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A conceptual extention of the Homing Attack


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#1 The Cheese

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 04:11 AM

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This spawned from an argument I had some months ago, and I figured I'd get it off my chest for the moment. There's a lot of preconceptions surrounding the HA - some will view it as a necessary evil to compensate for the way speed and slippery handling innate to the way traditional Sonic mechanics work in 3D, others will see it as a level design crutch that encourages automation and borderline binary gameplay. I'm not necessarily here to address any of that. I'm really more doing this for the sake of finding perhaps the best case scenario I can find should it ever be developed apon in its current state. Some of you might not agree - and if you don't, that's good, because I wouldn't be posting this if I couldn't get a discussion or a second perspective out of it.

I really have problems making a topic that isn't some kind of checklist, I'm afraid, so you'll have to just bear with me and catch on as you go.

Homing Attack usable everywhere - even on the ground

The most important thing to get out of the way first is to determine the basic rules of how the HA is to work. Now, I get that there are some exceptions to the rule here and there, but I've always firmly maintained the belief that Sonic should really need only two buttons at any given time - one for jumping, and one for kicking ass. If you were to take that completely to heart, what you'd essentially have to do is to turn the HA into a proverbial swiss-army knife, and integrate a large amount of functionality into the move until you're roughly at the same level of versatility as the original rolling/spindashing mechanics. While I'll get into the specifics a bit later, this essentially means making it an all-purpose move that can in some way fulfill many of the same purposes as the Boost, rolling and sliding, light dash. wall jumping and depending on the level design, even cornering and stomping. It need not steal that much functionality if there's still some appeal in using some of those moves seperately though, because if anything it might end up making Sonic too dependant on the level design to move about - something that most of the HA chains we have today are pretty symptomatic of.

A Homing Attack need not be a straight line

Most of the common complaints about the HA in some way revolve loosely around the trajectories he takes - namely his tendency to ascend straight up into the air afterwards and float there for no good reason, creating a forced stop-go pacing that never feels as fast or fluid as simply jumping on things (this much is extremely evident in S4ep1, where it's actually faster to do so in the offchance that you're not uncurled). One way to fix this would simply be to create a trajectory effect with the HA in place of the omnipotent and generic "shoot towards things directly at high velocity and never ever miss" way of doing things. A less verbose way of putting that would simply be to say that a HA would be more or less a mechanic that guides the arcs of your standard jumps to your HA target for you - maybe with some kind of velocity boost, if necessary. This makes a bit more sense if you've played Prototype 2 and seen how the Claws work when leaping long distance.



Obviously once you've accomplished that, then you simply make Sonic's exit velocity a product of the speed and direction he attacked with, to allow fluid bouncing (with some exceptions, which again I'll cover later). This even helps create a balancing factor to the HA in that it's mostly dependant on the velocity you had prior to executing it - which means attacking skyward enemies won't be an option until you can get above or level with them, as one example of a potential drawback to the player.

Everything is a Homing Attack target. EVERYTHING.

Well okay, not quite everything. But all the same, the HA as it works right now only works on a select group of objects - namely enemies and springs of whatever definition. But it needs to be more than that. Before I go any further with this, let's just put a little context out first.



Don't lie now - every single fucking one of you has, at some point, wished "gee wiz, I I wish I could play "Sonic CD's FMV's - the game"... that would be fucking awesome!", and the thing is, you could actually do that in a Sonic game simply by tying it into the HA. By turning a bunch of otherwise innocent-looking terrain features into HA targets and completely changing the way Sonic behaves around them on impact, you're essentially making the HA double as a parkour button. Shoot towards one object, vault across it, shoot towards another, repeat as necessary. Honestly, the closest comparison I can make is how walljumping worked in SA1/06, but even then it'd be pretty different based on the fact that you can choose exactly which point you want to vault over to next, and the animations would vary depending on what you're HAing to rather than a generic walljump between two flat surfaces. Imagine every point-to-point jump as a HA from the 0:30 mark onwards in the above video and you'll kinda get the picture. Incidentally, this is a part of my next point as well.

Exit velocity can be influenced by your target

So class, quick pop quiz! What did we learn from every game from Heroes to '06 in regards to how enemies handled the HA?

"That attacking the same enemy over and over with one attack is boring and repetitive as hell and that enemies with healthbars just aren't worth it in a game with only one viable attack most of the time?"

Yup, pretty much that! Gold stars all around! That said, it's not difficult to see why health bars only existed at nighttime come Unleashed, and simply disappeared outright after that. Unfortunately, it has the subtle side effect of making all the enemies feel exactly the same, because the tactics for dealing with them couldn't be changed as a result beyond giving them projectiles. They can't be changed, really, because with the way Sonic typically works in 3D he moves too fast and erractically for most kinds of attack or AI to even register, let alone work. While I'm willing to let you guys debate among yourselves how to make the enemies themselves threatening, there is at least one thing I want to put out there that can at least make them feel different in the passing moments that you encounter them, and that is simply to change the way they effect Sonic after he's already hit them.

Many of you have already brought up the "enemies = Spagonia balloons" comparison before, and yes, that's a fucking good idea because it actually preserves his current momentom in addition to adding to it briefely, which is really how a HA target should work... for the most part. If you want to go further than that, you can have resulting momentum and angle deflection based on a "weight" value of the target, with the Spagonia balloons being the baseline. Sonic would actually pass straight through a lighter target when attacked, which when placed strategically - as much as I don't like the concept of enemies functioning as stepping stones, but you can always use environmental props in place of them if nothing else - allows them to act as a cornering boost by HAing a light object/enemy on a curve, or to get back to the ground quickly when there's solid ground to land on (similarly to the stomp, only this would allow you to land on an angle and preserve your momentum in the form of running speed). Heavier or indestructible enemies and objects, on the other hand, would cause Sonic's momentum to go elsewhere in upwards of 90 degree direction changes - like say, bouncing upward when attacking from the ground, or lengthways when descending from above. This creates an innate difficulty to confronting larger targets in that you have to be absolutely sure your exit velocity is safe, even if it results in a one hit kill like everything else.

This can be played with, too, if you want a few enemies that carry a little momentum-based surprise. Say, as a random example, bring back Crawl and his bumpers to invert Sonic's momentum if he attacks them wrong, or another shielded enemy that around destroys all of Sonic's momentum outright if he's blocked. Again, too, this need not apply just to enemies, as long as the learning curve allows the player to discern over time what kinds of HA-shapes will do what when hit.



Well, I think that was all the major points I wanted to put out there. Now let's see where this leads.

EDIT: OMFG ANIMATIONS TOO

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Edited by The Cheese, 30 May 2012 - 02:48 AM.


#2 Liam The Animator

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:12 AM

I'm with you on many of your points here. Although I don't see how the idea of the homing attack being multi-functional could work since how would you be able to for example, choose between the boost and slide? both are land based moves assigned to a single button which could cause problems. Aside from that I really love the idea of having guided jumps to land on enemies instead of the normal homing attack. I would also like to see some of the parkour implemented into the games since it seems to suit sonic quite well. Good topic mate well done =)

#3 Scar

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:52 AM

I agree 100%.....well not quite 100% as this idea yet needs to be tested using an actual game engine first, but you get the idea.

#4 Generations (Chaos Warp)

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

Cheese....I am proud.
This is an awesome concept, giving you the feeling of being Sonic with a simple mechanic of the Homing Attack. I really like how this would implement more Parkour and more Momentum-Based enemy killing. If it was a "Sonic only" or "Multiple Characters, but everyone gets their own levels", type of game, it would be amazing. But I feel this would not work in a, "Multiple Characters, everyone in the same level S3K style", game, because it specializes too much towards Sonic's unique abilities, and it would kind of overpower the level. But again, if it's the two other game types I mentioned above, that is perfectly fine.

#5 The Cheese

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

I'm with you on many of your points here. Although I don't see how the idea of the homing attack being multi-functional could work since how would you be able to for example, choose between the boost and slide?

Depending on the level design, you wouldn't really need them seperately. By throwing a few light enemies or stunt props around, in quick succession if necessary, you can get a quick acceleration boost simply by HAing all of them flawlessly - and while I don't mind Boost gameplay personally, I'd still much prefer something that requires a bit of preparation or forethought. As for sliding, I'm assuming you're talking about areas with low height clearance, which can be fixed simply by making slide areas HA targets and making Sonic roll/slide underneath on his own when he hits.

At a stretch I might accept double-tapping towards one direction for a quick burst of speed, again, if Sonic becomes too dependant on the level design to accelerate, but I didn't figure many people would have too much of a problem with it. People have been complaining that speed has been coming too cheap ever since Unleashed came out. XD

If it was a "Sonic only" or "Multiple Characters, but everyone gets their own levels", type of game, it would be amazing. But I feel this would not work in a, "Multiple Characters, everyone in the same level S3K style", game, because it specializes too much towards Sonic's unique abilities, and it would kind of overpower the level.

I swear we've discussed that exact same issue before. As a matter of fact I still have the crappy 5 minute MSpaint doodle I drew for the occasion:

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But I might as well expand on this seeing as the situation is somewhat different this time. Yes, Sonic can dominate levels that were built with Sonic in mind - that goes without saying. The key thing to remember, though, is that he's not theoretically all that good at cutting corners - unlike most other characters he's compared to in the multiple chars department, most of his abilities keep him firmly rooted to the ground unless he has things to bounce off of, which means that if it's ever necessary to give a character an advantage over him in a specific area, it's really just a simple matter of depriving him of HA targets, and making his route around a bit more roundabout as shown above if necessary. I'm obviously not a level designer myself, but I'm sure if you told one to do something like that they'd know what they were doing.

When it gets right down to it, though, I feel that balancing multiple characters is an issue of giving them abilities that use the exact same HA targeting reticule that Sonic does, but isn't necessarily a HA. For now that's something I'll leave up to everyone else's imagination seeing as it's not really the subject matter, but I will say it'd probably make Silver's telekinetic mechanics a hell of a lot more intuitive.

#6 Indigo Rush

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:40 PM

I really, really, really freaking like that ground-based homing attack idea. My only concern is figuring out how Sonic would "bounce" or " react to impact" when on the ground. When you do the HA in mid-air, it's obvious that Sonic will bounce forward... but hitting it dead on? How would that work? Would Sonic bounce back, come to a stop, or dash right through it? Because that last part sounds like a cool idea to build momentum.

And what if there aren't any targets? Would Sonic simply dash forward, or would it turn into a spin-dash?

#7 The Cheese

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:11 PM

I really, really, really freaking like that ground-based homing attack idea. My only concern is figuring out how Sonic would "bounce" or " react to impact" when on the ground. When you do the HA in mid-air, it's obvious that Sonic will bounce forward... but hitting it dead on? How would that work? Would Sonic bounce back, come to a stop, or dash right through it? Because that last part sounds like a cool idea to build momentum.

One part I completely forgot to mention in my OP was that Sonic should be able to subtlly influence his angle of approach once the player's already locked on... but only if his existing air control allows for that kind of maneuverability. I haven't exactly worked out in my head how that should work yet, control-wise, but the basic idea is that you'd want to hit an enemy at a fairly low angle if you want to keep your momentum lateral. If you were to land directly on top of an enemy, or simply hit them from a great height, you'd just bounce pretty fucking high up - kind of what you'd expect to happen by doing the same in a Genny game. Similar rules would still apply if you were to hit a lightweight target - the main difference being that since you pass straight through them, hitting them dead centre from above would have you hit the floor and completely waste all the vertical momentum you'd gained from a terminal velocity hit. Unless, you know, there was something fragile underneath. There's probably a Badnik idea in there somewhere.

Oh wait, you were talking about how it works on the ground. Derp. The simplest way to put that would be to say Sonic simply repurposes his existing running momentum to roll through the fucker, and if it's a lightweight, his feet won't even leave the ground. If he were to attack someone heavier, though, he'd deflect upwards a bit after the hit, causing the bouncing effect which most people liken to the Spagonia balloons. The biggest enemies would simply deflect Sonic straight upwards if you were to HA them on the ground - because the big bastard's probably immovable, all that energy would be transferred into a direction change instead. Or somesuch physics bullshit that probably makes sense in real life. But now I'm just rambling.

I should stop trying to make thoughtful posts right before bedtime.

And what if there aren't any targets? Would Sonic simply dash forward, or would it turn into a spin-dash?

Now that you mention it, I was trying to think of a way to integrate the spindash into things, and this gave me an idea. The way I've described my interpretation of the HA essentially means it's repurposing existing momentum from previous actions, which means a HA would be pretty fucking useless if there wasn't any, and the player was standing completely still. Which reminded me of the traditional requirement of starting a spindash, which incidentally, also happened to be standing completely still. Since it would be completely useless otherwise, you might as well make the HA double as some vauge kind of spindash when the player's standing still. Hooray dual purpose moves!

I'm not entirely sure the button should really do anything if it doesn't already have a target, though. I guess maybe you could use it to put a marker on something that isn't a predetermined HA point so Sonic can just home in on that instead, but that could clash with the existing HA points in pretty nasty fashion if you don't get priorities straight, so I don't personally think it's worth it.

#8 Chaos_Skies

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

So Sonic would essentially become a slingshot projectile and his velocity would be the major determinate of whether he would skip over the target, blast through it or be deflected in some other direction?

Hmmm, this is a really, really clever idea. I like the idea of expanding the homing attack to use it to interact with not just enemies/springs, but also the environment. I think one of the main benefits of incorporating something like this is its ability to really open up the level. The current levels really seem to be race track/roller coaster like. They are almost like the levels in the old playstation Crash Bandicoot games where you're mostly progressing forward through narrow channels, with very little lateral movement. I could see the introduction of an mechanic like to this to really open up each stage since you can build the level in every direction as opposed to mostly straight-a-ways (since you would be easily able to build momentum in multiple directions based upon the terrain) .

I guess my only concern with this particular gameplay mechanic is that it would definitely require a complete redesign of the current control scheme for sonic (which it seems like fans and SEGA are ready for). I definitely feel like the boost would have to be removed from the current control scheme in order for this mechanic to work (although it seems like that is the point, to introduce a momentum-based mechanic that requires more player input than just pressing a button). In some ways the boost could add variety to this mix though (ie deciding whether or not to boost through an enemy or use that enemy to deflect you in a different direction). Thinking about it from that perspective then, the boost could work, it would just have to be sort-of crippled...in a sense (ie not as powerful or easy to use)

#9 Indigo Rush

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:54 AM

You know what this makes me think of, in terms of combat, that is?



The way Dillon homes in on enemies with his "spindash" is pretty cool, though it doesn't chain enemies in quite the same way a homing attack would. Would something like this be a good idea for an extension of the homing attack?

#10 Rusty Spy

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:12 AM

Why yes I do in fact agree with absolutely everything you say.

I definitely feel like the boost would have to be removed from the current control scheme in order for this mechanic to work (although it seems like that is the point, to introduce a momentum-based mechanic that requires more player input than just pressing a button). In some ways the boost could add variety to this mix though (ie deciding whether or not to boost through an enemy or use that enemy to deflect you in a different direction). Thinking about it from that perspective then, the boost could work, it would just have to be sort-of crippled...in a sense (ie not as powerful or easy to use)

Spinning off of Cheese's current idea, the boost could be tweaked to work in a similar fashion; having Sonic's exit velocity be influenced by the target. It could work the same way it does now, but larger enemies make Sonic rebound off them slightly, so instead of bouncing upwards with the HA, he'd bounce off to the left or right of the target instead of plowing right through them, and also lose a bit of speed upon impact. Larger enemies would almost completely kill his speed.

And more so, badnik ideas could be sprung from this, like the previously mentioned Crawl, hitting him with the boost would make Sonic bounce off him much farther than normal enemies, potentially into a hazard.

#11 ChaosSupremeSonîc

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:03 AM

I think this concept would shine even more beautifully if we could see a visual concept of how this could be implemented.

I think this is a great idea, but when I look at this, I'm also thinking "how the hell are we going to simplify the controls to make Sonic do all that?" Main reason I say that is because this one concept may very well alter the entirety of how a Sonic game would play compared to what we've gotten in the past up to this point.

Not that I'm expecting this to be as complex as Prototype, because you don't actually want the player to feel like they're slowing down when changing things up like Prototype does when you're changing your powers. Since this is just one ability, we may not have to worry about that.

#12 The Cheese

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:47 AM

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I think this concept would shine even more beautifully if we could see a visual concept of how this could be implemented.

THE CHEESE COMES BEARING GIFTS OF MSPAINT GOODNESS

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I'll be adding to this as I go, so it's not technically done yet - just figured I'd put out the basics first to let you guys know I care. Incidentally, sorry about the fugly text on the first few lines - I'll fix that when I add the next bit.

#13 PerfectChaos

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:39 PM

If almost everything was a homing attack target, it'd be horrendous. Even now, occasionally you fly towards the wrong target if there are many onscreen.

#14 ChaosSupremeSonîc

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:37 PM

If almost everything was a homing attack target, it'd be horrendous. Even now, occasionally you fly towards the wrong target if there are many onscreen.

I'm pretty sure a reticle showing the direction of where you attack will hit like they've been doing since Unleashed would solve that problem quite nicely. Games like the Batman Arkham series tend to make use of that, for example.

#15 The Cheese

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:17 AM

If almost everything was a homing attack target, it'd be horrendous. Even now, occasionally you fly towards the wrong target if there are many onscreen.

That's a level design issue, not a problem with the mechanic. The sensible thing to do when a choice between two targets actually matters that much is simply to move them away from each other. That much is true even in Sonic Team's interpretation of the HA, let alone mine.

A visible targeting reticule also helps clear up any potential confusion as to what you're aiming for, as CSS mentioned. The only concession needed is that it have a certain cone of leniency (somewhere within 45 degrees of Sonic's facing, give or take) to lessen the difficulty of "aiming" whilst moving, and to aim for the closest (distance wise or angle wise - whichever takes priority) target should more than one be in the same facing. Sonic already does most of that in his current games, so it's not really that hard to adapt.

#16 PerfectChaos

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

That's a level design issue, not a problem with the mechanic. The sensible thing to do when a choice between two targets actually matters that much is simply to move them away from each other. That much is true even in Sonic Team's interpretation of the HA, let alone mine.

A visible targeting reticule also helps clear up any potential confusion as to what you're aiming for, as CSS mentioned. The only concession needed is that it have a certain cone of leniency (somewhere within 45 degrees of Sonic's facing, give or take) to lessen the difficulty of "aiming" whilst moving, and to aim for the closest (distance wise or angle wise - whichever takes priority) target should more than one be in the same facing. Sonic already does most of that in his current games, so it's not really that hard to adapt.

The homing attack having a smaller 'cone of leniency' and smaller distance would probably be a good idea I suppose

#17 Amomynous

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:09 PM

Like the idea of being able to hop on obstacles and scenery but it sounds a bit like it might devolve into 'homing attack to win' if Sega tried it, but I guess trying something new always has it's risk.

I can't help but think it would be a good idea to give Sonic's spin jump a larger hitbox though, so you can 'just jump on things' seriously I try it and nothing happens even though it definitely went into the enemy's model,it only works if you hit dead center.

Did you take this idea to the Sega forums? If you post it there then staff are more likely to see this.

Edited by Mysterics, 08 June 2012 - 06:42 PM.


#18 New Year's Miru

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:23 AM

Very good idea.

#19 Wolfy

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:38 AM

Very good idea.


Ya know, instead of spamming, the almighty "like" button works just fine to let them know.

#20 Marx rT

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:02 AM

The real concern is that it might take one or even more games before fans get used to such new mechanic, as CSS said, everything despite control would be changed significantly, I do love ground HA but I'll still push jump button twice when "HA" pops in my head, it's like something inertial, not only to fans, but also to developers. Though I guess it's worth the risk.




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