116 replies to this topic

[Emmett L. Brown]

Funny enough, in that same topic this is also one of the examples where I said that law shouldn't/doesn't apply, ain't it?

You're right there, CSS. Unfortunately, that specific law was cited as the reason the police didn't investigate Zimmerman.

Anyway, I'm glad the authorities got their shit together and decided to do their job, and I still hope the Stand Your Ground law is revoked entirely.

Edited by Grumpy Old Guy, 12 April 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[SpikySprinter]

Well, did Trayvon attack Zimmerman to the point where he had to fight back and shoot him? Well, he definitely fought him, but there just isn't enough evidence to support or frown upon Zimmerman's drastic actions.

It might sound like I'm defending Zimmerman, but I'm really not. Anyone with a brain can see that this man followed Trayvon because Trayvon was black. There is definitely a racial element to this. I acknowledge that none of this would have happened had it not been for this paranoid racism on Zimmerman's part.

However, we need to ask why Trayvon attacked him. Did he feel threatened? If I were Trayvon and I felt threatened by this guy, I would either run away or STAND MY GROUND and fight him. Then again, Zimmerman had every right to protect himself when he was being attacked, even if he provoked it. Stand Your Ground makes perfect sense to me. It's not up to the government to decide if you have the right to protect yourself in the heat of the moment.

I can tell you that banning concealed carry is not the answer. It may sound nice, but the fact is that more people get killed in supposedly "gun-free" zones than in places where firearms are legal. Banning guns is like banning alcohol; it doesn't fucking work.

Edited by SpikySprinter, 12 April 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Nepenthe]

Of course Trayvon felt threatened. He called his girlfriend with suspicions of being followed. He ran away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman pursued him on foot which can be heard in one of his calls. Trayvon was also caught on someone else's 911 call screaming for help before being blown away.

Stand your ground ceases to be a defense when you start an altercation but start getting your ass kicked because you picked the wrong fight (arguably Zimmerman wasn't getting his ass kicked anyway; you can see how he looks in the police station video the night he was brought in for questioning). Trayvon should've been fighting him off. He should have punched him. Zimmerman threatened his life, and it is obvious in the fact that this child is dead.

[SpikySprinter]

I was not aware that we had wind of who started the altercation. If Trayvon Martin was defending himself, then Stand Your Ground works in his favor. I find it baffling that people are condemning Stand Your Ground as a whole when the real fault is who it was initially applied to.

[Nepenthe]

There are parts of the Stand Your Ground law that can allow you to claim self-defense- even in situations where it wouldn't apply- and get off with absolutely no legal ramifications whatsoever even if you happen to kill someone, hence why they're sometimes deemed "shoot first, ask questions later" laws. This is why Zimmerman was let go. It is that very law that would have allowed him to get away scot-free had this not blown up into a media firestorm.

[SpikySprinter]

But imagine how many people have been thrown in prison because they protected theirselves in a legitimate situation. If I were getting mugged on the street, I'd be glad to have a law in place to keep me from going to jail for protecting myself.

[Nepenthe]

There are already self-defense laws on the books to largely keep that from happening in the first place, so Stand Your Ground isn't new shit or arguably even necessary. You know how many more people have been spared from jail time beforehand in cases of self-defense?

[VEDJ-F]

Seeing the BBC coverage of it. They're not really clear on the situation themselves.

[Emmett L. Brown]

But imagine how many people have been thrown in prison because they protected theirselves in a legitimate situation. If I were getting mugged on the street, I'd be glad to have a law in place to keep me from going to jail for protecting myself.

Quick question, SpikySprinter, you fun-loving conservative, you. Would you say that mugging should be a death penalty-worthy crime? How about burglary? Harassment? Petty theft? Looking threatening while trespassing? Being a black teenager in a hoodie, walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighbourhood, threatening a creepy white guy stalking you?

Me, I'd much rather leave that question up to the legal system (minus that law you're so fond of) rather than the everyman.

Edited by Grumpy Old Guy, 12 April 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[SpikySprinter]

Deserve has nothing to do with it. If you're being attacked, you have the right to stop the aggressor by any means necessary, regardless of what it takes to do so.

And I'm not a conservative. Stop it.

When it comes to "deserve," I'm actually on the Liberal side.

Edited by SpikySprinter, 12 April 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[Nepenthe]

Do you deserve the right to "do whatever it takes", e.g. kill someone, when you yourself start the fight but soon discover that people have a tendency to fight back?

[SpikySprinter]

Read my previous posts. I already answered that question.
By your logic, Trayvon would've been thrown in jail for defending himself.

Edited by SpikySprinter, 12 April 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Nepenthe]

None of your posts actually answer this question because you make no differentiation between a fight that turns tides. If Zimmerman initiated the altercation but Trayvon fought back, does Zimmerman then have the right to shoot him under Stand Your Ground which allows you to do this if you believe your life is in danger?

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanna answer anyway.

Would you say that mugging should be a death penalty-worthy crime?

Not really, unless the guy has that intent to kill me. But usually, mugging in this case only requires the victim to fight the guy off and get the hell out of there. Killing him could practically be excessive force.

How about burglary?

If the guy's in my house, I'm shooting the guy right then and there. I'll give him one warning to put everything down and leave before I open fire tho, otherwise I'd probably be charged with murder...I think.

Harassment? Petty theft? Looking threatening while trespassing? Being a black teenager in a hoodie, walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighbourhood, threatening a creepy white guy stalking you?

Now having any of these be a death-worthy crime is just sick. It's practically Jim Crow all over again, if not worse.

[SpikySprinter]

Stand Your Ground doesn't override assault

[Joshua]

The original drafters of Florida's Stand Your Ground law have publicly claimed that Zimmerman lost his SYG defense the second he ignored the 911 operator that told him to not confront Trayvon.

Edited by Modern Tom, 12 April 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[SpikySprinter]

There you go. If anything, this case SUPPORTS Stand Your Ground because Trayvon would have been protected by it had he managed to kill Zimmerman.

[Nepenthe]

By your logic, Trayvon would've been thrown in jail for defending himself.

The fuck are you talking about?

In other news, here is the court affidavit. A pretty decent summation of events any following this case probably figured out by now, except the whole racial epithet thing; the prosecution's going with "punks."

Edited by Nepenthe, 12 April 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[SpikySprinter]

Let's say Trayvon Martin survived the attack, and wound up killing Zimmerman to protect himself. Without Stand Your Ground, he would've been locked in a cage for quite some time. Now calm down and quit letting me get on your nerves.

[Nepenthe]

You assumed I had a specific opinion on how SYG would've applied in a scenario where Trayvon managed to kill Zimmerman, and that the logic of said opinion would lead me to believe Trayvon deserved jail time, even though nothing I've said in this topic supports such a ludicrous outcome. When you assume positions I don't even have out of nowhere, I get annoyed and frankly have a right to, hence why I asked what the fuck you were talking about.

I was asking you that question to understand how you viewed SYG laws so we could continue a discussion in that regard, because I honestly had no idea where you were coming from. And once again, there are other self-defense laws in place in Florida. Plenty of people have been spared jail time in Florida and around the entire country because of other laws put in place. Self-defense isn't some novel fucking concept in the judicial system of the United States of America.