317 replies to this topic

[Metal Gear (sting)RAY]

http://kotaku.com/59...ame-stereotypes
http://www.feministf...ing-on-youtube/

Speaking as a male, I know that while feminism does have a bit of an ugly stigma due to a number of aggressively vocal and arbitrarily defensive followers (i.e. "Feminazis") it's far from a meritless movement; sexism and women's rights are still an issue in the modern world. But I hadn't even realized that so many people could be this backwards in this day and age, and trust me- I live in America; I see a LOT of backwards shit.

Story is, a blogger named Anita Sarkeesian is Kickstarting a documentary series on the portrayal of women in games. It's hard to argue that video games have represented women well over the history of the medium, with only a handful of legitimately well written characters next to the tidal wave of one-dimensional characters that wear armor that covers everything but the boobs. But as with any issue, there's fair room for disagreement; I certainly may not agree with everything she's calling for, but you know what there's not room for? This shit.

YouTube comments have never been a prime example of intelligent discourse, but all I see are stronger justifications for her project. I mean, is this really what it's come to? People are so afraid that her intentions (for better or worse) are so potent that GOD FORBID she gets to make this documentary their precious medium will be de-bimbofied? Personally, I don't completely agree with all her stances. As far as I'm concerned, it's alright to sexualize female characters as long as they aren't sexualized exclusively (i.e. males get the same treatment) or have a personality at least as strong, likable and three dimensional as their body. But the thing is I don't have to cover her Wikipedia page in porn and slander to make that point.

Sad thing is, this isn't a new issue. Beyond the already apparent level of harassment on Xbox Live, there was a similar uproar over Mass Effect 3's inclusion of a gay romance option because it was apparently trying to hamfist cultural commentary into the game(???) and one of BioWare's writers was harassed similarly for a while for giving some very controversial opinions on the nature of narrative in games. Again, I largely disagree with her, but death threats aren't the answer. Seriously, is that something I HAVE to say? It just bothers me to see this happen because it means people are so defensive about their sacred hobby that anyone who tries to question its methods and opens the way for new ideas, whether they're fair or misguided, to making it more accessible and acceptable to the world at large is trying to ruin it.

So I'm not asking you to agree with Ms. Sarkeesian or even donate anything to her, but I really have to bring up this subject because this shit just isn't right. Time was when you wanted to insult someone you had to say it to their face; we seriously need someone to invent a "punch user through screen" button. Not because I actually want to punch these people, but so they can learn that there's a difference between free speech and words not having consequences.

[Gabe]

"Dear Internet: Grow Up"

Sorry to burst your bubble, but.........it won't. It simply just won't. See GIFT.

[Solkia]

God forbid they're clothes reveal too many polygons.

But being serious, was she not expecting backlash? If there's a place you'll find nerds who love their animated tits, it's the internet. Not saying that justifies being a dick about it, but was she not aware of this?

On the subject of sexification, I think it doesn't hurt anything if used lightly. If it's something like DOA with breasts flopping everywhere and skirts flashing panties, then it's pretty ridiculous.

[Blacklightning]

When I saw the title, I was immensely disappointed to find that it wasn't about a game in development that involves a protagonist waging war against stupid internet memes.

Honestly, I can't say I've paid much attention to sexual stereotypes in videogames. You know, besides the obvious ones - you know it's kinda sad when bringing a woman into a major role for anything other than softcore tits is actually considered relatively refreshing. But while it certaintly is done explicitly for sex appeal on some occasions (and again, the offenders here are obvious - looking at you, Itagaki), I actually feel for the most part it's less about blatantly fetishising the female stereotype so much as simply aiming for the look which is bound to sell more, yet in all likelihood turn out to be ultimately generic. Women aren't exactly alone in that regard, what with ugly borderline-bald space marines with chests the size of fridges being all too prevalent in the market themselves, but I can definently see why the girl gamers would take more offense. Being depicted in skimpy apparel for no good reason besides money is hardly dignifying - most male gamers, on the other hand, would take being ripped to the nines as a compliment if nothing else.

The point I'm trying to make is that, honestly, I think she's looking at this the wrong way. For the most part, it's less of a point about fetishism and more about characters being incredibly bland and generic, male or female. It's something both sides could stand to benefit from, and when it gets to such a point that sides even need to be decided based on gender I just think it's a bit silly.

EDIT: That said, it would be nice to see some actual girl gamer perspective from someone here at SSMB. I kinda feel like a twat talking about female portrayals in games when the only ones posting so far are guys. =<

Edited by The Cheese, 12 June 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I want to believe that the prime source of that kind of bile is in fact, adolescents and teenage boys, who honestly really do need to grow up. The thought of adults, functioning members of society, typing stuff like that revolts me.

Still, as a dude who likes girls and dudes, I gotta say video games do a pretty good job of delivering the sexay on the male front too. I don't mind exploitation when it's deliberate and doesn't pretend to be a reflection of reality.

I hate guns, but I still like shooting polygon humans with polygon bullets. I support fair gender relations, but I still like the polygon humans to look pretty.

[Diogenes]

Seems like the hardest thing to do is to get people to consider that maybe they need to change. Say anything like "hey that's a little sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc etc" and you'll get dozens and dozens of people jumping down your throat as if you called them a klan member and pulling out every and any ridiculous excuse to defend whatever it is they're doing.

[BW199148]

Problem is the internet gives a voice to everyone including herself. Not that I agree with peoples comments and I don't 100% agree with her either. What about other stereotypes in games, racial and personality stereotypes and so on?

Next she will be bitching about Anime and Manga, While she is right about Lego being largely aimed at boys (which is very true), only for her to bitch when Lego bring out sets aimed at girls, she bitches at that because its "too" stereotypical, too girly, its like you can't win with her.

Why doesn't which complain about bigger issues and broader issues? Instead of just crappy tropes and easy targets like pop culture?

Also all her video seems to focus on Negativity rather than anything positive about women in today's society. Its biased and one sided.

But what the fuck do I know? I am just a guy with a dick.

These days I actually feel bad for being born with a dick and being heterosexual.

[Emmett L. Brown]

These days I actually feel bad for being born with a dick and being heterosexual.

Whoa there! Let me put the lid back on that can of worms you just opened.

Having a nice day? I'm having a wonderful one.

[Blacklightning]

The thought of adults, functioning members of society, typing stuff like that revolts me.

I hope you brought a barf bag, then. This goes a step further than that. Not only does there exist a community where people have the utter gall to speak that kind of thing to female gamers face to face, in public, but they even try to justify it by saying - and I really must emphasise that I'm not making this up - that it's part of the fighting game culture, and that it wouldn't be the fighting community without sexism.

While I will reiterate the portrayal of females within the games themselves isn't necessarily fetishism so much as playing it overly safe in the design department, sadly I still have to maintain that the community built around these games is complete and utter scum. Which... I guess is what this topic was about in the first place, wasn't it? Hmm.

[Diogenes]

What about other stereotypes in games, racial and personality stereotypes and so on?

What about them? Yes there are a lot of shitty stereotypes about every marginalized group, can people not address one of them without having to address all of them?

Next she will be bitching about Anime and Manga,

Okay, and? Is there some reason anime and manga are free from criticism?

While she is right about Lego being largely aimed at boys (which is very true), only for her to bitch when Lego bring out sets aimed at girls, she bitches at that because its "too" stereotypical, too girly, its like you can't win with her.

Oh wow. Hey, maybe the solution is to actually produce and market a wide range of things to both genders instead of having "real legos" for boys and a separate set of stereotypically "girly" legos for girls.

Why doesn't which complain about bigger issues and broader issues? Instead of just crappy tropes and easy targets like pop culture?

Yeah, never try to fix anything unless you're attacking the biggest problem possible. All those doctors are wasting their time treating other diseases when there's this cancer thing out there.

Also all her video seems to focus on Negativity rather than anything positive about women in today's society. Its biased and one sided.

A channel focusing on misogyny and sexism in media spends its time talking about the misogyny and sexism in media? What a fucking shock.

But what the fuck do I know? I am just a guy with a dick.

These days I actually feel bad for being born with a dick and being heterosexual.

Y'know this is exactly the shit I was talking about. It's you, you are the shithead.

e: And yes I realize I'm kind of skewering my previous point and being the guy calling them klan members, but to see the exact shit I was talking about, a goddamn hat trick of stupidity, just 10 minutes after I posted it...well, fuck.

Edited by Diogenes, 12 June 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I hope you brought a barf bag, then. This goes a step further than that. Not only does there exist a community where people have the utter gall to speak that kind of thing to female gamers face to face, in public, but they even try to justify it by saying - and I really must emphasise that I'm not making this up - that it's part of the fighting game culture, and that it wouldn't be the fighting community without sexism.

While I will reiterate the portrayal of females within the games themselves isn't necessarily fetishism so much as playing it overly safe in the design department, sadly I still have to maintain that the community built around these games is complete and utter scum. Which... I guess is what this topic was about in the first place, wasn't it? Hmm.

I do remember when Extra Credits did a topic on that one. Makes me a little depressed. I'd say something defending word choice with regards to what is intended by their use as opposed to what they actually mean - but honestly I don't wanna justify any of it. It's just despicable.

[Carbo]

In terms of sexism, I don't see why you're bringing Hepler into this when most of people's attacks on her were retaliations. At first people criticized her for being a hack writer who has no business writing for video games (rightfully so might I add) and her response on Twitter was quite literally "I figure they're jealous since I have a vagina AND a games industry job and they can't get either". Oh, and fellow BioWare employers white-knighting her on Twitter by openly insulting anyone who dare call her out.

That's a massive double standard; double standards being the one key reason as to why I just can't get behind most debacles about gaming sexism unless there's a specific deconstruction in play. As for the death threats, I'm surprised people actually take those seriously anymore, and those aren't gender exclusive.

Also this.

I hope you brought a barf bag, then. This goes a step further than that. Not only does there exist a community where people have the utter gall to speak that kind of thing to female gamers face to face, in public, but they even try to justify it by saying - and I really must emphasise that I'm not making this up - that it's part of the fighting game culture, and that it wouldn't be the fighting community without sexism.

I always found this incident kind of hilarious in a quasi-ironic way since those insults came from the same guy who openly kept flirting with Kayo Satoh during Evo2K11.

[Marionette Cherry]

Alright so it's wrong for women to be in scantily clad clothing but then when we've got games like God of War showing a mans muscles and other features and that stuff goes over their heads?

I'm sorry, this is just really stupid.
Why is that acceptable? But god forbid a woman shows her cleavage.

Gotta love how society works nowadays

[BlazingTales]

I really wish the term "feminazi" didn't exist. Do you know who coined that phrase? Rush Limbaugh. Yes, the same guy who used slut-shaming to criticise a college student's view on medical care. It's an absolutely dreadful phrase that does absolutely nothing but disrespect and antagonise both the feminist and masculinist movements.

Now this goes without saying: there are women out there who most definitely fit the bill of "feminazi", and they are just as much an enemy towards feminism's goal as the average misogynist. But covering your ears and excusing every gender-related critique as the work of "feminazis" is not going to build understanding or solve anything. Even though things are better than ever before, there are still problems, difficulties, glass ceilings and stereotypes faced by both men and women today. And if one "side" isn't willing to even listen to the other, we will never see these issues disappear.

Onto the subject at hand, while I can't say I fully agree with the video, I do admire at very least the concept and trend it is attempting to point out. Both men and women are sexualised in games; heck, everyone's sexualised in the media as a whole. I think the problem lies in that, more often than not, women are sexy first, and characters second. It has nothing to do with the characters being good looking; it's how sex appeal is displayed.

For example, let's look at the Arkham City boxart shown in the video:.



Look at the poses on the boxart. There's Batman: mysterious and focused. Then you have the Joker, whose smile cannot be mistaken for anything but maniacal and twisted. But what do the poses of the females say about them as characters, besides, you know, "I'm sexy and I know it"?

When I first look at Chris Redfield and Ezio Auditore, I think "badass hero"... then I think "dead sexy." Unfortunately, body language generally doesn't do as much justice to otherwise perfectly good female characters, like Lara Croft and Samus. The problem isn't about scantily clad women (although I do think it might do the media some good to have a little more diversity in female character design, but that's a different discussion altogether), it's about making sure those women are being presented as characters instead of yard ornaments.

Edited by BlazingTales, 12 June 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[BW199148]

What about them? Yes there are a lot of shitty stereotypes about every marginalized group, can people not address one of them without having to address all of them?
Okay, and? Is there some reason anime and manga are free from criticism?
Oh wow. Hey, maybe the solution is to actually produce and market a wide range of things to both genders instead of having "real legos" for boys and a separate set of stereotypically "girly" legos for girls.
Yeah, never try to fix anything unless you're attacking the biggest problem possible. All those doctors are wasting their time treating other diseases when there's this cancer thing out there.
A channel focusing on misogyny and sexism in media spends its time talking about the misogyny and sexism in media? What a fucking shock.
Y'know this is exactly the shit I was talking about. It's you, you are the shithead.

e: And yes I realize I'm kind of skewering my previous point and being the guy calling them klan members, but to see the exact shit I was talking about, a goddamn hat trick of stupidity, just 10 minutes after I posted it...well, fuck.

Surely you can see that their is inequality on both sides not just women, that was trying to say, yet you want to label me a sexist pig, go ahead seeing as already called me a shithead.

[crystallize]

"Woman isn't just a sexy body, she got feelings" is not just a problem of games or internet, it's problem of entire mankind. And every time I see or talk to nicely looking girl - it's my problem too.

[Tornado]

Surely you can see that their is inequality on both sides not just women, that was trying to say, yet you want to label me a sexist pig, go ahead seeing as already called me a shithead.

When you have the balls to say you feel you are discriminated against for being a straight white male, you deserve the response Diogenes gave you.

Edited by Tornado, 12 June 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[James McCloud (Megumi)]

If a girl's cleavage or full breasts are exposed for artistic reasons, I don't mind, makes me realize that breasts are not always the enemy, now if we are talking women characters who are massive sex-demons, no.

[Shirou Emiya]

To be fair about that Batman boxart, Catwoman was always ​about the sex appeal, being the sexy temptress cat burglar who spends a good deal of her interactions flirting with Batman. Harley does not have that excuse, however, and her regular outfit outside the Arkham games covers pretty much everything except the face. Not that this stopped The Creeper from crushing on her on sight in the animated series. (Speaking of which, the Creeper not turning up in Arkham City despite Jack Ryder showing up in-game is a huge missed opportunity, seeing as how the Creeper even scares the crap out of the Joker himself. But that's a whole different topic.)

As The Cheese mentioned, the sexual stereotypes are somewhat inconsistent. Guys want sexy babes, girls find that stereotype offensive, but when men are ripped to the nines, the men want to be that as well. Sure, both men and women have no issue with being good-looking, but when you start removing clothes and getting into stereotypes, well, that's where the trouble starts.

Disagree or agree with Ms. Sarkeesian, but the people insulting her are just stupid. And then there's the guy who claimed sexism is inherently part of the fighting game community, he deserves a table in the face for that comment. No good community should need sexism or anything like it - to say otherwise is sheer stupidity.

Edited by Masaru Daimon, 12 June 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Diogenes]

To be fair about that Batman boxart, Catwoman was always ​about the sex appeal,

And then there's the guy who claimed sexism is inherently part of the fighting game community, he deserves a table in the face for that comment.

Um.