's the whole point of the Death Egg.

The fact that Eggman is turning Little Planet into the Death Egg changes it enough. And we don't even know what will happen with it in Episode 3, yet.

And if you compare it, it would have to be with Sonic 3, since it's being built here.

No, but Metal Sonic's role in it is enough of a parallel.

It's not.

Or maybe your argument is weak because it sounds like you're in denial, all you've done is just tell me I'm wrong, but not without any real reasoning. Tell me, in what way is Sonic 4 not a retreading of the Death Egg Saga despite supposedly being another story arc entirely, give an adequate reason and I might reconsider.

I don't remember Eggman returning to Little Planet to revive Metal Sonic, giving Metal Sonic ancient powers, Eggman turning Little Planet into the Death Egg in the Classics.

Edited by MarcelloF, 28 April 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Stocking Anarchy]

I'm interested in how Episode 3's story will play out. Being able to play as Knuckles again can only be a good thing.

[JezMM]

I get so fucking sick of the rehash rehash rehash b'aaaawing with the zones. What kind of wacky over the top genres do you want? I think the fact that we got different aesthetics and a hell of a lot of love put into the envioronments is enough. The classic games were full of "rehashes"! I'll work backwards:

Splash Hill <- Emerald Hill <- Palmtree Panic <- Green Hill
Casino Street <- Carnival Night <- Casino Night
Lost Labyrinth <- Hydrocity <- Tidal Tempest <- Labyrinth
Mad Gear <- Metropolis <- Metallic Madness <- Scrap Brain
Sylvania Castle <- Marble Garden <- Aquatic Ruin
White Park (This is the only one people don't complain about).
Oil Desert (Honestly I'm not going to justify this one either because the only thing it has in common with Oil Ocean is the oil slides on a single act).
Sky Fortress <- Flying Battery <- Wing Fortress (Act 1 was a direct rehash of Sky Chase but they 100% completely built upon it like a sequel should).

Yes, all these stages have many little differences to set them apart from their previous ones but so do the Sonic 4 stages.

Splash Hill has it's swing ropes, pulleys, and the much more elevated high up aesthetic, as well as the sunset.
Casino Street has the cards gimmick and concentrated cannon puzzles.
Lost Labyrinth has the rolling rocks, torch puzzles, minecarts, and water chambers (though I can admit that last one was stupid).
Mad Gear has it's gear gameplay, twisty platforms, and oncoming wall of death segments.
Sylvania Castle has the flippy spring platforms, homing attack floating platforms, water running segments, and the sunrise/moonlit aesthetics.
White Park is again, seldom complained about in terms of freshness.
Oil Desert has it's sinky sand running, rising sand towers, sandstorm winds, slick oil-clad platforms, and the polluted/cleaned up background aesthetics..
Sky Fortress Act 1 has the high speed sections, Metal Sonic survival section and the enforced Tornado-less section.
Sky Fortress Acts 2 and 3 have the wall running sections, emphasised thruster avoiding sections and the lovely sunset aesthetic.


And finally, while I can't defend Episode 1 in this sense, here is all the stuff from the stages Episode 2 is supposedly rehashing that wasn't there.

Aquatic Ruin/Sylvania Castle: Arrow shooting as a frequent "chasing" threat, swinging platforms, falling columns, FUCKING GROUNDERS COMING OUT THE FUCKING WALLS EVERY 5 FUCKING SECONDS.
Oil Ocean/Oil Desert: Those fire-propelled shooty platforms and shooty... shooters, elevators, blowy fans, sinky oil, push springs, sliding back and forth spike thingers.
Wing Fortress/Sky Fortress: Flying out and grabbing off parts of the ship as they tear off, propellor blade hazards, really goddamn confusing navigation which requires you to run through walls, cheap flicky shooty floor things that propell you into god knows where, appearing/disappearing platforms, and vertical "conveyor belts" of platforms to jump up/down.



TL;DR: Sonic 4 Episode 2's amount of rehash is nowhere near the level justified for the amount of panties that have gotten bunched about it.

Edited by JezMM, 28 April 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[MarcelloF]

I still don't see how Oil Desert is considered an Oil Ocean rehash, to be honest. Looks completely different to me.

And the one video I watched of part of Sky Fortress, it looked more like a space ship than Wing Fortress. Looked like a mix out of Wing Fortress and EGG Rocket. Though, I should see the whole thing before really judging it.

[Blue Blood]

To say Sky Fortress isn't a rehash is simply laughable. It's aesthetically identical to Wing Fortress, uses the same enemies, many of the same gimmicks and even the same story purpose. If you want to say it isn't a rehash, well you've got to to say that none of the E1 stages are rehashes cause it's about as different to the originals as any of them. Games from 1 through to 3K did share tropes, but the also tended to be far more distinct from each other than the similar tropes in S4 (with Oil Desert and White Park being exceptions, and Sylvania Castle being a re-imagined Aquatic Ruin). CD was intentionally supposed to be like S1, while other stages like Emerald Hill and Canrival Night were of the same trope with completely different execution.

Compare the flying fortress stages- Sky Chase/Wing Fortress > Flying Battery > Sky Fortress. One of these stands out quite a lot from the others with different gimmicks, different badniks and wholly unique aesthetics. Can you guess which one?

I don''t get why SF is even so similar to WF. They clearly got the rehash issue with SC, which was unique enough to identify as different to AR. And they even poked fun at it with the boss.

Edited by Blue Blood, 28 April 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Scar]

To say Sky Fortress isn't a rehash is simply laughable. It's aesthetically identical to Wing Fortress, uses the same enemies, many of the same gimmicks and even the same story purpose. If you want to say it isn't a rehash, well you've got to to say that none of the E1 stages are rehashes cause it's about as different to the originals as any of them. Games from 1 through to 3K did share tropes, but the also tended to be far more distinct from each other than the similar tropes in S4 (with Oil Desert and White Park being exceptions, and Sylvania Castle being a re-imagined Aquatic Ruin). CD was intentionally supposed to be like S1, while other stages like Emerald Hill and Canrival Night were of the same trope with completely different execution.

Compare the flying fortress stages- Sky Chase/Wing Fortress > Flying Battery > Sky Fortress. One of these stands out quite a lot from the others with different gimmicks, different badniks and wholly unique aesthetics. Can you guess which one?

I don''t get why SF is even so similar to WF. They clearly got the rehash issue with SC, which was unique enough to identify as different to AR. And they even poked fun at it with the boss.

Well, one thing Sky Fortress has overWing Fortress is its Music (that is Act 2 and 3), which I find to be a whole lot more enjoyable than Wing Fortress' theme.

EDIT: It is a rehash though. But the level design is more interesting for me. Act 3's bullshit pit aside, there is some nice design in there if you ask me.

Edited by Scar, 28 April 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Gabe]

I'm interested in how Episode 3's story will play out. Being able to play as Knuckles again can only be a good thing.

No offense, but I would personally disagree
I'm anticipating Knux will be nothing more than a helping tree
Rendered down to a garden tool used to bust through cracks
Within walls Sonic couldn't spam through with Homing Attacks
Or dig up hidden amounts of buried treasures
Or climb up walls of certain measures
I'm not expecting much good for Knux in Epi. III
But hey-I guess we'll have to just wait and see

Edited by Kazaam, 28 April 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[JezMM]

To say Sky Fortress isn't a rehash is simply laughable. It's aesthetically identical to Wing Fortress, uses the same enemies, many of the same gimmicks and even the same story purpose. If you want to say it isn't a rehash, well you've got to to say that none of the E1 stages are rehashes cause it's about as different to the originals as any of them. Games from 1 through to 3K did share tropes, but the also tended to be far more distinct from each other than the similar tropes in S4 (with Oil Desert and White Park being exceptions, and Sylvania Castle being a re-imagined Aquatic Ruin). CD was intentionally supposed to be like S1, while other stages like Emerald Hill and Canrival Night were of the same trope with completely different execution.

Compare the flying fortress stages- Sky Chase/Wing Fortress > Flying Battery > Sky Fortress. One of these stands out quite a lot from the others with different gimmicks, different badniks and wholly unique aesthetics. Can you guess which one?

I don''t get why SF is even so similar to WF. They clearly got the rehash issue with SC, which was unique enough to identify as different to AR. And they even poked fun at it with the boss.

I dunno, aside from simply reposting my list of things that were unique to Sky Fortress or "missing" when directly compared to Wing Fortress, the main difference would be that Wing Fortress was a very "flat" stage. Sky Fortress is a lot more twisting and sprawling. It feels far more like S&K Death Egg Act 1 in style.

As said I don't feel THAT obliged to call Episode 1 100% rehash. I know with Episode 1's levels it was specifically intended to be a rehash, but thanks to the new things I don't think they play like a rehashes, in the same way that say, Classic Green Hill would have been a rehash in a non-celebratory game.

Edited by JezMM, 28 April 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[Indigo Rush]

I get so fucking sick of the rehash rehash rehash b'aaaawing with the zones. What kind of wacky over the top genres do you want? I think the fact that we got different aesthetics and a hell of a lot of love put into the envioronments is enough. The classic games were full of "rehashes"! I'll work backwards:

Splash Hill <- Emerald Hill <- Palmtree Panic <- Green Hill
Casino Street <- Carnival Night <- Casino Night
Lost Labyrinth <- Hydrocity <- Tidal Tempest <- Labyrinth
Mad Gear <- Metropolis <- Metallic Madness <- Scrap Brain
Sylvania Castle <- Marble Garden <- Aquatic Ruin
White Park (This is the only one people don't complain about).
Oil Desert (Honestly I'm not going to justify this one either because the only thing it has in common with Oil Ocean is the oil slides on a single act).
Sky Fortress <- Flying Battery <- Wing Fortress (Act 1 was a direct rehash of Sky Chase but they 100% completely built upon it like a sequel should).

Yes, all these stages have many little differences to set them apart from their previous ones but so do the Sonic 4 stages.

Splash Hill has it's swing ropes, pulleys, and the much more elevated high up aesthetic, as well as the sunset.
Casino Street has the cards gimmick and concentrated cannon puzzles.
Lost Labyrinth has the rolling rocks, torch puzzles, minecarts, and water chambers (though I can admit that last one was stupid).
Mad Gear has it's gear gameplay, twisty platforms, and oncoming wall of death segments.
Sylvania Castle has the flippy spring platforms, homing attack floating platforms, water running segments, and the sunrise/moonlit aesthetics.
White Park is again, seldom complained about in terms of freshness.
Oil Desert has it's sinky sand running, rising sand towers, sandstorm winds, slick oil-clad platforms, and the polluted/cleaned up background aesthetics..
Sky Fortress Act 1 has the high speed sections, Metal Sonic survival section and the enforced Tornado-less section.
Sky Fortress Acts 2 and 3 have the wall running sections, emphasised thruster avoiding sections and the lovely sunset aesthetic.


And finally, while I can't defend Episode 1 in this sense, here is all the stuff from the stages Episode 2 is supposedly rehashing that wasn't there.

Aquatic Ruin/Sylvania Castle: Arrow shooting as a frequent "chasing" threat, swinging platforms, falling columns, FUCKING GROUNDERS COMING OUT THE FUCKING WALLS EVERY 5 FUCKING SECONDS.
Oil Ocean/Oil Desert: Those fire-propelled shooty platforms and shooty... shooters, elevators, blowy fans, sinky oil, push springs, sliding back and forth spike thingers.
Wing Fortress/Sky Fortress: Flying out and grabbing off parts of the ship as they tear off, propellor blade hazards, really goddamn confusing navigation which requires you to run through walls, cheap flicky shooty floor things that propell you into god knows where, appearing/disappearing platforms, and vertical "conveyor belts" of platforms to jump up/down.



TL;DR: Sonic 4 Episode 2's amount of rehash is nowhere near the level justified for the amount of panties that have gotten bunched about it.

Thank you.

THANK YOU.

I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH.

The callbacks are deliberate, yes, but they make enough of an effort to stand out.

Edited by Indigo Rush, 28 April 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Metal Gear -Bender-]

I dunno, aside from simply reposting my list of things that were unique to Sky Fortress or "missing" when directly compared to Wing Fortress, the main difference would be that Wing Fortress was a very "flat" stage. Sky Fortress is a lot more twisting and sprawling. It feels far more like S&K Death Egg Act 1 in style.

As said I don't feel THAT obliged to call Episode 1 100% rehash. I know with Episode 1's levels it was specifically intended to be a rehash, but thanks to the new things I don't think they play like a rehashes, in the same way that say, Classic Green Hill would have been a rehash in a non-celebratory game.

Most of the elements of Episode 1's levels (badniks and level design) was a rehash, but not everything. The thing that really shouted rehash was the bosses in Ep1 which were not original. I mean okay the bosses were extended with some slight new moves but they were still blatant rehashes. It really pissed me off when I first ever played Ep1 looking forward to the bosses, only to be crushingly disappointed. I look foward to playing the bosses in Ep2 which appear to be far more original.

Ps: I have just played Ep1 all the way through from scratch (I must enjoy being tortured) and I finally achieved the 'Untouchable' PSN trophy achievement. That's the one where you have to complete EGG Station without being hit. My god that achievement drove me mad. Is it feasible that you can destroy the final boss in Ep2 without taking any damage?

In Ep2 what is the reason as to why Sonic has to collect the emeralds all over again as he had collected all the emeralds by the end of episode 1. Or is this not explained in the start of episode 2?

I also achieved the first 6 emeralds with my first attempt, it then took me five attempts to achieve the seventh emerald. I must have had some kind of mental block.

Edited by MilesKnightwing, 28 April 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[JezMM]

Ps: I have just played Ep1 all the way through from scratch (I must enjoy being tortured) and I finally achieved the 'Untouchable' PSN trophy achievement. That's the one where you have to complete EGG Station without being hit. My god that achievement drove me mad. Is it feasible that you can destroy the final boss in Ep2 without taking any damage?

You'll have to at some point. The final boss REQUIRES combo actions to beat, meaning to beat him as Super Sonic for a new achievement, you'll have to play up to the very end without Super Sonic while holding onto 50+ rings so you can transform at the last second (after opening him up with a tag team action) to finish the job. Luckily there is a hidden shield monitor before the boss so they give you ONE hit.

In Ep2 what is the reason as to why Sonic has to collect the emeralds all over again as he had collected all the emeralds by the end of episode 1. Or is this not explained in the start of episode 2?

No explaination given. But, seeing as they had no bearing on the plot at all in Ep 1 (who knows if they will in this supposed extra ending the final ep2 game will have), we can probably consider the Ep 1 emerald collecting non-canon.

Edited by JezMM, 28 April 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Blue Blood]

To those who have played it, what would you rate this game out of 10, and what would you rate E1? I knows there's far better ways of rating a game, but for the sake of simplicity and comparing two similar titles number are the best way to go.

Edited by Blue Blood, 29 April 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[Discoid]

Sonic 4: Episode 1 - None/10
Generic Dimps Game With Shitty Physics: Episode 1 - 3/10. It's got awful level design, awful physics, nonexistent story, and it's a barren wasteland when it comes to creativity.

Sonic 4: Episode 2 - 1/10. I like some of the ideas they've got (though some of the execution could stand to be better); like the designs of the enemies and bosses, Sky Fortress' boss from a conceptual standpoint, and some of the level tropes are genuinely neat. Still not what it should be though, nor is it even close.
Generic Dimps Game With Decent Physics: Episode 2 - 5/10. All I'm seeing is mediocrity no matter where I look (though I'll admit the visuals are the single exception). Music, gameplay, story, etc.

Edited by Dissident, 29 April 2012 - 03:15 AM.

[Blue Blood]

Sonic 4: Episode 1 - None/10
Generic Dimps Game With Shitty Physics: Episode 1 - 3/10. It's got awful level design, awful physics, nonexistent story, and it's a barren wasteland when it comes to creativity.

Agreed

Sonic 4: Episode 2 - None/10
Generic Dimps Game With Decent Physics: Episode 2 - 5/10. All I'm seeing is mediocrity no matter where I look (though I'll admit the visuals are the single exception). Music, gameplay, story, etc.

Almost agreed. I can't deny that E2 has some creativity more deserving of the title Sonic 4 to be honest, and the visuals while pretty still feel kind of cheap (you'll notice lots of paper looking objects in the backgrounds that aren't anywhere near as bad as Splash Hill).

Otherwise yeah, I'd 5/10 is is right score overall is I try to pretend it's not Sonic 4.

Edited by Blue Blood, 29 April 2012 - 02:57 AM.

[Indigo Rush]

Episode I - I'd say it's a 6/10. Pretty mediocre, but far from terrible.

Episode II - Definitely at least a 7/10. A solid improvement on many areas, but still not as good as the Classics.