Sonic character's Hidden Depths

[Nepenthe]

1) Actually Origins and World do have stories, they've just taken such a huge backseat to the gameplay that you actually have to look up what the heck they are.

The fact that I have to look up what their stories are because they're so far in the backseat as to be out of the car altogether is not a convincing argument that they have stories actually worth commenting about, hence why I said they have "no story." Specifically, they have "stories" about as much as Bad Dudes does. There's a set-up and some resolution material once you get to the end. There's no real narrative or any storytelling going on for most of the time.

 

2) You talk here as if I don't want improvement in the games as well, which is false. Again, never said characterization wasn't important, I just emphasized that gameplay should come first and foremost. The plot and characterization are apart of the total package, if either one hinders the gameplay then yeah, that's reason for me to care and be here.

 

This topic is specifically about Sonic's characterization and the depths of it or lack thereof. You came in complaining that we were even discussing it in the first place and continue to tell us that the gameplay is the most important thing. Not only has no one disagreed with this, but gameplay is not the point of this conversation. And if you now feel that characterization actually is important to a game, why did you come in bitching about the very subject of the thread in the first place?

 

3) Colors had an objectively awful story? And where was the plot lacking in any storytelling? I followed it well.

 

The mind control ray forces interesting conflict between Sonic and Tails that's quickly dropped. It never has any real use in the story and amounts to nothing but wasted potential. At the very most, you could have eliminated that particular cut scene and changed nothing about the story.

Despite being given personalities by Sega, the Wisps are never elaborated on in the game as anything but helpless power-up fodder which- along with the fact that Frenzy is still cognizant enough to be used as a power-up anyway- completely reduces the offensive nature of the scene where Sonic encounters the tanks and makes it a weird, melodramatic anomaly (along with the black hole scenes) in a story that is mostly supposed to be lighthearted, funny, and small in scale.

Yacker goes away for some reason that's never explained or even cared about for more than three seconds, and then he just shows up at the end out of nowhere. And speaking of him, Yacker doesn't have much of a personality either. He's nice, and that's about it.

Tails' translator role is downplayed by the fact that most if not all of the conflict could've been had by some educated guesswork and exploration around the theme park which is kinda what Sonic did anyway, especially in regards to the Generators.

Most of the story, like Unleashed's before and Generations' after, forgoes an actual escalating second act for a collect-a-thon series of events, where the characters hop from one place to the next fulfilling their goals while Eggman barely becomes reactive or even active as a villain, doing absolutely nothing about the heroes' progress except sending a boss or three their way until the end calls for him to appear as the final boss. Remember back in the SA1 days when Eggman was actively butting into the affairs of the gang, stealing Emeralds, shooting down planes, lying and conniving, and setting their progress back? Yeah, I miss that Eggman.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Gaming Misfit]

This post is so fucking stupid I had to delete it myself.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Gaming Misfit

[JezMM]

^ The only problem is that you simplify all the characters down to the stereotypes most applicable to them.

 

Mention Sonic's complete passion for freedom and the comparisons immediately fall down.  Unless Spider-Man and Sly Cooper also have this mentioned in pretty much every profile they've ever had written of them.

[Komodin]

At this point, I just have one question to ask: what negative characteristics does Sonic actually have? I'm actually quite interested in hearing them...

[SenEDDtor Missile]

At this point, I just have one question to ask: what negative characteristics does Sonic actually have? I'm actually quite interested in hearing them...

It SHOULD have been his overconfidence actually screwing him over (see Unleashed), but you know how that turned out.

It SHOULD have been a short temper, but the most we ever see is mild irritability at best.

 

Headcanonwise:

 

It COULD have been a selfish focus on personal freedom.

It COULD have been an inability to understand the viewpoints of others if it contradicts with his own.

It COULD have been a tendency to set off tension via unintentional insults or something.

 

And I can't think of anything else.

[Gaming Misfit]

^ The only problem is that you simplify all the characters down to the stereotypes most applicable to them.

 

Mention Sonic's complete passion for freedom and the comparisons immediately fall down.  Unless Spider-Man and Sly Cooper also have this mentioned in pretty much every profile they've ever had written of them.

 

It wasn't numbing characters down to certain stereotypes, it was pointing out which ones they are.  Honestly, anyone can see that certain characters fit certain other characters quite well, and then the stereotype is established.  Sure, some characters under the same stereotype have certain traits stand out more than others.  In the end though, it's the same set of beliefs.

 

And I don't ever recall Sonic's love of freedom being his main characteristic.  It's there, but it doesn't take up his whole character altogether....

 

Unless of course you're referring to the comics or the older TV shows, in which case I've been dismissing from the beginning.  Just talking about video games.

[JezMM]

It wasn't numbing characters down to certain stereotypes, it was pointing out which ones they are.  Honestly, anyone can see that certain characters fit certain other characters quite well, and then the stereotype is established.  Sure, some characters under the same stereotype have certain traits stand out more than others.  In the end though, it's the same set of beliefs.

 

And I don't ever recall Sonic's love of freedom being his main characteristic.  It's there, but it doesn't take up his whole character altogether....

 

Unless of course you're referring to the comics or the older TV shows, in which case I've been dismissing from the beginning.  Just talking about video games.

 

I guess my main confusion is the point you're trying to make... Like, we know the characters fit these stereotypes when you ignore the intricacies.  But that shouldn't really matter.  We should treat the characters as a whole.  It's not the stereotypes that make us care about them over other characters of the same stereotype, it's all the other little things too.

[Gaming Misfit]

I guess my main confusion is the point you're trying to make... Like, we know the characters fit these stereotypes when you ignore the intricacies.  But that shouldn't really matter.  We should treat the characters as a whole.  It's not the stereotypes that make us care about them over other characters of the same stereotype, it's all the other little things too.

 

Like what kinds of little things exactly?

[Nepenthe]

As much as we all have complained about it, I genuinely like seeing Sonic perform and interact with others under the various interpretations he's gone through over the years because he's just fun to watch in his own right, even when he's near perfect. However, I think you could take that perfection down a notch simply through a series of miscalculations or mistakes on his part (and actually not copping out on their implications; again, looking at you Werehog.) In fact, let's take the Werehog. I don't think Sonic would have been any less of a character had it turned out true that Chip had been helping keep his sanity in check. He is, after all, dealing with an insanely powerful planetary force necessary for the renewal of Earth every several billion years. It also would have given his relationship with Chip a more equivalent symbiosis throughout the majority of their trip and made the Adabat scenes all the more better. Sonic having a weakness in his heart, a mere potentiality for darkness or ferocity, does not make him a worse character. rather, the idea that he would be able to keep such a thing in check the majority of the time is just as admirable as his current persona, if not more, because what's victory without struggle?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Tornado]

In fact, to further what I said about every Sonic character being a stereotype, here you go.  Here's a list of most of the main Sonic characters I can think of, and what stereotype they fit to.

 

Sonic:

 

The typical young hero.  He's a bit too ambitious sometimes, but he always means best.  He loves adventure and always seeks to do what's right. 

 

Examples:  Spider-Man, Sora, Sly Cooper

 

Eggman/Robotnik:

 

The typical goofy villain.  He's more of comic relief than an actual threat.  Although he can sometimes prove to be a menace, it never gets in the way of getting a laugh out of him.  (Or at least, when his character is done right).

 

Examples:  Bowser, Classic Shredder from TMNT

 

Tails:

 

Typical young sidekick.  He's naive, innocent, and looks up to the hero.

 

Examples: Diddy Kong, Robin

 

Knuckles:

 

More rogue hero and occasional partner.  Although a rebel, and even a bit of a smartass, he still has respect for the main hero and always looks forward to a team-up.

 

Examples:  Protoman

 

Metal Sonic:

 

The hell-bent rival.  His only goal is to be the best.  He was originally created for that purpose, and he still stands by it.  He'll even go so far as betraying his creator if it means he can get his shot at fighting the hero.

 

Examples:  Bass

 

Shadow:

 

The antihero.  His overall character is meant to be a badass.  Although he started out a villain, he's now an on and off hero.  He often finds himself helping the hero now, and has discovered a new sense of respect for him. 

 

Examples:  Sasuke

 

Amy:

 

Clingy kind-of-sort-of girlfriend.  Do I even need to explain this one?

Other than Shadow's example, I don't think any of these really fit at all.

[Kuzu]

In fact, to further what I said about every Sonic character being a stereotype, here you go.  Here's a list of most of the main Sonic characters I can think of, and what stereotype they fit to.

 

Sonic:

 

The typical young hero.  He's a bit too ambitious sometimes, but he always means best.  He loves adventure and always seeks to do what's right. 

 

Examples:  Spider-Man, Sora, Sly Cooper

 

Eggman/Robotnik:

 

The typical goofy villain.  He's more of comic relief than an actual threat.  Although he can sometimes prove to be a menace, it never gets in the way of getting a laugh out of him.  (Or at least, when his character is done right).

 

Examples:  Bowser, Classic Shredder from TMNT

 

Tails:

 

Typical young sidekick.  He's naive, innocent, and looks up to the hero.

 

Examples: Diddy Kong, Robin

 

Knuckles:

 

More rogue hero and occasional partner.  Although a rebel, and even a bit of a smartass, he still has respect for the main hero and always looks forward to a team-up.

 

Examples:  Protoman

 

Metal Sonic:

 

The hell-bent rival.  His only goal is to be the best.  He was originally created for that purpose, and he still stands by it.  He'll even go so far as betraying his creator if it means he can get his shot at fighting the hero.

 

Examples:  Bass

 

Shadow:

 

The antihero.  His overall character is meant to be a badass.  Although he started out a villain, he's now an on and off hero.  He often finds himself helping the hero now, and has discovered a new sense of respect for him. 

 

Examples:  Sasuke

 

Amy:

 

Clingy kind-of-sort-of girlfriend.  Do I even need to explain this one?

 

 

You know if you simplify it that much, of course people are going to see them as shallow characters.

[JezMM]

Like what kinds of little things exactly?

 

As said his love for freedom is a key part of his personality.  He loves to spend his time just exploring the world and appreciating all the cool things there are to see.  He hates being tied down to one place.  His love for chilli dogs is obviously a more lighthearted one but it is one.  There's the fact that he's a bit of a cocky smartass.  He is well aware of his abilities to the point of always tackling every enemy head-on.  The important part of that last one is it's a telling moment when he does NOT charge head-in on an enemy.  He has a level head - against Eggman he will make jokes in the guy's face - against Dark Gaia he took a moment to stop and observe before taking action, and then later, after having the power sucked out of him, even gave up for a moment (telling Chip to run).  The fact that we so rarely see Sonic like this was an important story device to tell us just how powerful Dark Gaia was and set the stage for the showdown.

Edited January 20, 2013 by JezMM

[Emmett L. Brown]

At this point, I just have one question to ask: what negative characteristics does Sonic actually have? I'm actually quite interested in hearing them...

He's trusting to the point of naivety, incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions, easy to goad into unwittingly helping the villain, fickle, impatient, and overconfident.

 

See, he ain't so perfect.

[Vertekins]

Part 2; What can be done to make Sonic a "Less perfect" character.

 

Make use of the negative aspects of his personality that are stated in profiles or fleetingly shown in the games. 

 

Simply innit?

 

The Short Temper

 

You can bet your buck that the majority of Sonic's profiles in instruction manuals absolutely love getting across this aspect of his personality. Here's just a handful that state it.

 

 

Geez, that is a pretty prominent personality trait you'd think. Pity you hardly ever see it in action.

 

Sonic Adventure, IMO, depicted Sonic as being frequently frustrated which when you think about it makes a lot of sense. How many times does Eggman effortlessly steal the Emeralds that he's found and is trying to keep away from Chaos? It not just that that makes him irritable; Forced into the bodyguard role for Amy and the bird, seeing her get kidnapped, missing Eggman after jumping off of the Egg Carrier in a bid to catch him then faceplanting... He even appears to throw a very brief tantrum

 

 

He even regards Chaos' destruction of Station Square with quite a bit of anger.

 

And then this trait takes a massive backseat in favor of depicting a character who seems very much unperturbed by a lot of things you'd expect him to be at least a bit annoyed by. Such as;

 

- Amy's propensity for chasing and glomping him

- Eggman tearing apart the world in Unleashed

- Eggman kidnapping Elise time and time again in '06

- Shadow sullying his good name in SA2

 

For a series that has an egocentric mad scientist who delights in sytematically taking away the liberties of people and by effect sticking up two fingers to the notion of freedom which Sonic is said to despise (He is consistently stated to hate oppression), you'd think that Eggman's very aims pushes Sonic's buttons on mere principle. This is almost never shown and therefore you almost never see Sonic exhibit a more passionate reason to stop Eggman other than "It's fun"

 

The impulsiveness.

 

Leaping before looking. Going by impulses rather than rationality. Now whilst this has been shown to be a near-fatal flaw when Eggman exploits it and nearly kills him for good, the negativity of this trait isn't elaborated on anything more than fleetingly except for in Unleashed in which Sonic was to blame for his Werehog transformations and the world being split and even then we have a tremendously missed opportunity as Sonic doesn't even commiserate his actions that led to both things happening.

 

Here, only Amy pulls him up for attacking Eggman whilst he had her as a hostage

 

 

Knuckles and Tails don't even pull up Sonic and state how shortsighted it was to lay into Eggman like that without any kind of regard for Amy's safety. He seemed to care more about catching Jet's cube-thing than catching Amy.

 

His greediness.

 

Yeah, very rarely shown trait that actually only shown a tiny handful of times such as in this in which he's very willing to fight hard for that last meat bun;

 

 

and in the Black Knight opening in which he's more concerned about catching his food and eating it than really taking the situation all that seriously (Not that he really needed to...) then saying a big "Noooo!" when he drops the second one and doesn't have a chance at getting it before Merlina teleports them away.

 

I doubt that bringing up how ravenous Sonic apparently is in Purple Frenzy form would mean that much considering gameplay and story segregation and the debate about how intact Sonic's mind actually is in that form considering he acts little more than a mindless monster that eats objects with a single-minded ferocity.

 

Extreme obstinance to his own personal views

 

He certainly wastes no time when it came to attacking Merlina when she revealed her plans and her one-sided sadness. In fact, he looks like he's ready to cleave her in two;

 

 

This feels like an extreme course of action to take considering that if anything, Merlina was more misguided than truly malevolent. He's also not all that willing to admit when something is difficult for him as indicated by Team Sonic's ending in Heroes in which Knuckles goads him into admitting that this time Eggman came close and that if it wasn't for him and Tails assisting him, he "Wouldn't have stood a chance". Whilst Sonic admits this to a degree ("Hmmm, well Maybe you're right Knuckles"), it's still only a "maybe" and he's still quite obstinate.

 

Bad loser

 

 

He hates being deprived of the win or getting things wrong. Good examples of this include Jet besting him in the Ex Grand World Prix despite the cheating and blaming his initially poor swordsmanship on Caliburn i.e If you keep getting hit by Arthur in the Misty Lake boss battle, Sonic will state in bad temper who he wishes he didn't have to use "This dang sword" and when Caliburn states that he wished for more time to train him, Sonic states that he wishes for a better sword.

 

All of these traits make Sonic as less perfect character if actually used more. I really do wish that they were because I would love to see Sonic become a much more rounded character who can show negative personality traits as well as positive ones.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

He's trusting to the point of naivety, incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions, easy to goad into unwittingly helping the villain, fickle, impatient, and overconfident.

 

See, he ain't so perfect.

 

He doesn't use them very much, or it gets overshadowed by his positive traits, so it's not surprising that no one thinks these thing could actually be flaws. Just saying.

[Emmett L. Brown]

He doesn't use them very much, or it gets overshadowed by his positive traits, so it's not surprising that no one thinks these thing could actually be flaws. Just saying.

 

You kidding? In Sonic Adventure he winds up giving Eggman half the Chaos Emeralds by being goaded and then easily tricked. In the same game his impatience and aggression makes him ignore Tikal's vision in favour of chasing Eggman. In SA2, he's too hell-bent on stopping Eggman and getting even with Shadow that he doesn't even care where the black hedgehog came from, so Amy winds up having to connect to Shadow to get him to save hte world.

 

In both Storybook games Sonic's naivety let the villains accomplish everything they want until the very end, and Sonic is fooled by both pointy-eared ladies.

 

His overconfidence almost got Sonic killed in Adventure 2, and got him turned into a Werehog in Unleashed. Even most recently in Sonic Generations, he got stomped flat when not once but twice he tried to attack the Time Eater head-on.

[Nepenthe]

Eh, I wouldn't really give Sonic the flaw of greed, because the overwhelming amount of his personality traits and his acts onto others give him more than enough leeway to salivate over a snack once in awhile. Plus, I don't think it's something you could do much far sans using it as a small gag every now and again unless you suddenly wanted to make him gluttonous, but I thought we were trying to make him less like a Shonen hero. =P

[Tornado]

He's trusting to the point of naivety, incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions, easy to goad into unwittingly helping the villain, fickle, impatient, and overconfident.

Well, when you list out his flaws that way...

He sounds almost exactly like Goku.

Edit to add:

Edited January 20, 2013 by Tornado

[Vertekins]

Eh, I wouldn't really give Sonic the flaw of greed, because the overwhelming amount of his personality traits and his acts onto others give him more than enough leeway to salivate over a snack once in awhile. Plus, I don't think it's something you could do much far sans using it as a small gag every now and again unless you suddenly wanted to make him gluttonous, but I thought we were trying to make him less like a Shonen hero. =P

 

Agreed

 

I'm all for his propensity for eating to be a gag rather than epitomize the flaw of greed. It IS seemingly a defining trait for the typical Shonen hero to be a big eater but then I'd put it down to Sonic doing it for calorific intake in order to maintain that speed.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You kidding? In Sonic Adventure he winds up giving Eggman half the Chaos Emeralds by being goaded and then easily tricked. In the same game his impatience and aggression makes him ignore Tikal's vision in favour of chasing Eggman. In SA2, he's too hell-bent on stopping Eggman and getting even with Shadow that he doesn't even care where the black hedgehog came from, so Amy winds up having to connect to Shadow to get him to save hte world.

 

In both Storybook games Sonic's naivety let the villains accomplish everything they want until the very end, and Sonic is fooled by both pointy-eared ladies.

 

His overconfidence almost got Sonic killed in Adventure 2, and got him turned into a Werehog in Unleashed. Even most recently in Sonic Generations, he got stomped flat when not once but twice he tried to attack the Time Eater head-on.

The extent of my Sonic knowledge and attention to detail is rather limited, so I might have missed that. And I already mentioned my thoughts on Unleashed.

[Kuzu]

Look, we can all list Sonic's flaws till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, they're going to be severely outweighed by his overwhelmingly positive traits; his flaws cause no real conflict and if they do, they're forgotten about as quickly as they come. Nobody questions him, and when they do they're almost always wrong, he never really has to overcome any internal conflict because the story is mostly one-sided in Sonic's favor.

[Tornado]

Nobody questions him, and when they do they're almost always wrong

Poor, poor Knuckles.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Tornado

[Nepenthe]

Agreed

 

I'm all for his propensity for eating to be a gag rather than epitomize the flaw of greed. It IS seemingly a defining trait for the typical Shonen hero to be a big eater but then I'd put it down to Sonic doing it for calorific intake in order to maintain that speed.

 

Well, most shonen heroes who have that type of appetite are already overgrown hummingbirds anyway since they're just as powerful if not far more than Sonic is, outputting massive attacks with the comparable energy of a red dwarf on the regular. Like, I fully believe within my heart of hearts that if Goku does not eat as much as he does during a meal every single day, he'd keel over in less than a week.

[JezMM]

I never really saw Sonic as a glutton, more as someone who appreciates good food - from chilli dogs to local delicacies like meat buns.

[Komodin]

Look, we can all list Sonic's flaws till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, they're going to be severely outweighed by his overwhelmingly positive traits; his flaws cause no real conflict and if they do, they're forgotten about as quickly as they come. Nobody questions him, and when they do they're almost always wrong, he never really has to overcome any internal conflict because the story is mostly one-sided in Sonic's favor.

 

Oh, come now, man. If we're gonna be this pointlessly defeatist towards a possible route of discussion, then what's the point of participating in this thread?