Super Sonic or Hyper Sonic?

[Ebby]

Hyper Sonic is really pointless. I don't need a seizure inducing version of Super Sonic with stars. Especially considering how terrible Super Sonic was in Generations. Sure you can fly though the level at ten rings per second but that's the fun in that when you don't get that many rings? Though this mod of Hyper Sonic in Generations is fun to watch.

 

Edited February 21, 2013 by eboni

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Ya JoeTE does good work

[NocturnalTwilight]

My thoughts exactly. I actually wonder if Super Silver's even canon anymore considering his lack of appearances and it existing for no reason other than "so he can fight Solaris".

 

 

My personal opinion, but I think SEGA has made Silver a side character for now, until they can figure out how to (I guess you could say) redeem him and his gameplay.

 

Nah, there's only one version of those. There's no Hyper Shadow, Hyper Silver, Hyper Blaze, etc you get the point. 

 

BUT there is Hyper Knuckles. 

 

 

On topic, though. I would have to pick Super Sonic.

[Aquaslash]

So yes, as cool as he was in the Genesis era, he's not an element I would like to see return.  Diogenes also made a point about super forms for other characters that I'd have to agree with.  Every character having a super form would probably be incredibly pointless and annoying and ruin whatever appeal and freshness that the Super forms might still have. 

 

Since this is brought up, I'm going to say that I somewhat disagree with this.  First thing's first, and that's that super mode needs to STOP having plot significance.  It should basically have as much merit on the plot as Rings themselves and be purely a gameplay mechanic.  The "extra bosses" are ok and all, but I think the Sonic 2/3/Colors approach was more fitting, where super in the final boss had to be earned, or even cheated, and the focus is on Sonic's normal abilities being tested to their maximum.

 

Following that logic, since we're treating super mode as a reward instead of a requirement, limiting it to Sonic is pure horse manure.  I'd limit it's use to the more "badass" characters in the series.  Sure, everyone can be a badass in their own merits, but we're looking at the more elite characters here.  Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, and Blaze are all givens.  By this point, Tails has more than earned it, and Metal Sonic should have had a legit one DECADES ago.  I'd be inclined to allow Jet one, provided he gave a damn about the concept; and though I think Espio is worthy, he seems like the kind that would reject it, for whatever reason. 

 

In the name of fairness, those that aren't capable of wielding the power yet wouldn't even be able to enter the Special Zone.  It's a waste of time for the player and the character otherwise.

[Diogenes]

Since this is brought up, I'm going to say that I somewhat disagree with this.  First thing's first, and that's that super mode needs to STOP having plot significance.  It should basically have as much merit on the plot as Rings themselves and be purely a gameplay mechanic.  The "extra bosses" are ok and all, but I think the Sonic 2/3/Colors approach was more fitting, where super in the final boss had to be earned, or even cheated, and the focus is on Sonic's normal abilities being tested to their maximum.

I'm not opposed to having non-Super final bosses, but cutting Super Sonic out of the plot entirely is cutting a pretty significant chunk out of the series' lore. And do we cut the emeralds as well, since in the battle between good and evil, they suddenly and inexplicably no longer have a purpose on the side of good?

Following that logic, since we're treating super mode as a reward instead of a requirement, limiting it to Sonic is pure horse manure.  I'd limit it's use to the more "badass" characters in the series.

Ffffhaha, now this is some horseshit. If it's just a reward, no plot attachment, then what does being "badass" have to do with anything? Super Big, Super Charmy, Super Marine, why not?

[Tara]

Since this is brought up, I'm going to say that I somewhat disagree with this.  First thing's first, and that's that super mode needs to STOP having plot significance.  It should basically have as much merit on the plot as Rings themselves and be purely a gameplay mechanic.  The "extra bosses" are ok and all, but I think the Sonic 2/3/Colors approach was more fitting, where super in the final boss had to be earned, or even cheated, and the focus is on Sonic's normal abilities being tested to their maximum.

 

Following that logic, since we're treating super mode as a reward instead of a requirement, limiting it to Sonic is pure horse manure.  I'd limit it's use to the more "badass" characters in the series.  Sure, everyone can be a badass in their own merits, but we're looking at the more elite characters here.  Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, and Blaze are all givens.  By this point, Tails has more than earned it, and Metal Sonic should have had a legit one DECADES ago.  I'd be inclined to allow Jet one, provided he gave a damn about the concept; and though I think Espio is worthy, he seems like the kind that would reject it, for whatever reason. 

 

In the name of fairness, those that aren't capable of wielding the power yet wouldn't even be able to enter the Special Zone.  It's a waste of time for the player and the character otherwise.

I somewhat agree to your first paragraph.  I agree in that maybe for right now they should sort of let it fall under the radar until they think of something fresh to do with it, but to completely erase it from the plot would be to take out a significant part of the mythos of the Sonic universe.  It definitely shouldn't be the primary plot every Sonic game, but it shouldn't be completely omitted from having any sort of bearing on the plot.

 

With that said, if it were just left as a post-level reward, then why limit what characters can and can't use it?  If it were just a reward, then yes, I wouldn't care which characters could or couldn't use it as long as it's clearly non-canonical.  But as a plot element. that's one reason why Dragon Ball Z and the whole "Super Saiyan" speal got tiring really fast.  Super Saiyan Goku:  Cool.  Super Saiyan 2 Goku: Eh, okay.  Super Saiyan Goku 3: COME ON SERIOUSLY?  It was only made worse by the fact that pretty much EVERYONE was a Super Saiyan.  Too much of a good thing is a bad thing and Super forms are no exception.

[Aquaslash]

I'm not opposed to having non-Super final bosses, but cutting Super Sonic out of the plot entirely is cutting a pretty significant chunk out of the series' lore. And do we cut the emeralds as well, since in the battle between good and evil, they suddenly and inexplicably no longer have a purpose on the side of good?

Ffffhaha, now this is some horseshit. If it's just a reward, no plot attachment, then what does being "badass" have to do with anything? Super Big, Super Charmy, Super Marine, why not?

 

 

Haha, I like how you both said the same thing.  Great minds something or other.  The overarching (for lack of a better term) plot always seems to be "robotnik's trapping your friends and using the emeralds to try to rule the world.  Save your friends, take the jewels back, and kick his ass".  The Chaos Emeralds themselves get all the glory, the totally given end result, not so much.  While the gold mode is the result of the player getting the emeralds, It would still be possible to beat the game without doing so, and I am so going completely old school on this, haha.  I don't even consider myself a "classic purist" in the slightest, I guess I'm just not fond of the whole "only super in the final boss" and all the shenanigans it causes.

 

As for the second part, I had a reason for that when I was thinking of it.  Something like "the power of the emeralds is so great that everyone can't control it" or some slag like that, but frag it.  If Eggman's mechas can use it, then hang the lampshade on that noise.  I'm sure there's some fun to be had on letting it go the way of X-Factor/Pandora/S-Monitor.  I've always wanted this series to quit taking itself so seriously anyway.

 

I think the overall point I may be subconsciously making is simplicity FTW

Edited March 24, 2013 by Kyoryu Aqua

[Tani Coyote]

As has been said, Hyper's just a stronger Super Sonic and basically cheapens the concept some. We don't need Sonic being compared to DBZ anymore than he already is, and keeping "the next level beyond" type transformations out of things is the best way to avoid that. Heck, if Super Sonic can't get stronger, maybe he'll actually have an enemy one day he needs to use his head to beat, rather than just smash it and see what happens.

[Tara]

Haha, I like how you both said the same thing.  Great minds something or other. 

People who agree with each other on a point sharing similar points?!  WHAT WITCHCRAFT IS THIS?!

 

The overarching (for lack of a better term) plot always seems to be "robotnik's trapping your friends and using the emeralds to try to rule the world.  Save your friends, take the jewels back, and kick his ass".  The Chaos Emeralds themselves get all the glory, the totally given end result, not so much.  While the gold mode is the result of the player getting the emeralds, It would still be possible to beat the game without doing so, and I am so going completely old school on this, haha.  I don't even consider myself a "classic purist" in the slightest, I guess I'm just not fond of the whole "only super in the final boss" and all the shenanigans it causes.

I never said that the Emeralds had to be reserved for the final boss.  That's what I liked about Colors.  They could be used anywhere... ironically enough, except for the final boss fight.  Or any boss fight for that matter.  I'd like to think of their relevance to the plot more along the lines of the Time Stones from Sonic CD.  The plot revolves around Robotnik traveling time and as such you have to collect the Time Stones to stop him, but they're not necessarily a requirement.  In Colors, the Chaos Emeralds aren't even mentioned in the game's story, which is fine for awhile, but not the way to go for every Sonic game to follow.  Even the classics made them an active part of the story for some, but not all, the games.  In Sonic 3 and Knuckles, you're trying to retrieve all the Chaos Emeralds while trying to keep Knuckles from stealing them from you or something like that.  Sonic Spinball made them a core objective, though I don't think you actually go Super Sonic at any point of the game.  So long story short, you don't have to make them the big, final boss killing mechanism to give them importance to the plot.

 

As for the second part, I had a reason for that when I was thinking of it.  Something like "the power of the emeralds is so great that everyone can't control it" or some slag like that, but frag it.  If Eggman's mechas can use it, then hang the lampshade on that noise.  I'm sure there's some fun to be had on letting it go the way of X-Factor/Pandora/S-Monitor.  I've always wanted this series to quit taking itself so seriously anyway.

But if it's non-canon why does it matter?  It's like Peach beating Mario to a pulp in Smash Bros.  It probably wouldn't happen in any Mario game, but it's fun.  Also, machines have different functions and limitations than living things, so it would still make sense for some characters to be unable to control the energy while others can't and still have the egg mechas perfectly capable of controlling it.  Humans can die from a gunshot wound, but not all machines break or instantly decompose because of a single bullet.

 

Plus, think of it like this:  Maybe it's not about what characters can and can't go Super Sonic as much as which characters should or should not.  Not just because Super Cream would be terrible, but also because they have a particular set of skills that makes them the best candidate to harness their energy.  So yes, Amy has all the powers of the Chaos Emeralds, but no training in the field of combat or athleticism.  She could pick up cars if she wanted, but if she can't throw straight, she won't be able to throw any straighter with an increased stamina and muscle.

 

To further my point on that, in SA1, Sonic is still able to use the Chaos Emeralds because although Chaos was harnessing their energy, he was only making use of the "negative" energy.  That leads me to believe that Sonic's ability to use them is stemmed not just from him being the special protagonist, but also that he has traits and skills that allow him to use the Emeralds to their full extent on both the "positive" and "negative" power of the Emeralds.  Given that Chaos was currently using their negative energy, Sonic needed a way to bring out the positive energy to its fullest potential.  Being that he is the character most full of positivity and determination, it only made sense that he, not Tails nor Amy nor Knuckles, would be the most suited to use them.

 

As another example, a constant theme in SA2 is polar opposites.  Sonic is the polar opposite of Shadow, and as such, they were both able to use their Super forms because they occupy two completely different extremes.  Sonic the light, Shadow the dark, etc. etc. etc.  Tails, Cream, or whomever else might be able to harness their energy, but that doesn't mean they're able to harness them efficiently and effectively.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that "capacity" is not the same as "capability."  Someone might have the muscles to inflict a serious punch, but if he doesn't know the first thing about combat or the proper way to assault someone (perhaps I should rephrase that?) then the punch probably isn't going to be that much more powerful.  The reason Sonic is seen is the primary character to go super is because he's the one who they believe would use them the most effectively.  You could argue there's strength in numbers, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and other idioms like that.

 

We don't need Sonic being compared to DBZ anymore than he already is, and keeping "the next level beyond" type transformations out of things is the best way to avoid that.

The only reason I compared it to DBZ in my previous post was because it was the only franchise I can think of where the characters are constantly changing form to the point where even the show stops treating it like it's something special after awhile.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Akito

[Tani Coyote]

The only reason I compared it to DBZ in my previous post was because it was the only franchise I can think of where the characters are constantly changing form to the point where even the show stops treating it like it's something special after awhile.

 

Actually I was talking about a different post, but overall it's the same general idea; when you use something too much it loses its appeal. When you eat your favorite dish for breakfast, lunch and dinner several days in a row you will grow to hate it. When you make use of too much blood in a horror film, it becomes tasteless. And when you make use of Super Sonic, he loses his dramatic flare really quick. Colors was refreshing not only because Eggman was once again the final villain, but also because Sonic didn't have to rip off Dragon Ball to beat him. He was defeating him entirely on his own merits, rather than requiring some mystical gems to do so; to me, I think it strengthens Sonic's character that he's able to succeed on his own without anyone or anything else's help.

[Shikushi]

I say Super Sonic, for these reasons:

 

1. I think Super Sonic looks MUCH cooler than Hyper Sonic (Especially in Unleashed)

2. I'm always too lazy to get Hyper Sonic

3. I wouldn't say Hyper Sonic is that big of a step up from Super Sonic.

[Sparky]

Hyper Sonic is just Super Sonic using the Master Emerald to enduce a second Super transformation.