Fullmetal Alchemist: Of Ruby Red Stones and Equivalent Exchange

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist was a manga created by Hiromu Arakawa, that was adapted as an anime in 2003...and in 2009. This also included a movie made for both anime. Also a factor for both series was it's English dub by Funimation, and animation done by Studio Bones. They've produced a lot of great titles such as Darker than Black, Soul Eater, Wolf's Rain and even Stan Lee's Heroman. The story followed two brothers, Edward and Alphonse Elric, who broke the laws of alchemy to attempt to brick their mother back to life. They created something, but it sure as hell wasn't what they wanted.They had quite the costly failure: Ed lost a leg, while Al lost his whole body! Ed sacrificed an arm to bind Al's soul to a suit of armour, so he at least still had his brother. Determined to return their bodies back to normal, the two seek out the most powerful and mysterious artifact in all of alchemy: the Philosopher's Stone.

 

"Wait. It was animated twice? Why?" Well, the original in 2003 had made a few changes to the manga's original story, before completely becoming it's own thing around halfway into its run. It overtook the manga, so Arakawa allowed Bones to drive the story on a different road. It's destination came about in the film Conqueror of Shamballa in two years time.

 

 

When Arakawa was close to finishing the original manga in 2009, Brotherhood came on the scene to strictly follow its story. It also got its own movie...two years later... that took place in-between the story, rather than following up the ending.

 

 

I'm sure most of you guys have already seen either, if not both series. However, to someone that hasn't seen them, are they worth recommending?

 

ABSOLUTELY. With a seriously solid storyline, a great cast of characters, incredible action and wealth of comedy, I can't think of any reason not to. Both the 2003 series and Brotherhood are deserving of every bit of praise they get in my book. I saw the latter first, as it was the original story to be told. Going back to the 2003 series just makes the entire ride more enjoyable, as you can see what extra bells and whistles were added to give it its own identity. As for those who already have seen this show... you guys can take a sec to reflect on either series if you want. It's meant to be a "Fullmetal Alchemist in general" kind of topic, after all.

 

I'll do just that with the 2003 series before I leave you to it.

 

 

Actually, this was my first introduction to the series, both directly and indirectly. (I first heard the 1st opening "Melissa" in the fangame Final Fantasy Sonic X Episode 5. When I literally had no clue what anime even was. Crazy.) I didn't really think I was ready to handle it, considering I got it mixed up with Full Metal Panic and was told it was an adult anime. Panic is still on my extensive backlog, but I saw the first 10 episodes dubbed on Funimation's Youtube channel. I distinctly remember not being able to see it for a good two months, and I eventually forgot where I was. With this, and the fact that so many of my friends recommended I watch Brotherhood first, I decided to do just that.

 

However, just last year I just so happened to be surfing the Anime section on Netflix, and I saw this series show up. And for a full month, I was marathoning the ever living crud out of it, dubbed and subbed. I did the same thing for the movie, and let me just say that it was a month well spent! As I said, it was great to see where Arakawa and Bones took the anime, and I definitely got a kick out of its more somber feeling.

 

But that's enough about me. You all have a good, strong pair of arms and hands. Sit down and use them.

 

 

 

seriously, how did it take me a good ten hours to write something so short

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chaos Warp]

I've always been interested in watching these 2 series. I started watching Brotherhood: while I've only seen episode 1 so far, I like it already. Very much looking forward to seeing more, and maybe I'll give the original a try too sometime. 

 

*leaves topic to avoid spoiler rush*

[-Mark-]

I like FullMetal Alchemist well enough, although I still think it's overrated, especially the original series (which is ironically the one that reached arguably greater critical acclaim). The first series was okay, but I found it to be quite messy in its execution, and the ending (for both the series and the follow-up movie) was ridiculous.

 

I do enjoy Brotherhood, although I still find that flawed in places. On the whole, the series has far too many characters, most of whom are given little to no development or backstory. I've watched through Brotherhood three times (twice in Japanese, once in English), and there are still a huge number of the tertiary cast whose names I can't even remember. I find Ed and Al (mostly Ed) are overly melodramatic to the point where it feels almost forced at times.

 

I think FMA primarily excels as an action series, really. The fight scenes are pretty damn awesome to watch (ironically something that would have had less impact in the original manga). The story itself isn't bad per se, but as I said, I still find it flawed in places. I felt it really dragged quite a bit around the middle, then suddenly the shit all hits the fan for the final day (which takes up about a third of the whole series ). Still, problems and the odd (admittedly sometimes quite large) plot or logic hole aside, it's still a highly enjoyable series.

 

I found both movies dull, personally. Oh, and Vic Mignogna's voice really gets on my tits, even if the dub is for the most part very competent. 

 

EDIT: Mustang is best character. Almost forgot to mention that.

[Soniman]

Conquerer of Shamballa really really sucks.

[KrazyBean]

Ah yes. One of my favourite anime of all time (specifically Brotherhood). Very enjoyable to watch.

[Tornado]

Beware not to profess any positive sentiment whatsoever about the 2003 series. Certainly don't say you prefer any aspect of it over Brotherhood or the manga. To do so makes you a real McAsshole, worthy of everyone's contempt and hatred. Probably unnattractive to the opposite sex as well.

[Solkia]

 

EDIT: Mustang is best character. Almost forgot to mention that.

 

>Not the man whose muscles have been in the Armstrong line for generations

 

 

Back in 2003, I really fucking hated this show for the same reason I hated Avatar the Last Airbender. No one would shut the fuck up about it.

 

Last year I marathoned Both, and holy shit, Brotherhood may just be my favorite Anime ever. I love the characters, the facial expressions, I love how short Ed i-

[-Mark-]

Conquerer of Shamballa really really sucks.

 

Eh, personally I thought both movies sucked. Sacred Star of Milos was just really dull to the point where I found it hard to pay attention and, by extension, hard to follow.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I've still yet to watch Sacred Star of Milos, but I've seen both series and liked them.

 

Although with the way 2003 ended, it left me at a bit of a WTF until the movie cleaned it up. Brotherhood is where it's really at tho, with a much more satisfying conclusion that didn't require a movie to do. Plus I liked how it expanded their characters outside of Amestris with characters from Xing. And what disappoints me with that series is the potential world-building they could've done, but what'cha gonna do?

[Gabz Girl]

Conquerer of Shamballa really really sucks.

This is why I still haven't seen Conqueror of Shamballa yet. D:

I watched the 2003 FMA about 2 years ago and absolutely loved it, but the ending was just...wtf Gainax worthy. In fact it's been so long since I saw the anime that the ending still feels like a blur to me. Because of this, I've been put off watching the movie since I heard it's not that great anyway and doesn't even put real closure on most of the stuff from the series. Sooner or later however, I have to force myself to see it just so I can get it out of the way and finally start watching Brotherhood. It's going to be fun comparing the two and to see which one ends up being the best!

Btw, I think FMA has one of the best dubs by Funimation. Travis Willingham as Mustang is just brilliant!

[Zaysho]

I love Fullmetal Alchemist. Either version. I enjoyed the 2003 series quite a bit, even though it is possibly one of the most depressing things I watched (kind of amazes me the same director went on to direct the hilarious Oh! Edo Rocket). However, I'd say Brotherhood/manga trumps it. What Brotherhood does best, IMO, is that the characters are way more fleshed out. I feel like, with the exception of very major characters, the first TV series doesn't go in-depth with them and they seem less interesting as a result. They're cool in their own right, but we don't get to spend as much time with them as we do the Elrics or Mustang, for example.

 

I love manga!Scar but I can't stand 2k3!Scar, for example. In the 2003 series, he keeps going on about his quest, and continues to basically be a pain in the ass the entire time. He never seems to realize there's more to the story nor seeks who's truly responsible for the atrocities for which he seeks revenge

(in this case Dante)

. Granted, the military are huge assholes, and he's somewhat sympathetic in that regard, but you know he'd have killed Ed had circumstances allowed him to do so. Manga!Scar does have his quest and hatred for the military still, but he comes to learn there's more than destruction and learns that the alchemists themselves are not the enemy, but Father himself, who has orchestrated massacres all over the world for his own gain. And I liked his relationship with Mei and how she was a huge part in mellowing him out and turning him into a full good guy. Or take Manga!Armstrong for example. The guy actually has a pretty tragic history, and we learn why he was never promoted and more about the type of person he is. Or Hawkeye and her father and where Mustang learned his Flame alchemy from.

 

There are things 2k3 did better though. I did like the mini-arc with Greed and how the decompression actually worked in favor of that (I absolutely love his final fight with Ed, and Greed is one of my favorite characters in either continuity because of it).

 

I could probably go on, but I'll be here all night, especially since I have dig through my crap memory to remember stuff from the 2003 series (since it's been years since I've seen it).

 

Only other thing I can say, is that the dub is incredible. Both series. Well cast, well written, overall just a stellar job. Can't say enough good things about that alone. And fun fact, my sister went to college with Colleen Clinkenbeard (Hawkeye).

[Killtank]

I can't even watch Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) now that I've seen Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. The latter is, without a doubt, my favorite anime of all time. Although the former did have some neat ideas concerning the Homunculi [i.e. making them more into tragic monsters], I still found the original adaptation to be lacking in quality. I did like how the Homunculi from that adaptation were essentially cast into the molds of loved ones whom alchemists had tried to resurrect. That was a great way to establish pathos, but the pattern after the seven deadly sins didn't make much sense in this regard since they were not originally intended to embody their respective sins. As much as I prefer the Homunculi in Brotherhood, I thought Sloth (2003) was a more clever interpretation of the sin of sloth. While the first adaptation is fine, I still think that the second is vastly superior. Brotherhood, is my mind, is great because its story is unrelenting, and the characters each have their own voice.

 

The first adaptation meandered too much before getting to where it needed to go, and the climax with Dante was wholly unsatisfying. Also, I didn't like how after all they went through they weren't able to obtain their original bodies and be reunited. FMA '03 is not self-contained, and that bugs me. I shouldn't have to watch a supplemental OVA in order to get closure. Finally, I think Winry and Mustang are better served in the second adaptation. Winry has more to do, and Roy's character is examined with his ambitions counterbalanced by a closer look at the relationship he has to his subordinates. I never got to see much camaraderie between Mustang and his men in FMA '03. I never understood why any of them, apart from Hues, would follow him into battle. Brotherhood took the time to flesh out his relationships with Hawkeye and the rest so that it was apparent why they were so loyal to him. The first adaptation hardly did that at all. In my mind Brotherhood is great because it takes its time to explicitly define most of its large without feeling as if was hindering the pace. Brotherhood is unrelenting right up until the very end; and those final moments are just so overwhelmingly cathartic. I could spend hours gushing over Brotherhood. I love it so very much, and it will never grow old after repeated viewings. 

[Blitz 'n Burst]

I vastly prefer the 2003 anime, horribly contrived ending notwithstanding. Maybe it's just the fact that going into Brotherhood I had already seen the original and knew what was going to happen, but it just never kept me interested in the same way the original did and I can't be bothered watching through everything up until the point where the split occurs.

[Sami]

I don't care what anyone says, I still vastly prefer the 2003 version. Felt less blatantly shounen.

[Kuzu]

As someone who marathonned the manga, original anime, and tuned in every week to Brotherhood. FMA is without a doubt one of the better anime in recent years. I was completely unaware of how hyped it was honestly, mainly because I wasn't much of an anime fan back in 2004.

 

 

Despite what Tornado says, the first series is in fact generally well liked. The only reason people give it flak is because apparently not being a 1:1 recreation of the manga is somehow heresy. In any case, its a lot more cynical than the manga/brotherhood but it still ultimately gives the message of equivalence exchange rather well, if in a bittersweet way. Its been a while since I actually watched it(5 years...holy shit) but I do remember it enough to know that I liked it.

 

And no, I don't care about the movie; it bored me and I wish to forget it exists.

 

Brotherhood is generally more well known due to being more recent and actually adapting the manga. It really doesn't hit its stride until about episode 17 or so when it starts diverging from the original series. As a result, it kind of slogs through plot points the first series did a far better job of adapting...and why did Father Cornelo turn into the Hulk? seriously, who thought of that shit.

 

As for the manga itself, I love it. Its not as cynically bittersweet as the first anime, and nor does it slog in the beginning like in Brotherhood. It manages to be funny without it taking away from the action and themes, and each character has their own motivation for their actions and get some degree of character development. 

 

I'd honestly say its one of the quintessential anime of this time. Its that good.

[Tornado]

Winry has more to do, and Roy's character is examined with his ambitions counterbalanced by a closer look at the relationship he has to his subordinates. I never got to see much camaraderie between Mustang and his men in FMA '03. I never understood why any of them, apart from Hues, would follow him into battle.

Because his subordinates were (Armstrong and Hawkeye excepting) by and large considerably less important to the proceedings (since Mustang himself did almost all of the heavy lifting in the original anime following Hughes' death). There's no real point to get into the backstories of characters who were largely incidental; and for those two who did play a bigger role, it is clear almost from the beginning even in the original anime that Hawkeye has feelings for him (and if he wasn't so damaged emotionally he would reciprocate); and Armstrong shares Mustang's sense of right and wrong almost exactly (albeit without Mustang's suicidal apathy because he doesn't have Mustang's baggage).

 

 

Similarly:

 

I love manga!Scar but I can't stand 2k3!Scar, for example. In the 2003 series, he keeps going on about his quest, and continues to basically be a pain in the ass the entire time. He never seems to realize there's more to the story nor seeks who's truly responsible for the atrocities for which he seeks revenge

(in this case Dante)

. Granted, the military are huge assholes, and he's somewhat sympathetic in that regard, but you know he'd have killed Ed had circumstances allowed him to do so.

 

This is another criticism that is based on how the 2003 show was different rather than why the 2003 show was deficient. Scar in the original show wasn't going after who was truly responsible for the Ishbal massacre and instead was just offing everyone he could find who was pseudo-important because he didn't know who was truly responsible until it was too late for him to do anything about it; as a result of basically being outmaneuvered by 3 other people running gambits at once.

He did have a shortlist of people that he knew were involved with particularly heinous actions (Mustang and Kimblee in particular), and he was prioritizing them; but the mess with the humonculi and Dante and etc was largely outside his scope. And because he wasn't the one who killed Winry's parents in the 2003 anime, he was never given the chance to have his major realization of his actions at once; instead having to drip feed himself to it. That's why his final act was instead to fall back and more or less repeat his brother's scheme, but did so with the knowledge (or at least hope) that Ed would be able use the Philosopher's Stone to get what Scar could never do (and his brother thought irrelevant).

[-Mark-]

I vastly prefer the 2003 anime, horribly contrived ending notwithstanding. Maybe it's just the fact that going into Brotherhood I had already seen the original and knew what was going to happen, but it just never kept me interested in the same way the original did and I can't be bothered watching through everything up until the point where the split occurs.

 

So basically, you're saying "I've seen the original and parts of Brotherhood that almost completely mirror the original", and judging the latter purely on that despite not having seen it beyond the parts you were already familiar with?

 

Sorry, but how exactly does that entitle you to a valid opinion on Brotherhood at all? You can't even fairly say "I dropped it because I didn't like what I saw of the first few episodes" - you dropped it because it was the same as what you'd already seen.

 

It's really not fair or right to say you 'vastly prefer' one when what little you've seen of the other is just a retread of the first. Hell, I'm not even saying you should watch the whole series, but at least watch a fair way into the new material before making a decision. To judge Brotherhood in the way you have is just outright unfair. It's basically saying "I prefer the original because I haven't seen Brotherhood", if all you've seen of the latter were parts that retold the former.

[Goldenlink64]

Funny, I actually just started watching the first FMA for the first time last week... well, technically, I saw a couple off episodes on Adult Swim as a kid, but I couldn't make much of it since I didn't see it from start to finish.

 

I tried watched online later but FMA subbed didn't really do it for me back then. Vic Migonogna does such a great job and fits Ed's voice perfectly. He, Louis Armstrong and Roy Mustang (especially towards his battle towards the end) made the dub for me easily.

After finishing FMAB for the 2nd time I decided to just buy the Boxset to FMA 2003 so I could finally watch it dubbed legally, so now I'm pretty much watching for the first time blind. I don't normally buy anime, but FMAB was amazing so I have a lot of faith in the original. I also hear it's a lot more dark than Brotherhood too and I really dig that kind of vibe from anime like NGE so I'm really hoping it holds up (just finished ep 9 yesterday).

I really loved Brotherhood though, just finished it again a couple weeks ago, that ending is still just as amazing the second time around. Like seriously, the first half of it is really good, but the second half, everything comes together so amazingly, I don't think there was a single episode that wasted any time.

It's so good and well put together, something you could only describe as...

oh.

 

It's sublime...

 

IS GODLIKE...

 

IZ GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!

[Sean]

(Post contains spoilers for the 2003 version)

FMA 2003 version is an amazing show, don't let the fact that it isn't a faithful adaptation put you off from watching it. I recall buying the first DVD volume on a whim, having only seen one of the middle episodes on Adult Swim and not really understanding what was going on. I didn't regret it, and it was one of those gateway series for me that led me to pursue other serious toned anime. The second half does have a different style of sorts from the first, but it never alientated me. I would definitely have changed some things, such as Rose whose story I really don't think needed the rape angle, but I enjoyed others and to me the story progressed as naturally as it could have, even before I realized just how different it was from the manga.

Something that stands out to me from the first anime is the fight between Ed and Envy, which is my single favorite battle in the entire series (in an anime that doesn't use flashy fight scenes as a selling point despite what the opening animations would have you believe). When Ed's beating the shit out of Envy who warps his face into other people's faces, seeing Ed's anguish made me nearly cry. And after all that crap that Envy puts him through, something about seeing his true form momentarily hit me pretty hard, right before skewering Ed and killing him. A lot of people say FMA 2003 had a crappy ending but I don't think it did?? Dante may not have been the humongous villain most people were probably hoping for, but what made me like her was how her goals reflected the series' themes of trying to obtain eternal life, play god, etc. Characters throughout the series, including the homonculi themselves, were running around like headless chickens trying to figure out this shit and here's this bitch who's manipulating everyone from behind the scenes and doing just that, having what everyone else wants yet is too greedy and just wants more.

I'm also one of those people who actually, gasp, liked Conqueror of Shamballa. It's a flawed movie for sure, but I think it's the ending that the series needed, particularly the two brothers' character arc. It's not a happy ending but it just drives the point even further home that Ed and Al could no longer go back home after all they've been through. The movie was definitely primarily about their bond, and the plot was secondary and as a result I felt it suffered, while the emotional aspect was as strong as ever. It's bittersweet as fuck, and I couldn't have imagined the 2003 version ending in any other way.

Having not really seen Brotherhood at length, even if I did I would hesitate to call it superior just because it is a more faithful adaptation. I haven't sat down and watched it from the beginning, so I've only gone out of my way to compare some key scenes. There are some stuff I definitely like better, such as Winry who seems like a way better character in general, but other elements I think are badly handled compared to the 2003 anime. For one, the confrontation with Cornello is complete garbage and laughable. Hughes's death in the first anime was also a million times better handled. I guess what I also don't like is how more action-oriented Brotherhood feels. Even though there are fights in the first show, they're sparse and hardly bombastic. Hughes's episode in Brotherhood feels like it's trying to play the action for all its worth.

Anyway, regardless of whichever version it is, FMA rules. I want to check out the manga someday and maybe even give Brotherhood a chance; what puts me off is the pretty bad pacing of the early episodes due to trying to quickly cover ground that the first anime already did. The manga wouldn't have that problem (and from what I hear, it doesn't have that idiotic Cornello transformation either).

As far as music goes, I haven't heard much of Brotherhood's (Again and Uso are both fucking amazing), but 2003 has some of my favorite anime theme songs ever. Ready Steady Go is practically the theme song of the series to me, and the final opening is simply the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V31rBAQrhQQ

[Candescence]

I'll say this - I liked both anime a lot, it's difficult to say what hasn't already been said. I will say that Brotherhood is a better adaptation, despite its fumbled early episodes, and the manga trumps both overall. The manga/Brotherhood's ending is tremendously more satisfying than the first anime's, though, especially on its own merits. But FMA in general is awesome.

 

 

Just an FYI, Hiromu Arakawa has moved on to new material, for those who don't know - 'Silver Spoon', a manga focused around a city teen who enrolls in an agricultural high school. Hilarity ensues. Apparently, it's great, too.

[Blitz 'n Burst]

So basically, you're saying "I've seen the original and parts of Brotherhood that almost completely mirror the original", and judging the latter purely on that despite not having seen it beyond the parts you were already familiar with?

 

Sorry, but how exactly does that entitle you to a valid opinion on Brotherhood at all? You can't even fairly say "I dropped it because I didn't like what I saw of the first few episodes" - you dropped it because it was the same as what you'd already seen.

 

It's really not fair or right to say you 'vastly prefer' one when what little you've seen of the other is just a retread of the first. Hell, I'm not even saying you should watch the whole series, but at least watch a fair way into the new material before making a decision. To judge Brotherhood in the way you have is just outright unfair. It's basically saying "I prefer the original because I haven't seen Brotherhood", if all you've seen of the latter were parts that retold the former.

I tried watching it and I didn't enjoy it, and I have no obligation to force myself to watch  it further just on the off chance I end up liking it.

[Kuzu]

I tried watching it and I didn't enjoy it, and I have no obligation to force myself to watch  it further just on the off chance I end up liking it.

 

You should at least watch the point when it diverges from the original series, because that's honestly where the story takes off.

 

 

 

 

Also, the homunculi are far better characters in the 2003 series, particularly Lust instead of just generic minibosses that the heroes fight, with the exception of Greed. Ironically, Greed is the first homunculi to die in the original series.

[Killtank]

Because his subordinates were (Armstrong and Hawkeye excepting) by and large considerably less important to the proceedings (since Mustang himself did almost all of the heavy lifting in the original anime following Hughes' death). There's no real point to get into the backstories of characters who were largely incidental; and for those two who did play a bigger role, it is clear almost from the beginning even in the original anime that Hawkeye has feelings for him (and if he wasn't so damaged emotionally he would reciprocate); and Armstrong shares Mustang's sense of right and wrong almost exactly (albeit without Mustang's suicidal apathy because he doesn't have Mustang's baggage).

 

 

Well, it isn't like I need to fully understand why Breda, Falman and Fuery, for instance, would want to follow Mustang, but I'm glad that Brotherhood at least made it clear as to why Mustang's subordinates would risk their lives to aid in his ambitions. They're largely flat characters and not important enough to warrant a closer examination as seen with round characters like Hues, Hawkeye and Armstrong. I understand why those three characters would want to follow him, but I wanted to see more. In my opinion, Brotherhood portrayed Mustang in a more positive light. We learn in the second adaptation that although he was out to achieve power for his own sake we are then made to understand that he would still not sacrifice his men like they were chess pieces. I can agree with that first anime did make it abundantly clear that Hawkeye had feelings for Mustang. I never said I didn't like FMA '03, but I see it as the inferior adaptation. I will admit that I did prefer how the first anime dealt with Leore and Nina, as Brotherhood almost glossed over them. 

[-Mark-]

I tried watching it and I didn't enjoy it, and I have no obligation to force myself to watch  it further just on the off chance I end up liking it.

 

No, and that's fine, but at the same time you have to realise that that means you are effectively forfeiting an opinion on it, because you haven't seen it. 

 

You can fairly say "I really enjoyed the original series", but you can't really say that you preferred it to Brotherhood properly. If all you've seen of Brotherhood was material that was covered in the original series, and it bored you 'because it was the same', then that's not the fault of the series. If you've not seen any of the material after the plot diverges from the original series, then you can't have an opinion on it, is all.

[Killtank]

No, and that's fine, but at the same time you have to realise that that means you are effectively forfeiting an opinion on it, because you haven't seen it. 

 

You can fairly say "I really enjoyed the original series", but you can't really say that you preferred it to Brotherhood properly. If all you've seen of Brotherhood was material that was covered in the original series, and it bored you 'because it was the same', then that's not the fault of the series. If you've not seen any of the material after the plot diverges from the original series, then you can't have an opinion on it, is all.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Mark. It's impossible to have much of an opinion on Brotherhood if you haven't even seen a fraction of what it has to offer. Sure, it is true that the first anime already tread the same ground, but the two series diverge into their own entities rather early. Brotherhood does begin in the same vein as FMA '03, but the two are very different. You just have to be patient and objective enough to see each to their conclusion. You're right, Mark. You can't have an opinion on anything you haven't seen. I mean, if you don't make it past Olivier or even the Xingese characters, then you forfeit the right to have much in the way of an opinion on Brotherhood.