43 replies to this topic

[Diogenes]

It's not about faffing about, it's about the playing. Looking at a route only in terms of whether it's faster or slower than others, or if it provides some visual difference or story context...what about actually traversing them? Is it fun to actually be playing the game?

[Nepenthe]

Am I not playing a Sonic game by sticking to my own desired path? You can probably argue I'm missing out, but that implies I've not tried to waste my time limit after being constantly bombarded with the proverbial holiness of alternate paths upon reaching the Internet. So after trying it with Sonic 3, I felt like I was just wasting time because there was just so little to actually see or do. If it's about the journey instead of the destination, the journey just can't be gainless.

Regardless, I see nothing wrong with my current determination. Alternate paths as they are commonly advocated for and implemented for are just not all that interesting. It's good to have so much vertical space in a level to alleviate the risk of killing yourself in a pit I guess; it was certainly a nice consideration in Colors and Generations. But without any depth beyond their existence, or any real utility at all, I feel no need to take advantage of them even when they're all over the place.

I also find it kind of weird that you- having previously chastised Sonic fans for not being scruntizing enough with modern gameplay and level design- would be defending alternate paths on what appear to be rather emotional terms. I don't think I'd get that kind of leeway from you or anyone else talking about why I like Unleashed's level design so much.

[MarcelloF]

I don't really get this topic.. It's kind of an odd question. Why shouldn't there be alternate paths? There's nothing really negative coming out from adding them, while there is for the opposite. Why would someone say there shouldn't be any?

[Azure Yakuzu]

I don't really get this topic.. It's kind of an odd question. Why shouldn't there be alternate paths? There's nothing really negative coming out from adding them, while there is for the opposite. Why would someone say there shouldn't be any?

Because apparently, some people feel alternate paths are redundant in that they don't really add anything to a level, especially if you'd take the fastest route by default.

[Diogenes]

So after trying it with Sonic 3, I felt like I was just wasting time because there was just so little to actually see or do. If it's about the journey instead of the destination, the journey just can't be gainless.

But this is what I'm saying; if the gameplay is fun, and the path is well designed, isn't taking it in itself a positive experience? Is the moment-to-moment gameplay not fun? Does it only become fun when you wrap it up into "a level"?

I also find it kind of weird that you- having previously chastised Sonic fans for not being scruntizing enough with modern gameplay and level design- would be defending alternate paths on what appear to be rather emotional terms.

Logic without emotion isn't much use. I don't think either should dominate completely.

And if it seems like I'm just making an emotional argument, it's more that I'm so baffled by it that I'm fumbling my words.

[Soniman]

@Batman

That's more a prefrence of the player rather than an inherent fault in the actual level design.

Edited by The Noodle, 21 July 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[MarcelloF]

Because apparently, some people feel alternate paths are redundant in that they don't really add anything to a level, especially if you'd take the fastest route by default.

But that's incorrect. They add new ways to get through the level.

If you don't want to take the alternate paths, then chose a favorite and stick with it. What problem is there with adding them for people who do like them? Having them adds more replay value, while not having them doesn't add anything. I don't see anyting negative in adding them.

[Azure Yakuzu]

@Batman

That's more a prefrence of the player rather than an inherent fault in the actual level design.

But that's incorrect. They add new ways to get through the level.

If you don't want to take the alternate paths, then chose a favorite and stick with it. What problem is there with adding them for people who do like them? Having them adds more replay value, while not having them doesn't add anything. I don't see anyting negative in adding them.

Hence why I think it's a bullshit excuse, not to add them. You're not losing anything by doing so.

[Diogenes]

Hence why I think it's a bullshit excuse, not to add them. You're not losing anything by doing so.

Well it's worth keeping in mind that adding anything to a game comes at a cost; the question isn't simply if the existence of a thing harms the game, but also if the cost of including it (as opposed to using that time/money/energy for something else) is justified by what we gain from it.

[Marx rT]

I say players are classified. Some prefer beating the game as fast as possible, while others prefer "covering every single corner of the world so I kinda feel like taking it over" thing, both leading to fun. Yeah games need to be fun so it is a matter of play style rather than a question of "should" or "should not".

For a designer, alternative paths are needed in order to please the majority of players. You can't throw em out just for the reason they are useless, what utility it has for an Easter Egg? For a place where NPCs chit-chatting to their infinity? it's true I would rather choose the fastest path after I learn it, but it's always fun and anticipating to know there are other possibilities, though they might not be the best.

Edited by Marx rT, 21 July 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[Nepenthe]

But this is what I'm saying; if the gameplay is fun, and the path is well designed, isn't taking it in itself a positive experience? Is the moment-to-moment gameplay not fun? Does it only become fun when you wrap it up into "a level"?

I find any gameplay the most rewarding when I feel like I'm applying the tools given to me towards a tangible goal that I really, really want to achieve. If I don't feel like I'm doing anything productive in a game, eventually I'm going to move on to a task- or another game altogether in worst case scenarios- that's actually productive, and in most cases the former means getting to whatever goal is at the end of the level. I partake in exploration when it has a tangible purpose; to unlock something, to get a better rank, or for world-building purposes. Exploration for exploration's sake only sustains me for so long.

Logic without emotion isn't much use. I don't think either should dominate completely.

And if it seems like I'm just making an emotional argument, it's more that I'm so baffled by it that I'm fumbling my words.

I don't understand how you could be so baffled by my position. Are the games I named above significantly flawed because they don't have a lot of alternate paths and sprawling levels? If the answer is no, how does it suddenly become incomprehensible that I can gain the same type of enjoyment from Sonic games by playing them in a straight-forward fashion?

[Azure Yakuzu]

Well it's worth keeping in mind that adding anything to a game comes at a cost; the question isn't simply if the existence of a thing harms the game, but also if the cost of including it (as opposed to using that time/money/energy for something else) is justified by what we gain from it.

Well I doubt anybody is asking for 5 different paths through a level, just maybe a simple path to show off different design can't cost that much, especially given how linear most platform games are.

[-Bender-]

Well I doubt anybody is asking for 5 different paths through a level, just maybe a simple path to show off different design can't cost that much, especially given how linear most platform games are.

Makes you wonder just how much it has cost SEGA to make each episode of Sonic 4. You would think that a £10.00/$15.00 digital download was quite cheap to make compared to £40.00/$50.00 for a box product like Generations. I would hope that is the case considering how disappointing some of the level designs are in Sonic 4. However, I bet that game cost a fucking fortune.

Multiple routes are all well and good, but the gameplay needs to be good otherwise whats the point?

Edited by MilesKnightwing, 21 July 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[JezMM]

I'd like to see levels where the routes change each time you play. Like sometimes a column falls down blocking a route, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a zipline snaps off halfway across, sometimes it doesn't.

Obviously this kind of replayability-boosting random event system would be totally absent in Time Attack mode, but for those of us who just like to play through the game on the regular mode, it'd keep people from always taking the same route from force of habit.

I mean they've done this a bit in the past with the Chemical Plant tubes and several other stage exclusive gimmicks. More I say!



I also think the cinematic eye-candy segments shouldn't be limited to the main route where alternative paths frequently reconnect. I know they probably take up quite a chunk of level budget so it'd break the heart of the developers that some first time players might not see them, but I'd much rather get them in limited amounts, or have totally secret ones hidden away to surprise me and keep them fresh.

Edited by JezMM, 21 July 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Marx rT]

I'd like to see levels where the routes change each time you play. Like sometimes a column falls down blocking a route, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a zipline snaps off halfway across, sometimes it doesn't.

I don't think it's a good idea since you can't ensure a smooth gaming progress, sometimes random levels just mess up. Randomness also means luck, a general cause to give up playing when "it's not my day".

[Nepenthe]

I don't think JezMM's idea would be too difficult to pull off. The modern games have shown a propensity for having routes alter in some way during motion without a high propensity for glitchiness. Things as simple as the dragon's opening mouth in Dragon Road or the GUN Truck in Generations are obviously easy to implement, and I imagine it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to further build on top of that by adding an alternate path and a variable to count for randomness, so the game could be capable of throwing two possible scenarios at you.

[Super Soniko]

where as alternate paths aren't a necessity they do add personal satisfaction for reaching harder to reach places or to simply show off some of the stages impressive sections or to shower you with eye candy, i can think of some routes that don't derive from your speed, which people tend to like... Once you create a combo of sorts of keeping your speed up, you're inclined to keep it up as long as possible for the sheer thrill of moving flawlessly in a stage without slow down.

i can think of a few alternate paths in Generations that just make me smile because of how satisfying they are to pull off in a single run, start of Speed Highway Act 2 immediately jumping from the start onto the rail which leads you to fast grinding and building running just felt great, or in Modern Sky Sanctuary, taking the water fountain to the higher path was also satisfying.

sometimes though alternative paths offer a route i prefer over others, this is evident in seaside hill. I hate getting stuck in the slow platforming sections over the sea turtles and lower routes, i always aim for the bobsled/car section.

[-Bender-]

I'd like to see levels where the routes change each time you play. Like sometimes a column falls down blocking a route, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a zipline snaps off halfway across, sometimes it doesn't.

Obviously this kind of replayability-boosting random event system would be totally absent in Time Attack mode, but for those of us who just like to play through the game on the regular mode, it'd keep people from always taking the same route from force of habit.

I mean they've done this a bit in the past with the Chemical Plant tubes and several other stage exclusive gimmicks. More I say!

Yes, also with levels like Marble Garden Zone (which I have just played) where the
ground moves (changes shape) forcing Sonic down a different path unless he reacts quickly.

The idea of routes constantly changing would be fun. Just think of Sonic CD's different time zones in each level (each with different paths) all in one single act. The landscape changing depending, eg what power up/shield you haold, what character your playing as, what the time is in the Act or even how many rings you hold.

Edited by MilesKnightwing, 21 July 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

You know what I also miss? Not just alternate paths but secret passages. We don't get those anymore? What about those small secret caverns and routes hidden behinds stuff like rocks and leaves that would contain hidden goodies? They were awesome. I miss those...

[Rusty Spy]

Well isn't this an interesting discussion.

At first I wasn't gonna bother mentioning it, but on the subject of alternate paths not being substantial enough for some people, I thought back to this fan-made level of Green Hill.


Normally I'm not the one to give much credit to fan-made levels, but this one here is probably the best example of a open-world like level in a Sonic game, and a decent example of level design that's both sprawling without being unfocused. Not entirely; it does tend to lean more on the non-linear side, but the basic structure and flow of the level is the closest balance between openness and linearity I've seen for a Sonic game.

I bring this up because the general progression through the level isn't a collection of set 'paths', but is dynamic, where the player could hop from one 'path' to another, seamlessly, and it's all structured in a way that's natural, flowing, and gives Sonic a chance to stretch his legs and take advantage of his abilities. Less so being guided through level gimmicks, but rather using his core abilities to traverse an environment.