24 replies to this topic

[Generations (Chaos Warp)]

Alright guys, let's try to discuss this again.

How would you design a 3d Sonic game? Would you go more Modern style, Adventure style, a translation of the Classic style into 3d, or something different entirely?

Myself, I would go for classic-styled momentum-based gameplay in 3d, but with modern twists.

There would be multiple playable characters, playing in the same levels, completely optional, but with their own unique abilities ala 3&K. For example, if the playable cast of the game was Sonic, Tails, and Knux (Sonic is always a given because it's his damn series) Sonic would have speed and agility-based abilities, Tails would have his flight and tail attacks, and Knuckles would be able to break certain walls and be able to climb and glide. Which cast members were playable would depend of the plot of the game (which would have a balanced tone and be more complex ala SA1 or Unleashed).

All characters would share the spin jump, rolling, spindash, and some form of the drift (for example, a faster character such as Sonic or Shadow has the regluar drift, but slower characters such as Tails or Knux has a altered form of it that makes them lose speed when they do it). Base controls would be SA1's, but with twice the top speed (but no accel increase, therefore it takes twice as long to get there on flat ground). As you went faster, past SA1's max flat ground top speed, your turning radius, or "arc" would increase, like the Modern games.

The level design would be less linear, and paths would be less defined, making it feel more open. There would still be a strong sense of direction however. It also would be really slope-y, for lots of momentum-based speed ala the Classics. Basically what Dio has touched on before.

The pace would not be fast as Modern gameplay (to allow for more content), but you could still reach some pretty high speeds using momentum and such, and blur effects would be used at higher speeds to give a better sensation of speed.

Elemental shields would come back, as well as the speed shoes.

There would be hub worlds, and a turn-off-able arrow telling you where you need to go next, so there is no confusion, frustration, and bad scores from reviewers. Ala Unleashed, you can just select a level/act to play from a menu screen once you have beaten it.

If not this, then an improvement and expansion of Modern gameplay, because I love it and it's my favourite 3d gameplay so far. But as long as it's fun enough, I will most likely love it or at least like it, whatever style it is.

That's my take on all this. Thoughts? Discuss!

Edited by Zero, 30 August 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[King Edward]

I'll be honest, after reading so many gameplay threads with the same arguments, I don't know WHAT they should do with Sonic's 3D career in the future.

Just want them to be fun.

[Soniman]

I'll be honest, after reading so many gameplay threads with the same arguments, I don't know WHAT they should do with Sonic's 3D career in the future.

Just want them to be fun.

This, it's gotten to the point where I am pretty sick of talking about what makes a 3D Sonic game great. Im just going to wait and see what Sega comes up with.

Edited by The Noodle, 30 July 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Gen]

A transition of both. I loved running around the HUB Worlds in Adventure (not so much 06 ), and miss them. Have that again for the HUB World style, and have a mixture of both when put into Acts. Have one be a Unleashed style, and another be an free roaming Adventure style. That's just my personal opinion.

[Diogenes]

Okay, this time I've got it.

Big, Marine, and Omega vs demons.

Big's gameplay is an FPS-platformer with heavy inspiration from the Duke Nukem games, both in gameplay and attitude. Marine's is a rhythm game; she's basically Ulala only not in space, also her enemies explode in showers of gore. Omega is a stealth game crossed with a dating sim; he must choose between sneaking past or wooing the demons until he reaches the head demon, at which point the player must perform an elaborate QTE to either kill or mate with it.

...

But no seriously where is my goddamn classic gameplay in 3D.

[King Edward]

But no seriously where is my goddamn classic gameplay in 3D.

Can you elaborate on how it could work please? Been wondering about that for a while.

[PerfectChaos]

In all honesty, I'd heavily refine and improve the Adventure formula for action stages. With a LOT of tweaking to Sonic's movement, and proper physics, I really believe this is the best way. Classic gameplay won't work in 3D, Modern kinda does but is too linear. Adventure was inbetween, and CONCEPTUALLY it was perfect. It just wasn't quite executed perfectly, but a good effort.

[Diogenes]

Can you elaborate on how it could work please? Been wondering about that for a while.

It's mostly self-explanatory, I think, but I guess I'll write it up how I'd go about it...

At its most basic form, you've got the left stick for movement, A for jump, and some other button (I'd put it on a trigger button, personally) for crouch/roll. Spindash is crouch+jump, include a reasonable replica of the Genesis physics and level design curvy enough to match, and you've got a functional, if barebones, "classic gameplay in 3D". To this I would add:

-The homing attack. Hitting enemies in 3D is difficult enough even at moderate speeds; moving at Sonic speeds, it's just not reasonable. That said, I wouldn't add it unaltered. It should bounce past enemies on hit, rather than straight up; more like homing attacking balloons in recent games. Ideally it would preserve your momentum (perhaps only partially) instead of bouncing you at a fixed speed. This would lead to more dynamic gameplay and help preserve momentum as compared to the current rigid homing attack. I've also been strongly considering being able to use it from the ground, similar to what The Cheese has proposed. For this reason it'd probably be on a separate button, rather than the usual jump+jump.

-An air action. Since the homing attack isn't jump+jump, something else can go here. What, exactly, I am not sure; probably some form of movement ability. Possibly a double jump, possibly an air dash (so you can use that even when you're in range of something to homing attack).

-A run button. Similar to the 2D Marios, this would increase your acceleration and top speed a bit when held. Sonic would still have a reasonable unassisted top speed without it (somewhere around SA's unassisted top speed, maybe), and it wouldn't be as fast as a fully charged spindash, proper use of the physics, dash pads, etc. It'd be mostly used to give the player more control over their speed, allowing them to choose between full acceleration or the more modest pace as needed. Sonic would also be able to "land" on a wall by pressing or holding the run button, as long as he has enough speed to stay on it. What I mean is, imagine you're running next to a wall, parallel with it. If you jump, nudge Sonic towards the wall, and press (or continue holding) the run button, Sonic will "stick" to it and begin running along it, without the need for a curve connecting the ground to the wall. Running could also have some secondary effect that may or may not be limited by an energy meter; if it is, I'd probably have it refill on its own, at a reasonably quick pace, and possibly have rings or an item also refill it. This would be on the opposite shoulder button as crouch/roll.

Possible additions are:

-An attack button. Something separate from the homing attack, something better for clearing out enemies at low speeds since the homing attack keeps you moving forwards now. There would be different attacks for on the ground and in the air, and possibly for running. This would go on a third face button.

-Drifting. I'm not entirely convinced that drifting would be necessary if the controls were up to snuff, but if it is, I have nothing against it. Drifting might be incorporated into the run button, since we're already using both triggers.

-An action button. Some general-purpose button, possibly for activating an equipped skill, possibly for activating Super Sonic, whatever it is that the game needs in addition to the core abilities. This would be the fourth face button.

Any other playable characters would share this same template, but with the details tweaked. Everyone will have some form of "homing attack", but it may not be the same "curl up and dash into enemies" as Sonic uses. Air actions would be things like Tails' flight and Knuckles' gliding. The run button's extra effects would be based on the character (say, for example, Blaze surrounds herself in fire that damages enemies; abilities like this are the reason it may need an energy meter). Basic attacks would also vary by character.

I think that covers just about everything.

Classic gameplay won't work in 3D

Why?

[True Eggman Fan]

-The homing attack. Hitting enemies in 3D is difficult enough even at moderate speeds; moving at Sonic speeds, it's just not reasonable. That said, I wouldn't add it unaltered. It should bounce past enemies on hit, rather than straight up

I actually agree with this. I recently just played Sonic 4 for the first time and see a bit of why people were complaining. That silly homing attack has gotten me killed a few times.

-An air action. Since the homing attack isn't jump+jump, something else can go here. What, exactly, I am not sure; probably some form of movement ability. Possibly a double jump, possibly an air dash (so you can use that even when you're in range of something to homing attack).

Perhaps insta-sheild again? I feel like jump+jump should be more of a slow down so you don't just drop down and fall, mid stop, "hover" for a split second, then slowly fall down.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

*Standard epic Dio post*

I agree with most of this, except two things:

- The run button thing I think is pointless for a platformer like Sonic and I feel it may make things feel a little too robotic. I like the sound of the wall running thing, yet at the same time I feel that could be an ability that Sonic could earn later in the game, allowing him access to routes he couldn't reach before in the level. I also feel it should be controlled by a gauge/timer so it can't be abused
- I feel character ground attacks should halt momentum at the end of them. This may seem like an odd decision for a momentum based game, but it actually worked really well in my opinion for Sonic Advance 1, because if you were carrying a little bit of momentum you didn't want you could do an attack to get back into control and follow up with a spin dash quickly.

Apart from that, my opinions are largely voiced here: http://board.sonicst...me/#entry509384 (I honestly can't be asked to type them all again). There's a few things I would rethink though.

Edited by SiLeNt PyRrH0n, 30 July 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[KatamariParadox]

*Classic in 3D explanation*

I agree with all of this except the run button. A character whose main gimmick is running fast does not need to be limited by a button, especially in 3D.

[Mr.Snarf]

I don't know why, but I am having a hard time picturing how momentum would work if there is that run button.

I'm also a bit worried at how good the handling would be during the assisted run, and when coming out of it (releasing the run button)

[-Big The Cat-]

Bring back the rolling ability. But not in the way the Adventure games did it, no. That was horrid and unnatural.

The Homing attack shouldn't work like this:


Instead it should work like this:



Keep the 2D transition thing.
There are somethings in 2D that you can't implement properly in 3D, and vice versa.
With enough thought put into the design, it's possible to deliver the best out of both worlds.

Level design.
Should be consistent, with various obstacles, platforming gimmicks, open areas, alternate routes etc.
Keep Sonic's expansive move-set but don't design the levels in a way where it would highlight them.
Unleashes day stages had more problems that just being linear and speed enforcing. They forced the player to use Sonic's expansive moveset, the levels were oriented according to them, this is not good.
So design the levels in a way where the player would have the choice to use Sonic's other moves where he wants it and when he want it.
In other words, keep moves like the boost, but don't orient the level design according to them.

[PerfectChaos]

Why?

Well, I meant proper classic without homing attack and stuff.Anyway, like others said the 'run button' might not be so good, and gauging it makes it a nerfed boost (especially with the drifting you mentioned)That homing attack momentum has to happen though.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

Bring back the rolling ability. But not in the way the Adventure games did it, no. That was horrid and unnatural.

The Homing attack shouldn't work like this:


Instead it should work like this:



Keep the 2D transition thing.
There are somethings in 2D that you can't implement properly in 3D, and vice versa.
With enough thought put into the design, it's possible to deliver the best out of both worlds.

Level design.
Should be consistent, with various obstacles, platforming gimmicks, open areas, alternate routes etc.
Keep Sonic's expansive move-set but don't design the levels in a way where it would highlight them.
Unleashes day stages had more problems that just being linear and speed enforcing. They forced the player to use Sonic's expansive moveset, the levels were oriented according to them, this is not good.
So design the levels in a way where the player would have the choice to use Sonic's other moves where he wants it and when he want it.
In other words, keep moves like the boost, but don't orient the level design according to them.

There's one issue with this:

Apart from in 06, the Homing Attack can't hit opponents above you.

[Diogenes]

- The run button thing I think is pointless for a platformer like Sonic and I feel it may make things feel a little too robotic.

How so?

I like the sound of the wall running thing, yet at the same time I feel that could be an ability that Sonic could earn later in the game, allowing him access to routes he couldn't reach before in the level.

I'm generally not a huge fan of this kind of design. And I'm not really sure how much incentive it provides to replay levels anyway. If you took path A the first time, I think coming back to look for path B is going to have more to do with how much you enjoy playing the game than getting a new move.

I also feel it should be controlled by a gauge/timer so it can't be abused

I'd rather leave that to the level design and the physics. Sonic would still need to maintain a certain speed to stay on the wall, and if the level is designed right, it wouldn't be used to break the levels (or at least, no more than 3D Sonic games normally end up broken by speedrunners).

- I feel character ground attacks should halt momentum at the end of them. This may seem like an odd decision for a momentum based game, but it actually worked really well in my opinion for Sonic Advance 1, because if you were carrying a little bit of momentum you didn't want you could do an attack to get back into control and follow up with a spin dash quickly.

I feel this wouldn't really be necessary if Sonic could brake properly. I'm not entirely against it though; rolling and homing attacking would take care of the "attack and keep moving" side of things, so it wouldn't be a big deal if the regular attacks stopped or slowed you down.

There's one issue with this:

Apart from in 06, the Homing Attack can't hit opponents above you.

Well, why not?

I agree with all of this except the run button. A character whose main gimmick is running fast does not need to be limited by a button, especially in 3D.

How is a run button limiting him? He'd still run at a decent pace without it, and he'd still be able to reach super-fast speeds through other means. The boost was more limiting than this would be.

I don't know why, but I am having a hard time picturing how momentum would work if there is that run button.

Literally exactly the same. At its most basic, all running does is increase the value used for acceleration and increase the top speed by a certain amount. It doesn't change the momentum mechanics in any way, it just makes Sonic a bit faster.

I'm also a bit worried at how good the handling would be during the assisted run, and when coming out of it (releasing the run button)

Well...I am too, since it's something most if not all 3D Sonic games have struggled with, and it's not something I can really devise a solution for without being able to test it, which I really don't have the option of doing. I would think the best solution is to have the controls be as responsive as in the Adventure games at lower speeds, and then from a certain speed onward it would slowly and smoothly transition to controls more like in the modern games.

Anyway, like others said the 'run button' might not be so good, and gauging it makes it a nerfed boost

The gauge would only be used for secondary effects, you'd still be able to run with it empty. And even if it was I wouldn't really call it a nerfed boost, since it's nowhere near as powerful, it doesn't provide propulsion on its own, and it doesn't damage enemies.

Also I'm thinking it might be better to put drifting on the roll button, so it doesn't interfere with secondary effects of the run...?

[Generations (Chaos Warp)]

There's one issue with this:

Apart from in 06, the Homing Attack can't hit opponents above you.

So why don't we make it so it can? I don't really see the problem especially when this is smoother then the current Homing attack.

[DinodudeEpic]

I would want a Genesis-based 3D game too. (With levels that have intertwining multiple paths.)

Although, I would like a few twists on some of the moves, and add some Modern moves like the 'boost' and drifting... (Don't worry, I will get to the 'boost' later.)

Rolling- Rolling should accelerate at a faster speed than the Genesis games when going down-hill. The reasoning is to both balence it with the boost/spin-dash and to have enormous sensations of speed. I also would like the usage of blur effects once you reach a ceartin speed. (There should be no speed cap for rolling. So, you have enormous potential for speed.)

Spindash- The spindash should be single button and slowly charge up through levels. (But, you have to stop to use it.) There will be 4 levels, measured by a gauge. Each level will be faster than the last. (Much like the Genesis games.) The first three levels will be the same as their Genesis counterparts with the fourth level being something close to the Generations spindash. Blur effects would be used for Level 4 spindashing.

Instashield- Instead of a homing attack, the Instashield will be used to solve the problem of jumping on enemies in 3D. The instashield would increase the attack radius, as it did in Sonic 3K. And, it would still have rebound to it, unlike the Sonic 3K version.

Peelout (The Boost) - The Peelout is going to be the replacement for the Boost. The Peelout will only work when Sonic reaches a high enough speed. (You still have to press a button though.) Not only that, but it will also have the weaknesses of making you vulnerable to enemies (Like the Super-Peelout of Sonic CD.) and having a gague that drains at a faster pace than the Boost does in the Modern games. (It would deflect projectiles though.) The Peelout's drainage rate would depend on the angle that Sonic is running on. So, you would have a faster-draining Peelout when running uphill than running on flat ground. (It would be caculated out of the angle's degree.) This does not apply to running downhill. (It drains at the same rate as running on flat ground.) Refueling the Peelout could be done through either a trick system that gives you Peelout energy for using the momentum physics system or through Wisps. (Both would be just fine.)

Of course, I would like a level design that focuses on platforming and slopes. (With the use of various power-up items that are slowly introduced into the game. Both with Wisps and shields.)

[Carlos Tyler]

I think they should just keep doing what they did with Sonic Generations which is my favorite Sonic game at the moment. My older brother said they might not bring back the young Sonic that he calls classic. I think a game about Sonic and Shadow would be cool.

[-Clara Oswald-]

Personally I would like a 3d Sonic game with no complicated physics.

Jump, spindash, role, elemental shields, level gimmicks is more than enough. It worked in 2d Sonic games, so why can't this be a success in 3d Sonic games.