Feminism (For fictional characters)

[nintega137]

I don't know why but a few days ago I started thinking about feminism for video game characters. I found a list of worst examples of one and of course they had some of the usual examples I see(bayonetta, lara croft, some final fantasy characters I don't care about, kairi from kh, just to name a few) but then there were these debates over the list in the comment section and it makes me wonder. What does classify as a good female character and what classifies as sexist?

 

I think one thing that some people may have problems with is the difference between good role model and good character. A good female character who is enjoyable to watch or think about may not necessarily be someone that women or anybody should really emulate right? So ultimately I'm starting this thread to ask everyone here, when it come to fictional female characters (video games, books, television shows, cartoons, movies, anything you can think of) what is your definitive example of a good female character.

 

Likewise I would also like to know your example of a bad female character and why. I'm doing this because I openly admit to not being some expert on feminism and what is best for all situations and what not so I would like to have other people's view on the subject. 

[Nepenthe]

A good female character is hard to describe because there can be a range of different types; they all don't have to confirm to some set standard because that goes against the nature of writing. You can have female characters that are realistically written and face the problems that women face in day-to-day living such as in dramas, strong but recognizable and affable archetypes like those found in Friendship is Magic, and I'd even contend you can have well-written, interesting characters based on themes, one of which being sex appeal (although considering there are massive problems with women and objectification in real life, writers going for a good female sexy archetype have to tread more lightly).

 

Minority characters in general tend to range from annoying to outright offensive to some degree when tokenism or appropriation is in play, or when they conform to stereotypes that are at the detriment of reason or good taste and social etiquette. You know how much I roll my eyes at battle-fit women that are wearing nothing at all, or women whose physical and verbal mannerisms make no sense outside of generic sex appeal in a universe or situation that doesn't call for them to twist like snakes in all manner of ways? Those are just some of the shits I have problems with.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

A good female character isn't any different from a good male character. Problem is that a lot of media is male-dominated, and as a result female characters tend to get overshadowed by them. And there's many different types, whether they're nerdy, regal, plain, tomboyish, girly, etc. The thing about what makes them decent is that they're not stereotyped compared to the male characters, that they have as many diverse interest as men, and a lot of times people don't seem to see that in media that doesn't cater to men...sometimes even then.

 

And then there's going the other extreme, making female characters more competent than men simply due to her gender. So basically men fumble around something that needs to be taken seriously, and mind you I'm not talking sitcoms here, and then we have a woman who does their job ten times better. The so called Mary Sue where a women is put into the cast and is given no flaws to balance her out. Something which is equally annoying on the other end of the fence.

 

The key here is to treat female characters like people, the same as you would male characters. Yes they have some unique interest in things men couldn't care about, or even understand, but it's the same way the other way around. Specific examples I'd pick are the Powerpuff Girls. Little kindergarden girls kicking ass, yet each of the three have unique differences. Even a decent example that being girly doesn't mean you can't be anything else, especially in the case of Bubbles.

[Mr Useful]

I'd honestly want to say Lilly from the Walking Dead(season 1 game). But not because she is poorly written or stereotyped, it's because she's "a psycho bitch", as one of the characters said about her. 

(spoiled because story spoilers and shit)

She tries to save her dad after he suffers from a heart attack with CPR in a meatlocker and then blames Kenny and Lee(if the player helps Kenny)for not wanting him to reanimate.

She bitches at Lee, Mark, and Kenny for bringing back Ben and his friend in the beginning of Chapter 2 but then calls Lee and Kenny out for leaving a girl to die while scavenging for supplies in the beginning of chapter 3

She kills Doug/Carley(depending on who you saved earlier on)

If you decide to let her stay with you after she killed, she runs off with the RV

Oh, and her Dad is a fuckface.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

A good female character is a good character who happens to be female. Same with "strong". A strong female is a strong character who happens to be female. I want them to be "people" not "strong female characters". A good character is someone who has both flaws in good parts to them and use them to make things better or to the adventgae. It can be someone whos really conforable with themselve.

 

Like: take Yoko for example. Even tho I dont like her outfit choice shes a good character who happens to be a girl. Plus shes "sexy" and she knows it and is proud. If a character can take pride on them self then I dont mind. so and so theres nothing wrong with females dressing sexy. it become a problem when thats there only purpose.

 

Or if a girl has the same traits use over and over. what soneone calls "personality female sydrme" such as "sweet until quick to anger" or "bratty" or "bitchy/mean". that one gets old really quick. I can name a bunch of characters who are like that. Theres many personalitys out there. Why does it have to be a "typcal girl ones"? I dont mind them being a mix but change it up. How about someone who wants to be a housewife but can also go on the field and be good like everyone else?

 

Design? I dont mind pink/purple/light white colors. But almost most females are those colors. Someone else point it out but it get annoying the way the use these "signifiers" like bows and eye lashes. What bothers me when I read this is that without them it look like the character is a male. So what there saying is "male is normal female isnt really". Im not trying to say i hate bows and girly stuff. where im from girly is everywhere. But i hate when they overdo it. The males are allow to have fun design and tell about there personality. why cant the girls?

 

I guess what Im saying is that I want a good characer who happen to be a girl. I hate when people say "to make a female character take a male character and switch the pronuns around". No because your insult women by saynig they cant be good unless they are manly. At the sametime I dont want them to be there just to be cute decorations. I want them to do things.

[Xtremer Sadiqachu]

what is your definitive example of a good female character.

 

Likewise I would also like to know your example of a bad female character and why. I'm doing this because I openly admit to not being some expert on feminism and what is best for all situations and what not so I would like to have other people's view on the subject. 

I think that's kind of a subjective topic to cover, what do you mean by BAD female character? What about a character would define them a bad character. Are you talking about villain characters or characters portrayed badly? Be a bit more specific.

 

How about someone who wants to be a housewife but can also go on the field and be good like everyone else?

Izumi Curtis, Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood

 

No because your insult women by saynig they cant be good unless they are manly.

Implying all male characters act "manly".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think that's kind of a subjective topic to cover, what do you mean by BAD female character? What about a character would define them a bad character. Are you talking about villain characters or characters portrayed badly? Be a bit more specific.

As in characters portrayed badly.

 

Implying all male characters act "manly".

Oh cut the strawman, will ya? That is not what she was saying, and you know it. She's talking about how female characters aren't seen as good characters, or even leading characters, unless they have masculine traits to go with them.

 

And considering how much of the culture has an emphasis on "Masculine = superior/good; Feminine = inferior/bad," however subtle or blatant, I think Sonikku has a point as far as the "manly" angle goes. And while it's not 100%, it is something worth pointing out.

[nintega137]

I think that's kind of a subjective topic to cover, what do you mean by BAD female character? What about a character would define them a bad character. Are you talking about villain characters or characters portrayed badly? Be a bit more specific.

 

That is what I meant. It is a subjective topic and I wanted to know everyone's own personal examples and opinions on the matter of what they believe would count as a good and a bad character. 

[Mollfie]

I'd honestly want to say Lilly from the Walking Dead(season 1 game). But not because she is poorly written or stereotyped, it's because she's "a psycho bitch", as one of the characters said about her. 

(spoiled because story spoilers and shit)

She tries to save her dad after he suffers from a heart attack with CPR in a meatlocker and then blames Kenny and Lee(if the player helps Kenny)for not wanting him to reanimate.

She bitches at Lee, Mark, and Kenny for bringing back Ben and his friend in the beginning of Chapter 2 but then calls Lee and Kenny out for leaving a girl to die while scavenging for supplies in the beginning of chapter 3

She kills Doug/Carley(depending on who you saved earlier on)

If you decide to let her stay with you after she killed, she runs off with the RV

Oh, and her Dad is a fuckface.

Wait, are you saying she's a good or bad character? Because you start off sounding like you're saying she's a bad character, but then everything you list is what I would consider makes her a good character.

 

I really liked Lilly. Not as a person, but as a character. She's complicated, as she should be. Her world is screwed up and she's trying to cope and do the best she can to keep everyone safe. I think that she reacts to situations in a very human way considering what's been going on around her. At times we are also contradictory, so I would say that she's very well written. 

[Xtremer Sadiqachu]

She's talking about how female characters aren't seen as good characters, or even leading characters, unless they have masculine traits to go with them.

Define "masculine traits". Do you mean girls that are portrayed tough and edgy?

[Blue Wisp]

Define "masculine traits". Do you mean girls that are portrayed tough and edgy?

I was thinking of someone like Korra I guess.

[VO.SUPER]

One example of a bad female character are the love interests that are just in the story for the sake of being a love interest. Sometimes they can be done well (like Astrid) but most of the time, they have no bearing on anything meaningful in the plot except for the arbitrary relationship story. It's like they don't even have lives outside of pleasing their man. 

[Scar]

I was thinking of someone like Korra I guess.

 

I never noticed whether Korra was exaggeratedly "feminine" or exaggeratedly "masculine". I suppose that's a good thing...? To be honest, I was more destracted by how much of an annoying shithead she was.

 

As for the topic at hand.

 

Female characters tend to be poor, when they exist purely for the sake of being a female character. Basically the "token minority" thing that Penthe was talking about earlier.

There's no descrete formula for making a good female character, just as there is no descrete formula for making a good male character. Its just, one aspect of the character, such as gender or race or age or...anything, shouldn't define the character. Personalities are diverse.

 

Think of it like a pie-chart or something. There are different proportions of different aspects of a personality. Sometimes a character may have more dominant feminine traits, but that doesn't mean the other traits don't exist at all, they're just in a smaller quantity. 

[Blue Wisp]

I never noticed whether Korra was exaggeratedly "feminine" or exaggeratedly "masculine". I suppose that's a good thing...? To be honest, I was more destracted by how much of an annoying shithead she was.

She's really inbetween. She's not really THAT girly, nor is she a macho-man. Kind of a good balance. 

 

With all the attitude.

[Solkia]

People consider Korra a good character? What?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Define "masculine traits". Do you mean girls that are portrayed tough and edgy?

Yeah? You know, stuff we consider "of men?"

How does require any more of a definition that you couldn't have figured out yourself?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Have you hear

"you throw like a girl"

"you hit like a girl"

"fight like a man"

 

i know these are teaseing phrase but it still says girls = weak. men = strong.

[Pelly <3's U]

I think one thing we have to examine is that sadly as it is true somewhat in real life, people are very often apt to respond more negatively to female characters....even if they possess the same traits as a male character. 

 

I see this just anecdotally a lot, scrappy sections on TV Trope pages usually have a main female character listed. I know at one point I linked an article to how the wives on many popular shows were often singled out for criticism. A common complaint I see is women are often considered 'taking a level in jerkass' for being portrayed as comically sociopathic, though this complaint isn't lodged so much at men. Female characters are much more likely to be targeted and called out for being "Mary Sues"  even if these traits they possess that make them mary sue like are commonly possessed in males. I often think that people cut male characters quite a bit more slack than female characters in reasons they dislike. Just a quick google search brings up multiple essays of others seeing the same thing. 

 

I think this is a real issue that makes the who 'strong female characters' argument a bit more nuanced. I legitimately think we are much more critical and less receptive to female characters, and it's not something I always see being brought up enough in discussions like this. It's really hard to decide what makes female characters good characters if at the same time we judge them for being strong, flawed, and human as well as being perfect, mary suelike, and wish fulfillment. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Probably because we expect certain traits from men and women, which results in certain double standards. That doesn't necessarily make it better for either one, and a lot of times it depends on the circumstances. Take tsunderes for example, when a male character does something perverted, she hits him. A bit understandable, although extreme, and has varying levels of tolerance. Take a tsundere that hits a male character for not doing anything perverted, and some in the audience go "wtf?"

 

And as for the Mary Sue and "strong female characters" I think that's because people keep thinking in extremes on these characters than anything. Rather than have the female character lack competence compared to her male counterparts, they go the other way and make her overcompetent. It's like they've made a Catch-22 when there's more options on the table. But I think Mary Sue is a bit weak in this day and age, as a lot of people throw it around for any male or female character that they just don't like.

 

At the same time, I think that's also more the fault of society imbuing on men that they need to be capable of being independent, while we don't expect women to be such - anyone who does the opposite tends to raise eyebrows. However, these things are changing, however slowly. A lot of people are wanting to see less "perfect" men who struggle in their paths and wanting to see more women who, while competent and capable of taking care of herself, doesn't do so to absurd levels. It's like how people look more fondly of Batman over Superman, as one is capable of solving everything with few options, while the other needs to be more pragmatic and actually find his options to use.

 

I suppose that's overgeneralizing, but you get what I'm saying. People are slowly starting to see more of the grey instead of leaving it at the black and white.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

you know what i think? its weird but i dont think women as characters can be anything without people bitching. its like most of America dont like female characters. why do i say this? well i will look at Sonic to this example:

 

With Amy people complain shes weak and a damsel character when she only was kidnap one time in Sonic CD. other then that she wasnt kidnap and if she was she got out herself most of the time. The only reason people think shes weak is because shes "girly" and "pink". and weak? well if that giant hammer has anything to do with it. But yeah. But with Archie Amy/StC Amy people complan shes not girly enough. shes "to" competent. specially with StC Amy. People complain shes a mary sue when shes not. Shes just not chasing after Sonic but doing things to help him. Hey she even step in for him when he give up.Most of use like me like StC Amy and Archie Amy is because shes a better balance character. Shes strong competent and she is a girly girl but not to obsess with Sonic. Now with Boom Amy people are complaning because shes "competent".

 

With Rouge people think shes weak because her design. So being a girl makes you "weak". And because shes take a more fun playing flrty personality shes more "weak". forget that shes a goverment spy and tricks a man with a 300 IQ. because shes got bewbiez and flrts with some guys~shes a slut and a bad characters.

 

With Blaze. When she come everyone act like the girls we have were weak and nothing and Blaze was the answer to there prayers. Look at the way they treat her. Forget that Amy has help with hitting robots or Cream has help to and fight Emerl in Sonic X or Rouge useing her personality to get what she wants in a awesome way. No no no. They are all weak. And Blaze is the only strong one. And the double standerds funny when it comes to Blaze. Example?

 

When Amy is angry~shes a bitch.   When Blaze is angry~shes in a bad mood

When Amy/Cream gets captre~shes weak . When Blaze gets capture~the enemy was beyond her controle

When Amy get moment with Sonic~its just conicedence.  When Blaze gets moment with Sonic~OMG they love each other!

 

or when Wave is mean~shes a bitch.  When Blaze is mean~shes insecure

 

I can go on and on. Its fucking stupid. But then there are SOME who say Blaze is a sue because shes competent. Hello~copetent=/= sue.

[188Eternal]

Personally I'm really enjoying how feminism finally became existent in the Star Wars universe due to the creations of both Ahsoka and Ventress in the CGI Clone Wars series. 

I've also really enjoyed how even in the Star Trek universe, ever since The Next Generation females have been given roles such as Chief Medical Officer, Chief Engineer, Captain of a starship, and even Admiral of a fleet. 

For some reason I find women in authoritative uniforms to be more attractive than some diminutive stereotypical girl-next-door types. I don't know how to explain it, but I guess it's a weird fetish.

I just love it when a woman acts tough and brave and isn't afraid to take risks and make big decisions on her own. It makes the show more exciting.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I hate how fans treat feminine = weak. and the only way a girl can be a good character is if you switch the pronuns around.

[188Eternal]

I'm really sick of female characters shutting down their femininity to become more "interesting" and "funny".

 

Fortunately not all female characters are being that way... Like Sailor Jupiter for instance. Despite liking martial arts and fishing she also loves cooking and figure skating and dancing. Occasionally she does like to wear a dress and feel womanish.

I love the way that she can alternate and switch roles on the go.

[Tara]

you know what i think? its weird but i dont think women as characters can be anything without people bitching. its like most of America dont like female characters. why do i say this? well i will look at Sonic to this example:

 

With Amy people complain shes weak and a damsel character when she only was kidnap one time in Sonic CD. other then that she wasnt kidnap and if she was she got out herself most of the time. The only reason people think shes weak is because shes "girly" and "pink". and weak? well if that giant hammer has anything to do with it. But yeah. But with Archie Amy/StC Amy people complan shes not girly enough. shes "to" competent. specially with StC Amy. People complain shes a mary sue when shes not. Shes just not chasing after Sonic but doing things to help him. Hey she even step in for him when he give up.Most of use like me like StC Amy and Archie Amy is because shes a better balance character. Shes strong competent and she is a girly girl but not to obsess with Sonic. Now with Boom Amy people are complaning because shes "competent".

 

With Rouge people think shes weak because her design. So being a girl makes you "weak". And because shes take a more fun playing flrty personality shes more "weak". forget that shes a goverment spy and tricks a man with a 300 IQ. because shes got bewbiez and flrts with some guys~shes a slut and a bad characters.

 

With Blaze. When she come everyone act like the girls we have were weak and nothing and Blaze was the answer to there prayers. Look at the way they treat her. Forget that Amy has help with hitting robots or Cream has help to and fight Emerl in Sonic X or Rouge useing her personality to get what she wants in a awesome way. No no no. They are all weak. And Blaze is the only strong one. And the double standerds funny when it comes to Blaze. Example?

 

When Amy is angry~shes a bitch.   When Blaze is angry~shes in a bad mood

When Amy/Cream gets captre~shes weak . When Blaze gets capture~the enemy was beyond her controle

When Amy get moment with Sonic~its just conicedence.  When Blaze gets moment with Sonic~OMG they love each other!

 

or when Wave is mean~shes a bitch.  When Blaze is mean~shes insecure

 

I can go on and on. Its fucking stupid. But then there are SOME who say Blaze is a sue because shes competent. Hello~copetent=/= sue.

There is more to a character's strength than just fighting, you know.

 

The problem with Cream and Amy is that as female characters, they are often written as an aside as opposed to a contributive part of the narrative with few exceptions.  Plus, Cream is sort of like the Batgirl or Supergirl of the Sonic series.  She was literally made with a "female Tails" motif in mind, with little no real defining characteristics of her own aside from design, in terms of abilities and overall contribution to the series.  (I'll at least give them props for allowing her a unique visual style and attitude, but even those just seem written with the sole purpose of making an obvious contrast in the gender binary.)

 

Not to say that I disagree that the way the other female characters are viewed is often problematic and unfair, but I certainly don't find the criticisms that they are weak to be without merit, if you consider them weak from a narrative standpoint as opposed to a representation of physical strength.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

i know theres more to be strong then fight. im saying we had strong characters who were female before.