The Many Styles of Sonic the Hedgehog: Round 2 - World Design

[Celestia]

I think the reason I'm more of a fan of #3 than the other two is because I'm more entertained by stories (in anything, not just Sonic, for the record) that are more focused on character interaction and characterization. Lost World has one of my favourite stories in the series because of this approach. I'd love to see more of this, particularly if they included other characters.

 

That being said, there's definitely aspects of 1 and 2 that would fit well with the current writing style. Giving context to levels like the "Grand Adventure" days would be nice, and using gameplay to tell a bit of story could be really cool. Just look at Generations; I remember someone here on SSMB suggesting that Eggman's influence could have been made clear in each level to make it feel more like his time shenanigans were actually doing something. Stuff like that would bring even more life to this series, I think.

 

On a little side note, I hope Ken and Warren do (more?) research into the series. They seem to genuinely care for the characters, at least. If SEGA let them, I'd like them to incorporate more stuff from the older games in terms of lore...mostly because I miss the ancient history Echidna stuff they had going on in Adventure and to a lesser extent SA2.

[nintega137]

I usually don't pick between story and characterization, but I do like lost world story. Then again it was seriously flawed in my opinion but still I enjoyed it. I think a good combination between story and characterization alongside a coherent narrative that flows with the gameplay itself could actually be something really cool from a story perspective. That's kind of what I was hoping for in sonic generations, oh well.  

[Dizcrybe]

Reading through this topic, I think I'd classify myself as a #3 type person. I don't really care much about plots in Sonic games, but I do like watching the characters interact. I think Lost World did a great job with this (for the most part); the cutscenes were some of the most entertaining cutscenes a Sonic game has ever had.

 

That being said, I wouldn't mind a mix of #1 and #3, but I won't mourn if #1 is absent from a story.

[Jack / Joker]

Oh man, I totally forgot about this topic.

I should like, update it.

...

*WE ARE EXPERIENCING TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES*

Gimmie a sec, guys.

[azoo]

Since Joker's gonna make the subject switch over soon, I'm gonna go ahead and post my views on the story styles.

 

#1 (Grand Adventure) is my favorite by far, since the idea is that plot carries the story across and the characters all have their interactions and moments based on the situations happening throughout the game. It can take many emotional turns, have it's funny moments, it's serious moments, sad, awesome and heartwarming ones, and many other potential feelings you experience as you go, watching the stories unfold, plots thicken and characters develop. Adventure delivered this and so did Unleashed (albeit Unleashed felt like it's middle was really empty), and SA2 did a decent job at it as well.

 

#2 (Classic) is good for what it is. It doesn't need narrative or script, but rather actions and reactions to describe the situation. I don't think it's really needed in a big Sonic game (that kind of minimalism doesn't fit a 3D Sonic like it would a 3D Mario to say), but I think it fits the '2D Sonic' mold perfectly, since its been proven to work so well there.

 

#3 (Character-driven) is my least favorite, since it implies that you don't need much of a story at all; just rely on characters interacting and goofing off, having no motivation other than "stomp those bad guys" when playing through the game. Saying to rely on those character interactions so much sounds good in print but it really just makes the whole story flat and uninteresting, and makes both it (and somewhat the game) feel like a big waste of time, which is how I've felt about the past three games or so.

 

I believe the 'Grand Adventure' premise works with the Sonic series because it manages to fit in both character interaction / development, plot progression / expansion, and interesting new things all at once. It makes the whole thing feel like a big journey, with stakes and emotions running high, and buildup for a big payoff. It's just so satisfying when done right.

[Kuzu]

#3 (Character-driven) is my least favorite, since it implies that you don't need much of a story at all; just rely on characters interacting and goofing off, having no motivation other than "stomp those bad guys" when playing through the game. Saying to rely on those character interactions so much sounds good in print but it really just makes the whole story flat and uninteresting, and makes both it (and somewhat the game) feel like a big waste of time, which is how I've felt about the past three games or so.

 

I just wanna comment on this because I don't feel its a fair assessment;Character-driven plots aren't ones devoid of any sort of story, nor do they imply that the characters have no complex motivations. All it implies is that the character's personalities and dynamics carry the plot forward, with the crux of the story being on building said character. 

[Nepenthe]

To be fair, two out of the three games in that style fit those parameters to an absolute T, and one continues to be defended as good storytelling on top of it.

[Kuzu]

To be fair, two out of the three games in that style fit those parameters to an absolute T, and one continues to be defended as good storytelling on top of it.

 

I never said the current games are doing it well. XP

[Diogenes]

#3 (Character-driven) is my least favorite, since it implies that you don't need much of a story at all; just rely on characters interacting and goofing off, having no motivation other than "stomp those bad guys" when playing through the game. Saying to rely on those character interactions so much sounds good in print but it really just makes the whole story flat and uninteresting, and makes both it (and somewhat the game) feel like a big waste of time, which is how I've felt about the past three games or so.

Oh come on. This is like if I said any "grand adventure" story was just a dumb Michael Bay explosionfest.

[Nepenthe]

Once again, I'm not sure how that is not indicative of both Colors and Generations storytelling: amusing character interactions at the expense of plot. And again, Colors actually gets praised for this set-up because the character interactions are entertaining.

[Diogenes]

They weren't character-driven. They weren't driven at all. Except off a cliff, if that counts.

[Kuzu]

I was speaking mostly in a general sense, if we're speaking about Colors and Generations specifically, then yea, they kinda suck at what they were doing.

[azoo]

I admit I was overgeneralizing, but I was also mostly speaking in reference to how it's been done for the past games that have used that story style, and how one of them is being touted as great storytelling, as Nepenthe said.

 

Besides that, Yakuzu's right:

 

I just wanna comment on this because I don't feel its a fair assessment;Character-driven plots aren't ones devoid of any sort of story, nor do they imply that the characters have no complex motivations. All it implies is that the character's personalities and dynamics carry the plot forward, with the crux of the story being on building said character. 

 

 This can be them at their best but it hasn't been proven to work so well yet. Even if done well though it'd probably still feel a bit more like an enlongated episode to a Saturday morning cartoon, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about that (I don't really like the idea).

 

They weren't character-driven. They weren't driven at all. Except off a cliff, if that counts.

 

Generations I might maybe let slide, but you can't tell me Colors wasn't "character-driven".

[Vertekins]

What? So Tails' actions in taking the bullet for Sonic when Eggman aims at him with his weapon wasn't character-driven? Sonic punting Tails into the elevator upon being faced by the Egg Nega Wisp wasn't character-driven? I'm not one to really defend Colours' story because it has it's priorities wrong and fails to monopolize on tantalizing plot points but things that happen in it come to fruition as a result of character action.

[Kuzu]

Yea, Colors is very much character driven, otherwise they wouldn't try to waste our time making us laugh. Basically, Colors is Lost World's inferior little brother, and still gets touted as "good" storytelling.

[Diogenes]

Generations I might maybe let slide, but you can't tell me Colors wasn't "character-driven".

Colors isn't character driven because it isn't driven; 9 times out of 10 the characters are just standing around cracking jokes and nothing of worth happens, character-prompted or otherwise. This is, remember, the game where Eggman's plan is wrecked by pure chance. The only scene that I would call character driven is when Tails takes the mind control bullet for Sonic, but even that peters out like a wet fart before anything worthwhile happens.

 

SLoW's story, on the other hand, gets thrown off its expected rails by Sonic's cockiness and impatience, and the rest of the game is about the fallout and examination of that, as well as of Tails' reactions to Sonic and Eggman teaming up.

[azoo]

SLoW's story, on the other hand, gets thrown off its expected rails by Sonic's cockiness and impatience, and the rest of the game is about the fallout and examination of that, as well as of Tails' reactions to Sonic and Eggman teaming up.

 

But even that doesn't go far.

 

Nothing about anything is explained or given much to any context, Sonic doesn't learn his lesson as much as he does apologize to Tails for something they both agreed to follow through with (trust Eggman), most issues (like Colors) are dropped very quickly like it was nothing, and there's no real payoff besides "we did it, we saved the day", just like Colors. :v 

[Jack / Joker]

(Feel free to continue discussing the story, guys )

 

Round 2: World Design

 

 

Mobius Earth Sonic's World sure is a place with furry animals in it. From game-to-game, that's about all it has in common with... itself. The varying styles are most prominent here than anywhere, to be honest, so let's get a look at our contenders!

 

Style 1: Classic (Sonic 1-2, Sonic CD, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Lost World, debatably Sonic Colors, somewhat downplayed in 3&K)

 

In these games, Sonic's world was about as lively, colorful and insane as you really get. Highways made out of trumpets? Check. Fortresses made out of sheer purple? Check. Checkerboard hills? Check (lol). These games made Sonic's world full of personality, and even a bit of mystery. I mean, where else would you find stuff like vague-ass Echidna statues? They're essentially like stuff out of Mario, except there's Eggman memorabilia everywhere. And you're on a drug trip. This is definitely my favorite because of CD alone. That game was like scenery porn for me.

 

Style 2: Photo-surrealism (arguably Sonic Adventure, Sonic Unleashed)

 

Whereas the Classics looked like Mario games on acid, these games were more like looking out the window while hepped out on goofballs. I mean, there's a fuckton of realism in these games, but it's undeniably silly enough to work effectively. They take Sonic and put him in our world, but add a few spices of Sonic-ness to our world as a result. Notable for having human NPCs which don't look out of place with pastel furballs, and a GODDAMN MAP. It only took 17 years, but we now have a map of Sonic's planet. I mean, they forgot to put Angel Island there, and it really it just looks like a map of the planet Earth from a distance, but I digress. A fan favorite, this one. Speaking of which!

 

Style 3: #nofunallowed (Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, SONIC THE HEDGEHOG (2006))

 

Let's be honest, no-one's voting for this style. Drab, edgy, unexciting, and so pseudo-real that the pseudo is barely even there any more. I'm even having a hard time talking about it. What's your favorite SA2 stage? Is it military base, military base, or freakin' military base? Goddammit, man. I don't know what to say let alone without sounding heavily biased. You guys are always better at saying things than me, so let's GO GO GO

 

*puke*

[Diogenes]

Nothing about anything is explained or given much to any context,

What does this have to do with being character driven or not?

Sonic doesn't learn his lesson

He learns not to be so impatient and cocky as it caused him to lose his friends and allies (even though they did make it through in the end).

as much as he does apologize to Tails for something they both agreed to follow through with (trust Eggman),

I didn't see Tails ever agree to it.

most issues (like Colors) are dropped very quickly like it was nothing,

Like what, specifically?

and there's no real payoff besides "we did it, we saved the day", just like Colors. :v

The climax is kind of weak, okay. What does this have to do with being character driven or not?

[Vertekins]

Photo surrealism. No questions asked.

 

I always personally felt that Sonic's art direction was at it's best when it combines a measure of fantasy with a measure of realism. Unleashed's art direction still stands-out as being absolutely stunning and it and Adventure epitomize just that, an adventure through their visual styles.

 

What I find particularly notable about this kind of design is how it lends itself well to a feeling of overall progression. Stages change as characters move. It's not like Lost World in which you're often presented with the same backdrops with sparse feeling as if you're coming-across refreshing new places visually in one stage.

 

That said, I really like "Classic" style because it exhibits...how do you say?...."Sonicky-ness"? And the vibrancy is pleasing. I particularly like Sonic CD's take on this tone in particular because palettes are used in amazing ways and the stage design is packed with detail.

 

I outright despise '06's and Shadow's take on Sonic's world. To me, it just doesn't work. It's ugly, sparse, rarely vibrant, muddy, dark and the characters themselves never particularly looked as if they quite belonged there.

[Indigo Rush]

I think I'm going to side with Dio on this one. Sonic Lost World's story wasn't exactly finished, but the one aspect they hit just about all the right notes on was the character development and interaction. Characters are introduced to new obstacles, their personalities and behaviors are fleshed out as a result, and yet everything returns to a nice status quo in the end. And please note that I'm not talking about the story as a whole, but simply the focus on how Sonic and Tails grow from this adventure. I feel like their trust got even stronger after this.

 

As for best art style... I'm mixed between classic and photo-surrealism. I think that if there were some way to mesh together the best of both of those aspects, you could create the definitive environmental Sonic experience.

[Jack / Joker]

Oh yeah, and before I forget:

 

Style 3: Sonic Heroes, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Lost World won the first round, about Story. By quite a landslide, too.

 

THIS IS HIGHLY IRREGULAR

[Diogenes]

For world style, well, bland realism is obviously right out. There are a few parts of SA2 and ShtH that aren't too bad, but otherwise it's a style that clashes incredibly with the series' characters (a bunch of brightly colored, big-eyed cartoon animals) and its big, bold, over-the-top nature. It's just a terrible fit that inevitably leaves something feeling out of place.

Unleashed's exaggerated realism is a better fit...but I still find it lacking. It's too grounded. It's still got problems with "yeah that sure is some brown you've got there" and with just not having a real stand-out look to it.

The classic look is really unique, though. Repeating angular patterns, weird dancing plantlife, bright colors, loop-de-loops, it's instantly recognizable as "Sonic". Green Hill is iconic, even moreso than Mario's grasslands opening levels.

[JAiRO]

For world style I vote #nofunallowed. Yeah, sue me. I love serious plots, as out of place as they may seem in Sonic games, and these worlds had tons of depth to them. 

[azoo]

Both world styles 1 and 2 mixed together are really the best ones.

 

Games like S3K, Adventure and Generations featured environments that shown Sonic's world fantastic and colorful enough, but detailed and realistic in a way that allows the more "classic" environments and "photo surrealistic" to coexist without any problems. They both seem like they fit in the same world with no real hassle.