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Israel vs. Gaza: Another Bloody War?


Patticus

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Israel retaliates by going all colonial on Palestine:

Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials.

It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

The Palestinian Authority has said it will not return to peace talks without a freeze in settlement building.

The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state.

According to the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, some of the new units will be between Jerusalem and the settlement of Maale Adumim.

Plans to build settlements in the area, known as E1, are strongly opposed by Palestinians, who say the development will cut the West Bank in two, preventing the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

The move is a first indication of Israeli anger, less than 24 hours after the vote on Palestinian status was held at the UN, the BBC's Kevin Connolly in Jerusalem reports.

The Palestinians may well have been expecting this - or something like it - but it is a reminder that the gulf between the two on the settlement issue remains huge, our correspondent adds.

Earlier this month, a paper by the Israeli foreign ministry described the Palestinians' pushing for the vote as "crossing a red line that will require the harshest Israeli response".

About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

'Political theatre'

Earlier on Friday, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the UN vote was "negative political theatre" that would "hurt peace".

The General Assembly voted by 138-9 to recognise the Palestinians as a non-member observer state, with 41 states abstaining.

The Palestinians can now take part in UN debates and potentially join bodies like the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said it was the "last chance to save the two-state solution" with Israel.

Two decades of on-off negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank have failed to produce a permanent settlement, with the latest round of direct negotiations breaking down in 2010.

In January, several months of indirect "proximity talks" ended without any progress.

Palestinian negotiators insist that the building of Jewish settlements on occupied land must stop before they agree to resume direct talks.

Their Israeli counterparts say there can be no preconditions.

Mr Abbas was much criticised by many Palestinians for remaining on the sidelines of the conflict between the militant Hamas movement and Israel earlier this month in Gaza.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20552391

I am seriously fucking sick of Israel's shit. I know Palestine's not without a massive burden of blame all its own, don't be thinking I endorse their many atrocities or Hamas' human shields, but this is unacceptable and, characteristic of all of Israel's responses, utterly disproportionate. It's the Berlin Wall all over again, and everyone knows that it'll only serve to fuel decades of further conflict. If there is any justice in the world, this action would result in heavy sanctions levied against Israel until it abandons all attempts to split up Palestine. But it won't, because the Jewish lobby in America and Europe is far more powerful than it has any right to be, so Israel gets to get away with crap no other country would get away with (except Soviet Russia).

I honestly wonder at times like this if Iran shouldn't just nuke the whole damn area when it has the chance, just to settle the matter for a century or two.

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Israel retaliates by going all colonial on Palestine:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20552391

I am seriously fucking sick of Israel's shit. I know Palestine's not without a massive burden of blame all its own, but this is unacceptable and, characteristic of all of Israel's responses, utterly disproportionate. It's the Berlin Wall all over again, and everyone knows that it'll only serve to fuel decades of further conflict. If there is any justice in the world, this action would result in heavy sanctions levied against Israel until it abandons all attempts to split up Palestine. But it won't, because the Jewish lobby in America and Europe is far more powerful than it has any right to be, so Israel gets to get away with crap no other country would get away with (except Soviet Russia). Iran should just nuke the whole goddamn area when it has the chance, that should settle the matter for a century or two.

But but but but, don't both sides do the same exact things to each other? (sarcasm)

Thanks for that dose of reality here.

Here we have the MODERATE Abbas government wanting to advance the Palestinian People's cause peacefully, against the wishes of Hamas (who in the past have been willing collaborators with Israeli forces in order to take power from secularists btw).

Instead of welcoming this promising turn of events, Israel acts like a rebuffed child and doubles down on their genocidal bullshit. Just disgusting behavior from them and from "Ambassador" Susan Rice too.

Edited by Ball Hog Badnik
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I honestly wonder at times like this if Iran shouldn't just nuke the whole damn area when it has the chance, just to settle the matter for a century or two.

Yeah, no. Let's not go and think about something like that, please.

That would cause even bigger problems on an international scale if Iran even thinks about doing that, possibly even a potential WWIII at it's very worse. I'd rather they not go and risk something like that.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I said that out of frustration.

But seriously, how can peace ever be achieved if Israel keeps pulling this shit in retaliation, which it knows will stir up trouble for decades to come? It seems clear to me now that they (at least, the present gov't) don't really recognize Palestine's right to statehood, even while most Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist; nor are they sincere about a peaceful two-state solution. They're going to keep on whittling away at Palestine, planting settlements a few at a time hither and thither as their tantrums dictate, walling them off as they go, shattering the contiguous Palestinian state into hundreds of tiny walled-in pieces, to be absorbed whenever the last Palestinians leave or capitulate.

This is just another land grab.

And it makes my blood boil.

Edited by Patticlaus
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I take it the actual Israeli citizens wouldn't mind a two state solution and also believe their government is just throwing a temper tantrum?

Really, Israel is just making itself the equivalent to North Korea in it's hiding behind a superpower to do what it wants regardless of whether it pisses anyone else off.

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I'm sure a great many Israelis would prefer a two-state solution, but until they elect a liberal government willing to work with a moderate or liberal Palestinian leadership, ceding territory to Palestine (and properly compensating and apologizing to those Palestinians thrown out of Israel at its inception, while Palestine compensates and apologizes to Israelis who have lost loved ones to rocket fire) in exchange for a lasting peace agreement, or something along those lines, I just don't see it happening.

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I don't think this move has anything to do with statehood for Palestine. Israel gets shafted now that Abbas is taking a more independent route when it really wants first say in negotiations, such as matters of East Jerusalem. Let me be realistic - Israel is not going to give up East Jerusalem or the largest of their settlements. A lot of Israelis consider the settlements or at least the idea of them a prize for having to fight decades of wars against Arab countries and Palestinian factions. A moderate government would not be opposed to land swaps - even Netanyahu's government agrees to land swaps - they are the clearest way to peace - but they want to choose the where to put the border. They want to draw the line around Jerusalem and the settlements in direct proximity to it, with Ma'ale Adumim being the 3rd largest Israeli settlement. Abbas is seeking outside help which by all means he should do (Gaza helps his cause so this is very relevant to the topic), so Israel is bluntly stating its point of view.

Edited by American Ristar
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Israel and Palestine are both set on having their respective capitals be in Jerusalem, which means that a divided city would necessarily have to be a key part of any future peace agreements - if Israel takes it all, Palestinians will not accept peace, just as if Palestine took all of Jerusalem, Israelis would be up in arms. The only other option, which would have to be forced on both parties, would be for Jerusalem to become an independent city state with no national capitals in it at all. That would be a good solution to the problem of Jerusalem, if only both parties would consider it.

If those settlements, which are illegal under international law, are considered prizes for having to fight decades of wars, what then should be considered adequate recompense for the tens of millions of Palestinians who were forcibly expelled as Israel was founded and conquered more and more territory; who continue to endure such terrible conditions at the hands of a clearly far more powerful state? Israel has endured a lot, but it has always had the full and unequivocal backing of the US, while Palestinians have been getting screwed over for more than half a century, and have had no such support from a superpower. Israel has been allowed to do all kinds of nasty stuff while the world has turned a blind eye. What prizes should the Palestinians be awarded for their continual mistreatment?

If Israel is allowed to choose the location of its border, then it will forever be undecided on its location; constantly shifting it further into Palestinian territories as new illegal settlements spring up, until the Palestinian people are forced into exile. It's like asking a teacher's pet to mark the work of a weaker pupil who used to sit in their spot - obviously the weaker rival's gonna get shafted. The subject of border drawing must be taken out of Israel's hands and be put in the hands of an independent UN committee with all the necessary powers to enforce their decisions.

Abbas is seeking outside help because he has no other choice. Israel doesn't want peace, or a two state solution, it wants all of the Palestinian territories and it's going to continue eroding them until they have all been annexed and the native population has been expatriated and made refugees in neighboring Arab states, who will not exactly greet them with open arms. It is the unofficial policy of Israel to keep pushing out walls and settlements until they have total control of the region. It's the only way to explain why their actions do not match their words.

Anyways, here's an interesting article on why this UN vote business that has Israeli knickers all in a twist may be a bad thing for Palestinians:

[...]

Yesterday, the general assembly voted to admit Palestine as a state with observer status. Despite assurances to the contrary, the new state is likely to undermine the status of the PLO at the UN. Whereas the PLO represented all Palestinians, the PA only represents West Bankers. This recognition has diminished the Palestinian state geographically from 43% of historic Palestine granted by the partition plan to less than 18% of it (possibly 10%, if we factor annexations, settlements, military areas, etc), and has reduced Palestinians from 12 million people to 2.4 million West Bankers, 40% of whom are refugees.

The vote is essentially an update of the partition plan of 1947, whereby the UN now grants Jewish colonists and their descendants 80-90% of Palestine, leaving the rest to the native inhabitants, and it risks abrogating the refugees' right of return.

A small minority native to the West Bank (about 1.3 million people), for whom the PA claims to speak, will gain UN status as a state under occupation, while the Palestinian refugees in the West Bank (1 million people), along with six million other refugees, risk losing their right of return.

By recognising a diminished Palestinian state, the vote effectively abandons the UN understanding of the "Jewish state" as one that has no right to discriminate against or ethnically cleanse non-Jews. The new arrangement confers the blessing of this international forum on the Israeli understanding of what a "Jewish state" entails– namely, the actually existing legal discrimination and ethnic cleansing practised by Israel –as acceptable. That this occurred on 29 November, the date of the partition plan, reiterates this date as one of continuing defeats for the Palestinians who continue to suffer from Israel's colonial laws, and repeats UN guilt in denying Palestinians their rights not to suffer dispossession and racism. The Palestinians, however, whose majority is not represented by the PA, will no more heed this new partition plan than they did the last one and will continue to resist Israeli colonialism until it comes to an end and until Israel becomes a state for all its citizens with equal rights to all regardless of national, religious, or ethnic background.

http://www.guardian....cist-status-quo

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Israel and Palestine are both set on having their respective capitals be in Jerusalem, which means that a divided city would necessarily have to be a key part of any future peace agreements - if Israel takes it all, Palestinians will not accept peace, just as if Palestine took all of Jerusalem, Israelis would be up in arms.

I agree that East Jerusalem, which is demographically Arab should just be part of Palestine. Just understand the last time it was under Arab control people were being randomly sniped from tall buildings. There's a history to every apprehension in the peace process.

If those settlements, which are illegal under international law, are considered prizes for having to fight decades of wars, what then should be considered adequate recompense for the tens of millions of Palestinians who were forcibly expelled as Israel was founded and conquered more and more territory...

Wow that's a large number. They must have been moved like cattle, in trains, you know just like the Nazis did. The UN estimates the number of refugees from Israeli territory to around 711,000 - less than one million. Their number today is close to five million. Tens of millions?

What should be the recompense for the 900,000 Jews from Arab countries, who fled to Israel because of hostility to their native communities? What should Jordan offer for the massacre of Black September. What should Lebanese Christian militias offer the Palestinian Authority?

What prizes should the Palestinians be awarded for their continual mistreatment?

Palestine.

I agree with what you said about border drawing. Both parties must agree.

Anyways, here's an interesting article on why this UN vote business that has Israeli knickers all in a twist may be a bad thing for Palestinians:

http://www.guardian....cist-status-quo

All the numbers in this article are bullshit. Why would the Guardian publish this? He also wants to say Israelis are white racists again. For the record, Israelis are fucking brown. Is there some kind of guilt complex Europe has about Israel. It's not South Africa.

Edited by American Ristar
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Israel has endured a lot, but it has always had the full and unequivocal backing of the US

Actually, it hasn't. Not by a long shot. By all rights, Israel's alliance with the US is a relatively recent thing that only started as a result of the Six Day War, but never actually solidified until the Yom Kippur War - before that, Israel's main ally and protector was France for a good ten years, and the country was pretty much on its own before that. Between those two wars, the US was actually rather suspicious of Israel despite providing some material support, and early on, US public opinion was against the budding alliance, I kid you not.

Just wanted to throw that out there, since saying that the US was always Israel's backer is, well, rather historically false.

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All the numbers in this article are bullshit. Why would the Guardian publish this? He also wants to say Israelis are white racists again. For the record, Israelis are fucking brown. Is there some kind of guilt complex Europe has about Israel. It's not South Africa.

...I don't see your point, not at all. I mean... what does the color of the skin have to do with anything?

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Just wanted to throw that out there, since saying that the US was always Israel's backer is, well, rather historically false.

Makes me wonder how Global Politics will be on this issue. There's always some major shift in the political arena that looks like a potential shot to the foot, and things as they are now seem like it's gonna be a real "uh-oh" in the near future.

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...I don't see your point, not at all. I mean... what does the color of the skin have to do with anything?

Because right before people call Israel racist, they mention how European Israelis are, which is not the case. I am saying the article is ridiculous. The article also calls for a one-state solution, which is plain stupid. A one-state solution is a guaranteed civil war. It would be 1948 again.

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