The "What the HECK Is A 2016 Sonic" Prophecy Thread (two topics from the pre-server wipe in one!)

[SSF1991]

Yes, I understand it's being aimed at the main Sonic games. And I could give an example at where those had gotten fresh too (Sonic Lost World). Brand new gameplay element. New villians. Barely any nostalgia outside of the badniks and colorful enviornments. However Colorful enviornments is Sonic. It always has been regardless of the realism added to them or not. However they keep things fresh with new gameplay elements.

My point still remains. Yes, "Fresh and enjoyable" is key. But the freshness isn't the problem. It's not that it should be an end of itself. "fresh without substance" gets you nowhere but that's exactly what I'm saying. It needs substance, not freshness. We get the fresh aspect of the games already but that's what everyone's making a big deal out of.

I'm not saying quality is all that makes a game. I'm saying quality is all that remains for SEGA to have a solid product. And no one's really making a bigger deal out of that.

Furthermore, I'm tired of people telling me the only thing the games need are that "it needs to be good". It's a disingenuous statement meant to dismiss the preferences of others.

What people consider good depends on the person. It's not dismissing preferences when all of those preferences basically are just that: what, to them, makes a game good.

Edited July 31, 2015 by SSF1991

[Nepenthe]

 

Yes, I understand it's being aimed at the main Sonic games. And I could give an example at where those had gotten fresh too (Sonic Lost World). Brand new gameplay element. New villians. Barely any nostalgia outside of the badniks and colorful enviornments. However Colorful enviornments is Sonic. It always has been regardless of the realism added to them or not. However they keep things fresh with new gameplay elements.

My point still remains. Yes, "Fresh and enjoyable" is key. But the freshness isn't the problem. It's not that it should be an end of itself. "fresh without substance" gets you nowhere but that's exactly what I'm saying. It needs substance, not freshness. We get the fresh aspect of the games already but that's what everyone's making a big deal out of.

I'm not saying quality is all that makes a game. I'm saying quality is all that remains for SEGA to have a solid product. And no one's really making a bigger deal out of that.

What people consider good depends on the person. It's not dismissing preferences when all of those preferences basically are just that: what, to them, makes a game good.

You're applying a single, personal definition of "fresh" to the surface-level elements of the games and further construing that as the entire extent of people's arguments which is still disingenuous. Something doesn't have to be completely new to be considered fresh, nor is something that hasn't been seen before exempt from including previously known elements that will affect how an audience receives it. You're telling me I should accept the Deadly Six as new and thus properly catering to me simply because their designs didn't exist before without taking into account the fact that people are tired of flat villains as well, which isn't a quantifiably bad thing. Flat characters or those defined by a single characteristic have their place in fiction and can be used well. Thus, quality isn't the only problem. It's the rate of occurrence as well. That goes with everything else people are tired of.

And that's the reality of the issue: rate of occurrence. If the anniversary game proves to be driven by nostalgia and classic ideals, and it just so happens to be the greatest thing ever, I'm still not going to be happy with the nostalgia and classic elements because I'm tired of seeing them. They're appearing too much for my liking. They're not particularly interesting. They're not fresh. And considering that's all we have to go off of with concerns to the anniversary game is the general hint of nostalgic elements, people's cynicism is going to be targeted there.

In short, you're trying to argue that my problem isn't that I don't like sedans but rather that all the sedans I drove before had problems, and that if I drove a better sedan I'd be happy, right after I told you I'm tired of the very concept of driving sedans and just want a goddamn truck instead. This is the very definition of dismissing preferences.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Nepenthe

[SSF1991]

If something is appearing too much and you want something else that's...wanting something new and thus fresh. And I wasn't using just the Deadly Six as an example in regards to that game.

[Nepenthe]

Yes, that's the issue in terms of this completely hypothetical game: Classic and nostalgic elements are boring. Thus telling us that our real problem is lacking gameplay quality and not the continued use of classic and nostalgic elements is ignoring what we've been saying. It implies we will be fine with nostalgic games that just happen to play better, when the game quality is literally irrelevant to this specific complaint. Where is the confusion?

And I didn't address the other issues in-depth because my explanation against your Deadly Six example applied to the others:

 

You're telling me I should accept the Deadly Six as new and thus properly catering to me simply because their designs didn't exist before without taking into account the fact that people are tired of flat villains as well, which isn't a quantifiably bad thing....Thus, quality isn't the only problem. It's the rate of occurrence as well. That goes with everything else people are tired of.

[SSF1991]

I never said to be fine with nostalgic games. In fact everything I've been saying has been about how things were not nostalgic. What's striking is that you're saying exactly what I've been saying this whole time. It just shouldn't be the focal point of it all. Game quality shouldn't be irrelevent. It's still a large factor. The problem is seeing two to three pages of just complaints about freshness and nothing else doesn't really send the right message. Hell even I can agree that the repetitiveness is getting old now. I'm tired of boost gameplay. I'm tired of Green Hill Zone. Hell I'm tired as playing only as Sonic. However the vast majority of the nostaglia we've gotten in the past decade has come from Generations, a title that I can understand having nostalgia in as it's an anniversary title celebrating Sonic's life and the highlights (and lowlights I suppose?) in his heroics. Would it work again? Of course not. It's way too soon. Could Classic Sonic show up again? I doubt it at this point. SEGA's not the kind of company to play it that safe.

However I just don't think that's the main problem with the main series. That's all. And that's really what it boils down to. I understand if that's the point of the debate but I don't think everything else should be ignored as the past few pages in this thread seemed to come off of me as.if "nostalgia's boring now" is the only issue and the main problem and after hearing everyone not approve of the writing. the level design, and clunky controls to seemingly change their mind at the mere mention of Classic Sonic despite it being an anniversary year it rubbed me the wrong way.

We haven't had that much Sonic since the last anniversary compared to the period between Sonic 06 and Generations. That was a period of many different ideas being thrown around. Since Generations we had Sonic 4 Episode II, All Stars Racing Transformed, Lost World, and Boom. One of which was a digital title of more nostalgia and another a pure racing game spinoff. The only real main game we've had in the past 5 years was Lost World, compared to the period of 2006-2011 where we had Unleashed and Colors along with loads of spinoffs. SEGA has been taking their time now and, with the only real recent titles being nostalgic games like Generations and Sonic 4 I guess it has already worn thin on the mindset of people. And now with the arrival of another anniversary title the thought of more nostalgia after the very few main series Sonic games we've gotten lately have involved nostalgia it's not what some folks would like to see now. This easing back SEGA has done has had its good points with that period of solid titles but its bad points are now creeping up on them. Still...I don't think this is the focal point at hand here.

Even though Boom is not part of the main series games it was the last Sonic-related title we got and, unfortunately, a lot of people are making connections with 06 to Boom despite the latter being separate from the main series. And that's why I feel like game quality is the main issue here. Sonic's main series repetition was impacted by Boom's game quality and not repetition in nostalgia.

Long story short, and judging from what I've read, it seems to be a minority wanting a say in matters just as much as the majority. While I have no issue with that many, unfortunately, will. They just want a Sonic game that won't bug out on them, has good writing and level design, and is just less frustrating to play. It's looking at the big picture. Still I would be lying if I said that the main games have only one problem. The nostalgia whoring is no doubt a problem too.

Edited August 1, 2015 by SSF1991

[Nepenthe]

I disagree that Generations is the only nostalgia vehicle we've had recently. Sega and Sonic Team have denoted certain design decisions as being "classic" by outright saying that their utilization was specifically to please older crowds who prefer those games. These things include only Sonic being playable, a small cast in general, the use of zones not meaningfully connected to one another, a 2D perspective, an art style defined by hard geometric shapes and patterns and saturated colors, liberal use of assets like the Badniks or old-school run cycles, Sega chip or 90s pop-inspired music, a plot only punctuated by a few major events, among others.

As far as the bigger releases are concerned Heroes, Colors, Lost World and Sonic 4 would fit as much as Gen would in some if not most of these categories, with Heroes being a particularly exceptional case considering Seaside Hill has practically become a Green Hill stand-in in spin-off titles and mobile games. This also doesn't count the abundance of merchandise and marketing use Classic Sonic has seen throughout the franchise's lifespan, which is amazing when you consider he's been out of action for longer than Modern Sonic. So from that perspective, Sega's been using nostalgia as a blatant marketing device since 2003 and it's not become more endearing as time has gone on.

Also, no one here has said that this kind of pandering is the main problem with the franchise. That's a straw man you conjured up. People complaining about one thing in a franchise has no bearing on their entire viewpoint of that franchise nor is it a dismissal of other issues. If I complain that Amy's panty shots are gratuitous in Sonic Adventure, that doesn't mean that I think that's the only problem or even the main one. It's just something that annoyed me in the context of a particular moment or discussion, and it's the same here. All we have to go on at this point is that Sonic's 25th anniversary is going to pay further tribute to Classic Sonic, ergo it makes sense to talk about one's feelings towards Classic Sonic. With absolutely no details on the game in question, and with me already having established that wanting a good game is a pure axiom apparent in any video game discussion, I have no reason to say "Sonic Team needs to make sure the gameplay is right because that's the most important." It's a no-brainer, nothing more than preaching to the choir.

In short, you don't need to remind us that the gameplay needs to be better, or talk over us when we aren't discussing that at the moment. Everyone is always on that same page. But that's irrelevant here anyway. What's relevant is that Hogfather has been posting information and conjecture about the 25th anniversary being classically inspired. Do you like that? Why or why not? That's the actual discussion at hand here.

[SSF1991]

I didn't say it was the only one but the vast majority of it. After all we did have Sonic 4. I also don't know why suddenly merchandising is being put into this when it was about the games.

Also, no one here has said that this kind of pandering is the main problem with the franchise. That's a straw man you conjured up.

It didn't need to be said. It was something that came off to me as such because when you see reactions like this...

Calling it now, it's gonna be Sonic Generations 2. Excuse me, I'm going to puke, because I can't contain my optimism for another round of "HEY REMEMBER WHEN WE DIDN'T SUCK GAISE?!".

Guess they totally gave up on "Modern" Sonic, and it really sucks. I want something NEW: not a rehash, not a "Hey guys, back then we didn't suck, we swear!" deal, not another pandering to the nostalgic guys who can't stand new (well implemented) ideas, a well-written plot and "Sonic's shitty friends".

And don't try to tell me "The game isn't out yet, we don't know anything about it", because the same thing happened with Lost World and Boom. I'm not optimistic about it at all. Feel free to express your hype, your hopes about the game. Don't care about this party-pooper. 

 Come on SEGA, stop, just stop. Look give me another Adventure; give me another Unleashed; another Heroes; another Storybook; hell, give me another '06. Just move on, do something fresh! I swear, if I see another checkerboard I'm going to puke.

 ...Is that not reason to ponder just what the main issue really is here? How people are reacting so strongly to this? It wasn't what was said, it was how.

I don't see how simply wanting people to calm down and keep an open mind on things, something a few others have been saying, is "talking over". I may have been more blunt than I needed to be when I had said my piece but that was that. If the other problems are were a no brainer and didn't need discussion then I apologize but it didn't really come off that way. Seeing such a strong reaction to nostalgia significantly confused me. But now that I was given an elaboration of this I have a better understanding of it. So thanks for that.

I still hope cooler heads prevail though. We barely know anything, if at all. And knowing how unpredictable SEGA can be all bets are off.

 

Edited August 1, 2015 by SSF1991

[Nepenthe]

I brought up merchandise because it's relevant to the ennui I and presumably others feel towards dealing with Classic Sonic and further hammers the point home.

Also, you can't construe tone as an argument. If I say I really hate Scourge the Hedgehog in sarcastic, exaggerated, or caps locked language, that is only an argument as to how I feel about Scourge the Hedgehog. It's not an argument for how much of a problem I feel Scourge is in relation to the franchise as a whole and treating it as such as a fault of your own.

Just as well, when I say you were talking over people, I was referring to the initial argument you were trying to make that people dissatisfied with the direction were ultimately dissatisfied with the gameplay quality of previous titles, rather than simply listening and debating the merits of being dissatisfied with this particular aesthetic direction. It's happened plenty of times before as a way to dismiss people's criticisms, and it gets exhausting telling people, "No, I'm completely competent and know 100% that my problem is x, not y."

Finally, we will be more receptive to the direction when there's more to be receptive about. If the gamplay looks good, great. If the story looks to be more involved and better written, great too. If other characters are coming back, also great. If the game isn't a nostalgia vehicle at all, even better. If you don't mind what Sega is potentially doing then more power to you. You're probably going to have more fun than I am. I and others don't like the direction, and there's no responsibility for us to be "open minded" about it. If Sega wants to please people tired of nostalgia whoring, then they should stop nostalgia whoring.

[Tani Coyote]

WHO SUMMONED ME?
*Ahem* To secure budget means Marketing and Brand and PR giving up a slice of the pie. There is no community budget - or was not during my time. There probably is now but is likely to be more for America only as SOE/SOA have seperate financial setups. Such budgets then have to be pitched for (see: begged, pleaded) which requires someone to go to bat for such events. The European community manager - not yet hired - I understand will be more of a 'PR manager who also runs the social media' from my sources so it won't be like what you had before. Point is you don't have anyone to do that and any money will already be divided up at this point unless you have the Sonic brand team there to- ahh, right, you don't any more. If you're hoping for a big SOS event next year put those hopes on the backburner for now. Wait and see what can be done between now and next year. Boom on the other hand has likely been pre-allocated money from the budget for Sonic (Brand), Sonic Boom (Franchise), Fire & Ice (if relevant), and the anniversary pot.

Well... I was pessimistic already about SoS' return but that just makes it even worse.

 

If nothing else that makes my wallet feel more comfortable. I hand plans to go to the UK specifically for a 25th anniversary SoS, but if it wouldn't be that big, I lose the impetus to spend a ton of money.

 

On the other hand, this reinforces my belief that Sonic Boom will be an awesome party, and that is something I will definitely need to save up for.

 

Thank you for the input!
 

(Also obligatory joke about SEGA having a marketing budget)

Edited August 1, 2015 by Sly the Tasmanian Ogilvie

[SSF1991]

I don't understand why suddenly this is such a problem when not even a year or two ago this wasn't even brought up. Not even during the time following Generations. And if nostalgia has really been whored out like this since 2004 it makes even less sense to me. It's just...out of nowhere. lol

Either way there is no direction here. We know next to nothing on what SEGA's doing. And as I said SEGA's unpredictable. All bets are off.

[DarkRula]

I think it's more coming from the fact that mention of Classic in a game immediately brings to mind Generations, thus the consensus being it'll be another game styled after it - something that people wouldn't want.

It's also possible, as I joked in my last post, that the Classic push is, once more, merchandise focused with special anniversary branding.

[Wittymations]

I think it's more coming from the fact that mention of Classic in a game immediately brings to mind Generations

And Sonic 4.

 

It just feels like SEGA has grown very insecure of their games and try to use checkered backgrounds and classic badniks as a method of constantly apologizing for everything, without even understanding what even made the old games fun to play with in the first place. It also feels a bit insulting to the people who enjoyed elements the later games brought in.

 

This particularly image particularly sums up how I feel SEGA thinks when it comes to their nostalgia pandering.

 

As if everything that wasn't in the old days is a mistake. They shun and flip off fans of some things the newer age brought in. Big red "REJECTED" to many characters. It's loud.

I'm less offended by Generations, though I dislike that game, than I am Sonic 4. So when I see checkered backgrounds, I come back to this promotion, and I see them stamping "REJECTED" to anything I like.

Sure, I probably am looking way too much into some stupid promotion for a half decade ago, and times have changed. And I hope they have, but SEGA hasn't given me a lot of reason to build up confidence in them. If Classic Sonic is, again, the focus, well, glad I didn't get my hopes up.

[AshGreninJovan]

Speaking about Sonic Generations, I like that game, but dislikes its epilogue, even it's funny. The problem is:

How did Modern Dr. Eggman get out of White Space?

[Dejimon11]

I don't understand why suddenly this is such a problem when not even a year or two ago this wasn't even brought up. Not even during the time following Generations. And if nostalgia has really been whored out like this since 2004 it makes even less sense to me. It's just...out of nowhere. lol

Either way there is no direction here. We know next to nothing on what SEGA's doing. And as I said SEGA's unpredictable. All bets are off.

I think people realized how abundant it has become now. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Generations, though I dislike that game, than I am Sonic 4. So when I see checkered backgrounds, I come back to this promotion, and I see them stamping "REJECTED" to anything I like.

Sure, I probably am looking way too much into some stupid promotion for a half decade ago

You are.

It's a promotion made by the then community team. Nothing more.

[Wittymations]

You are.

It's a promotion made by the then community team. Nothing more.

Like I said, until Sonic Team gives me some reason to be hopeful, that promotion still says everything for me. Past promotion team or current development team.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Like I said, until Sonic Team gives me some reason to be hopeful, that promotion still says everything for me. Past promotion team or current development team.

You are complaining about a promotional item made by a community team which no longer works for Sega, for an outsourced game project that had virtually nothing to do with Sonic Team which is over 5 years old.

Because it has the word 'rejected' on it.

 

 

Meanwhile in the Sonic Runners thread, oh hey Big the Cat, Cream, Blaze, Rouge, Silver, the Chaotix... 

Still don't think you're looking too deep at that image?

[Wittymations]

You are complaining about a promotional item made by a community team which no longer works for Sega, for an outsourced game project that had virtually nothing to do with Sonic Team which is over 5 years old.

It was titled Sonic 4. A follow up to one of their biggest games, if not the biggest. Should I not blame them for that? They're the ones who chose to outsource it. They're the ones who allowed it to be designed the way it was.

Meanwhile in the Sonic Runners thread, oh hey Big the Cat, Cream, Blaze, Rouge, Silver, the Chaotix...

I had a feeling you'd bring this up. To me? A freemium mobile game. I don't care that Sonic Team themselves developed it. It's still a mobile game. Hell, Jump had lots of characters too, Dash as well. Freemium mobile games aren't exactly what I call "hopeful."

Edited August 1, 2015 by WittyUsername

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

It was titled Sonic 4. A follow up to one of their biggest games, if not the biggest. Should I not blame them for that? They're the ones who chose to outsource it. They're the ones who allowed it to be designed the way it was.

It wasn't designed to be Sonic 4, lots of evidence points to it just being a stand alone Sonic game or even a remake of Sonic 1, then someone had the idea to call it Sonic 4 as a marketing stunt. There's still an old listing for Sonic D or Sonic DL, on the PSN which is what many suspect was the name for the game before they changed.

I had a feeling you'd bring this up. To me? A freemium mobile game. I don't care that Sonic Team themselves developed it. It's still a mobile game. Hell, Jump had lots of characters too, Dash as well. Freemium mobile games aren't exactly what I call "hopeful."

Yes it's a mobile game? And? So what? What's your point? 

You're complaining about a 5 year old promotional thing *insert all the other stuff about it here.* But a recent game made by Sonic team which includes all these other characters doesn't count because... why exactly?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Hogfather

[Nepenthe]

I don't understand why suddenly this is such a problem when not even a year or two ago this wasn't even brought up. Not even during the time following Generations. And if nostalgia has really been whored out like this since 2004 it makes even less sense to me. It's just...out of nowhere. lol

Either way there is no direction here. We know next to nothing on what SEGA's doing. And as I said SEGA's unpredictable. All bets are off.

People have been annoyed by this to some degree since Heroes, mainly because there was a segment of the population that continually insisted the only right way to do things was by using nothing but classic principles to make the games which was in direct opposition to people who like Adventure-style ideas. It got particularly bad when Sonic 4 was announced, and I believe Retro put up an opinion article blaming non-classic fans for the downfall of the franchise (and, you know, not Sega and Sonic Team's incompetence.) It's just that ever since Sonic 4 and Colors, a more classic or minimalist approach is has been the way Sega has mostly done things, meaning people who don't give a shit about that direction have little to look forward to on a gameplay or an aesthetic front. Thus the vocal opposition is louder.

And of course there's nothing confirmed. Which is why I said people's opinions to the news being posted by Hogfather may change. Again, no nostalgia whoring- great. I'll be happy. More nostalgia whoring- Booooo.

[Wittymations]

 

It wasn't designed to be Sonic 4, lots of evidence points to it just being a stand alone Sonic game

Sure. And they allowed it.

Yes it's a mobile game? And? So what? What's your point? 

 Simple, it's not a main-title game. That's really it. Nothing else. Doesn't matter to me it's developed by Sonic Team.

It'd be the same if it were a party game, racing game, sports game. Wouldn't matter if those were developed by Sonic Team either.

In the past, they had released handheld titles that featured characters before releasing a main title game, as some type of "appetizer." I believe Cream was used through that method. And if Runners was used in the same way, I will shut up and eat my words. But it's very unlikely, especially if the focus will be on more 'classic" elements.

Edited August 1, 2015 by WittyUsername

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

Simple, it's not a main-title game. That's really it. Nothing else. Doesn't matter to me it's developed by Sonic Team

I don't get it, those characters are in the game, they're on the Sonic channel, they're still being used and still given focus, it's not like it's a Ray or Mighty situation where they're completely retired.

I really don't get what the problem is here? 

Not a main title? So what? Also everybody said Secret Rings wasn't a main game and just a spinoff, then Colours comes along and bobs your uncle, it's a main game. 

[Wittymations]

I don't get it

I'm not asking you to agree or understand my logic. It's a very pessimistic outlook that I really wish I didn't have. You're better off not getting it.

[Nepenthe]

Mobile games aren't considered as acceptable compromise to enjoy one's favorite aspects of the franchise because they're irrelevant and not given the development time of console entries. No more, no less. Look at the recent hullabaloo that happened when Bowbowis suggested that classic games could continue existing on handheld consoles- not even the sewer that is mobile- while newer 3D games could continue existing on high-end consoles. People were pissed and insisted it was completely unfair. In short, the conversations about the things we want on games is being made on the assumption that we want these things on consoles, not corralled off to the side in mobile games.

[Badnik Mechanic]

And of course there's nothing confirmed. Which is why I said people's opinions to the news being posted by Hogfather may change. Again, no nostalgia whoring- great. I'll be happy. More nostalgia whoring- Booooo.

The thing with this 'boo nostalgia' is something which is something which is a poor use of language to describe something.

If people say 'boo nostalgia' I instantly think Classic Series. 

But I don't instantly think Sonic Adventure - Sonic Heroes, I really don't know why since those games right now are someone's nostalgia and are probably my own if I gave them more attention when they first came out. And given the age of some fans when SA came out, odds are they find those games nostalgic.

Put it like this, it's like how people who constantly moan about "Why no Sonic Adventure 3!?" and instantly follow it up with "This is not about nostalgia!" That's exactly what it is, you're crying out for something nostalgic.

Remember the term 'monster of the week?' in which we complained about Sonic Team including a big monster in every game? Well we tend to do this every few months with a new complaint or moan, ('moan of the month' anyone?) anyone remember, 'Sonic alone!' 'More playable characters' '2D game!' 'Classic Sonic!' etc etc. 

So since this is the new fan stance of the month, "Boo nostalgia" well... what exactly are we calling nostalgia these days? By rights, I would say anything prior to Sonic 06. Since that's under 10 years ago and Sonic 06 was pretty much was the starting block for the direction that the franchise took until SLW/Boom came along. 

 

 

So if we're going to do this 'Boo nostalgia' can we at least get a date range as to what that includes? I'd say anything prior to Sonic 06.