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SIXTH-RATE SOMA

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Well, most you can do to change the attitude of a large group of members is hope for the mods to take even greater action and enforce stricter rules to keep the drama to a minimum.

 

Aside from that, the only thing you can change is yourself unfortunately. You can't exactly stop someone else from acting like a 5 year old jackass on the internet. And for the record, I'm not referring to the topic that caused the fuss (no, that's a different case entirely), but just the forums in general because I've seen it pop up at times where it really isn't even warranted.

 

It's sad, really - we're what gives this community its atmosphere and it's sad when it devolves to moments like that. I've been noticing this trend fluctuate a lot, and to me it boils down to people demanding sympathy without giving it in return. Like, I preach that a lot because there's always this influx of a heated miscommunication at best and self-centered arrogance at worst.

 

I'm all ears to anyone that has thoughts. But in the end, it's that golden rule of treating others as you would want to be treated in return.

 

EDIT: It's also been said that there something deeply rooted that's been festering for a while. Things like mob mentality and a schism. Anyone wanna examine that?

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Or report it, potentially. Mods can step in to regulate the tone if one side isn't getting the message.

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Without getting into it, I watched everything that took place last night. You know what made me sad? Not the subject of argument, I was completely neutral on that. It was seeing people, who I've seen get on brilliantly before, go at each other in a way that became far beyond personal. 

 

Like others have said, it's clear that there had been a mounting level of tension among some people and things were evidently going to kick off eventually. If this hadn't come up, then something else later on would have triggered it.

 

Now, a little bit about me (I'm going somewhere with this I promise). I'm an optimist, I always see the good things in everything and everyone and I go out every day with a smile on my face, feeling cheerful and try to make others cheerful if I can. Now, some of you might read that and think I'm coming across as forced, naive, or indeed someone you want to slap the smile off of which is fair. I am the way I am because that's the person I chose to be a long time ago. I'm not perfect, perfection doesn't exist, but I do my best.

 

The point is I am one person, we all are. We are all capable of being whatever kind of person we want to be and no matter what happens, we are so very different but at the same time share more similarities than we could ever possibly know. Since we're different, our perspectives on things can be different too. My standing on right and wrong in a particular context could be completely different from someone else's. That's okay, that's great, because difference is what enables us to discuss, debate and learn all through life.

 

We are individuals, we can influence each other but ultimately we all function individually. You ask what we can do to improve the atmosphere around the place. The only thing that can be done is for people to look at themselves, and only themselves, and ask if this is who they are and who they want to be. People evolving as individuals is what makes a collective group more harmonious.

 

In the end, I don't believe anyone here acts with the intention of stirring up drama. Everyone acts in the manner which is right from their own perspective. Our differences in perspective means there always will be debate, at least sometimes, and sometimes things can go too far. The mod team are here for that exact reason and can cool things down when they become too heated for their own good.

 

So, what do we do moving forward? Like I say, I'm a particularly optimistic sort of person so I'm going to put a positive spin on this. People have now had their say and let out what's been mounting for an unspecified amount of time. Some needed to vent and let out what needed to be let out and it's healthy to do that now and then. People are now seemingly moving on in their own ways, some are continuing on as normal and others have felt they need to bow out and take their leave. There is no "right" way to deal with this and again people will deal with it in their own ways. The best thing we can do (again, from my perspective) is take things slowly and we'll gradually move on. 

 

This place does feel different now from what it perhaps did in recent past, and the aftermath of recent events might linger for sometime. But if people focus on moving on, we'll be alright in the end.

 

Now then, that's my motivational speech of the day done. How about that Splatoon eh?

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Alright don't hit me for this, this is just me giving my opinion. I'm not intending on debating this because, again, this is just my perspective on the matter, but I feel like I should put this out nonetheless.

 

I've said countless times before that I feel like this place is becoming the next tumblr, and I mean that. I feel like a people seem to have been warped under the strong topics of, for example, feminism or priviledge in general, including the mods and friends of them, similar as the case is with a lot of people lately on tumblr.

 

Yes, you can argue I'm being a hypocrite by blaming others for making a mess, I'm sure people know that I tend to be rather harsh or stubborn. But the thing is, I've always been like this, and have been for the last 3 years. I didn't make a madoka magical transformation and it sure as hell isn't my sole fault things turned out the way it did.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have strong ethical values and coming out for them. But this just as much bound to repel people as my douchebag personality. The only difference is that there are more of you than me, and you group togheter. It's quite apparant to me when I get told by Sean to "piss off" with no mods batting an eye, yet when I have a bit of snark in my words I get slapped on the wrist.

 

I don't see this place changing anytime soon. Quite honestly? I want to leave. I'm staying because I've spent some good years here and know the community. But it's getting harder every day.

 

I also want to apologize up front if I sound like I'm acting superior in any way. Friends of mine have recently pointed this habit out, with examples, and I was genuinely suprised. It's not intentional.

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Let me tell you something about what I was when joining SSMB. I was a cynical, brash pre-teen that expected to not even last ten days staying on this forum. Most communities I join in, I leave for a bunch of reasons (Ex. Too large for me to fit in, way too hostile, etc) so I'm pleasantly surprised to see that I've been on here for what, 2 years? That's a lot of fricken time. During that time, I played with gamers that had a passion as strong as me. During that time, I got to participate in a community I really cared about.

 

But I think I really need to clear something up here. This is the internet after all, but our actions cannot be erased. About 50-100 guests visit the site everyday. They see our posts, see our discussions, and see our status updates. When we do something stupid, there's most likely a chance a random person just saw that. I've said and done things on here just as stupid, but when you've got a bunch of guests viewing a really heated debate, it can really rub the wrong impression. When we unintentionally/intentionally drop into a mob parade, everybody on the site literally sees that.

 

I think the only way we can maintain ourselves from such toxicity is if we keep that in mind. Our actions don't go without consequences, especially on the Internet. What people see are our actions, and anybody considering joining this site are the judges of our behavior.

 

SSMB, you are a community I refuse to go down in such a way. There's really no other place I've felt as welcome in as the forum "Sonic Stadium Message Boards". It's disheartened me when such a large incident has led to people leaving and a bunch of negativity across the entire board as a whole.

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I'd agree with the notion there's something going on. Tonally, I think some of the things said in that thread were unacceptable, member and mods alike. Making things personal and insulting each other's intelligence (among other things) in a community like this doesn't get you anywhere and just builds tension. Debating here feels hugely intimidating for that reason as a result of it honestly. I love discussing and becoming educated as much as the next guy, but not at the risk of disrespectful and belittling attitudes towards me. 

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Before I even make a long winded reply here and look like an idiot if it's not, is the only reason this topic exists right now because of that mess in the videogame deals thread? 

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Well that certainly kicked off the discussion and will likely be the leading example, but in general it's about the attitude and boiling tensions between members of the community. 

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I watched the shit go down last night, and people here really need to learn how to have an actual debate. It kind of just escalated into little more than a slap fight over ethics, and while I feel both sides made great arguments, those points were all kind of lost in the aggressiveness.

 

Honestly, no matter how good of an argument you make, if you seem angry and pissed off then it's going to weaken the point you're trying to make as well as just nurture hostility between you and the person involved. Unless you actively want to create issues, then I'd say that this isn't a good thing. When the moderators are being just as bad as the members in that regard, then I can see why people would be as exasperated with this place as they are. It doesn't show a lot of potential for the needed change to make this an endearing community that people want to be a part of instead of just stick around because they have a friend or two they like.

 

Not to say that heated discussion is bad - on the contrary, I think debates are healthy and promote much needed intelligent discussion. A debate can quickly lose its positive qualities if it devolves into the shit that went down last night, though. I sit back and I see this kind of thing happen on here all of the time, really, and I've been here for just barely over two months. Something as simple as exerting a little tact here and there can go a long way towards fixing the problems addressed in the OP, me thinks.

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I have no idea what happened last night except that she said oh baby I feel so down etc. But I'm seriously worried about you guys asking mods to regulate every situation.

I mean, are you trying to build a safe space or something? A place in which mods are the guards of everyone's feelings? Like, Jesus. Shouldn't people be able to overcome their differences and talk? Fight, even? If that's what it takes for people to get their feelings across, then so be it.

If people don't have the chance to be honest because moderators are always protecting people's feelings and """ enforcing rules""", the result of the tension will vanish but the tension won't dissipate. On the contrary, it'll always build up and people will get passive aggressive, until someday the whole thing blows up and in the end threads like these have to be created.

So yeah, hostility can only go away with heart to heart interaction and """rule enforcing""" prevents honest interaction.

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I have no idea what happened last night except that she said oh baby I feel so down etc. But I'm seriously worried about you guys asking mods to regulate every situation.

I mean, are you trying to build a safe space or something? A place in which mods are the guards of everyone's feelings? Like, Jesus. Shouldn't people be able to overcome their differences and talk? Fight, even? If that's what it takes for people to get their feelings across, then so be it.

If people don't have the chance to be honest because moderators are always protecting people's feelings and """ enforcing rules""", the result of the tension will vanish but the tension won't dissipate. On the contrary, it'll always build up and people will get passive aggressive, until someday the whole thing blows up and in the end threads like these have to be created.

So yeah, hostility can only go away with heart to heart interaction and """rule enforcing""" prevents honest interaction.

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Nobody has said anything on rule enforcing though. We're referring to the community as a whole on the situation regarding toxicity.

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Nobody has said anything on rule enforcing though. We're referring to the community as a whole on the situation regarding toxicity.

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While perhaps tightening the rules of etiquette would be good (I've thought it would be good if we revised the rules for other reasons anyway), I don't think there's much we – as in the mod team - can do at the end of the day.

Like any sort of authority organization, we ultimately can do only do as much as the community we're responsible for will work with us on.

More active reporting is one way to do this, but the ultimate idea is that while we can try and rein in the most grievous offenses, SSMB is ultimately what you all make of it, not us. If every single person here just wanted to insult and yell at each other all day long, we could do nothing to stop that because by that point we need to ban the whole forum, and by then what’s the point?

Toxicity is an individual issue, not a bureaucratic one.

I’d ask we go the extra mile with regards to the rules. You might not be required to be nice, but that doesn’t mean you should avoid being so. Remember that emotions reinforce each other, positive or negative. You yell at me, I will yell back. You compliment me, I will compliment you back. Basically… rather than just being a regular citizen, I’d ask you try to be a model one. Not a requirement, of course, but it would help.

I think what would absolutely help is more attempts to communicate with other members beyond the various topics. I especially recommend voice chat; you can very quickly change your take on a member by actually hearing their voice. They are no longer just a robot with a username… they are a person with feelings just like you.

I will confess I’m somewhat antisocial myself, but I do nonetheless find the time to join Skype calls, Google+ Hangouts and the like every so often. Many times with people I don’t know that well… and I get along more or less with all in attendance provided there’s a topic I can contribute to. I’ve made a lot of closer friends this way, I just tend to lack the initiative unless someone invites me to join.

But anyway, the idea here is… always remember the Golden Rule. If your blood is boiling… take a walk and cool down. If someone deeply offends you, don’t reply to it, report it. You don’t need to exude rainbows and gumdrops, but overall try and do what you can to maintain a positive atmosphere.

A good way to improve the atmosphere in this manner is… imagine being on the receiving end. Consider how you’d react if your word choice was directed at you. Speaking of “you,” while there is the figurative impersonal you, I always suggest avoiding it. People can still take it personally no matter what your intent. Words like “stupid, dumb, idiotic,” etc. should probably be avoided with regards to even ideas, because if a person subscribes to it, they might not take it that well.

Compare “Conservatism is idiotic” vs. “conservatives are idiotic.” Technically, these sentences say different things, but a conservative is likely to feel just as alienated by both. This is just one example. I’ll use a similar example when religion is brought up – the use of the word “fairy tale.” While your not believing is fine and dandy, words like that are really mocking to those who do. It’s not explicitly against the rules to use these examples I state, but that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily the right words.

Compare “I see no compelling evidence in God, so I don’t believe in him.” Vs. “I don’t believe in God because I don’t need the comfort of fairy tales to give my life purpose.” The first one is a rational argument and most wouldn’t find it rude. The second? Oh yes some are going to find that mean. Whether you’re just a non-believer or outright anti-theist, a lot of people put great stock in their religious values and naturally become agitated when you blatantly mock them.

Where I’m going with all this is though… it’s really up to the rank and file members what this place is. Myself and the rest of the staff can do what we can to keep the most blatant bile off the boards, but there’s a lot of possible remarks that are cruel but not illegal. Even if you report every single offensive post and we hand out a surge of strikes and suspensions, there will still be many more posts that don’t quite cross the line into rule breaking territory, and those are the ones that we can do nothing about.

I don't know, this was kind of stream of consciousness. I guess my main idea is this is a "private sector" (the members) issue than a "public sector" (the staff) one.

Before I even make a long winded reply here and look like an idiot if it's not, is the only reason this topic exists right now because of that mess in the videogame deals thread?

No, it's rather like a riot. Riots often erupt in response to a specific incident, but tensions existed long before that. The incident was just the spark.

In this case, there were presumably all sorts of tensions beneath the surface, and the topic was what finally caused the fissure to open.

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I think I was browsing the forum when it started, but since I hardly venture all around the forum, and only occasionally glance at the status updates, I missed everything from last night. This morning, I did glance at the status updates. And I did wonder what had gone down. I think I got enough of an idea from what I read, and all I can say is - lay off the personality attacks. That's what I felt it boiled down to. Different personality traits and experiences.

I'm sure people know about how I came to be here. Quite simply, Generations. And I think it did take a while for me to be more open and more personal within the boards. While always respectful, I always made sure to keep my posts civil, even in a debate. While I did become more personal, I didn't allow that to become the entirety of my post. I wouldn't get all up in exuding my personality in other peoples faces. I could make a real post an example, but finding one that fits this would probably take some time.

I say that a character needs something to make them more likeable, someone else disagrees. I keep my post civil when responding, but they don't see eye to eye, and starts making it more personal. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to devolve to their level, with both of us slowly devolving into a heat-filled vendetta against each other with each post. I'm going to keep remaining civil, and if that other person devolves on their own with no provacation, it might be a good time for me to step in and say cool off a bit.

I don't think, for me, it has ever got that far. But what I read last night could certainly have done with some people doing that.

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This particular incident, to me, wasn't the zenith of anything long-time coming. It was an unexpected, unnecessary status update with elements to the story that included the potential of a felony having been committed. Unless you think we're supposed to laugh it up when our friends come across as having casually admitted to committing fraud because saying good advice like "you shouldn't have committed a felony" and "you shouldn't cheer on people committing felonies" is now apparently ridiculous SJW nonsense, then the targeting of people's character wasn't unjustified. If we don't want to get into a conversation like this again, the thing to do would when communicating to the board about our lives and business endeavors is to do so clearly to let people understand we're definitely not committing crimes or doing otherwise illicit behavior, and certainly not to treat any such confusion about this as a joke for an hour or so.
 
Economics and the law surrounding it have nothing to do with social justice either, unless you're now under the impression that Tornado and Ogilvie subscribe heavily to that kind of typical Tumblr banter. Even better, the subject of ethics on the matter was something that both sides participated in before it was decided to halt the discussion in the thread, and in the original status update there were actually no "sides" to have taken. People took the information at face value and 99% of people were upset about it on multiple rational bases with the other 1% congratulating Autosaver on having scored cheap games. Generally you wouldn't have been able to tell who thought feminism was good idea or not due to its sheer irrelevancy to the topic at hand. Social justice wasn't an underlying cause to this, and arguably has never been considering the outright cynicism rampant in discussion around here has almost everything to do with people pissing on Sonic and Sega day in and day out, and people like me being personally sick of that shit.
 
Neither is special moderator treatment honestly, particularly since I actually told Sean in private "if you do anything particularly stupid, I will strike you." Speaking of which, if you need to know: The only person who got warned last night didn't actually participate in any of what went on yesterday. That person flamed someone else in a completely unrelated thread with no prompting whatsoever and they've had a history of doing this.
 
Regardless, the mere mentioning of social justice is part of the problem with the majority of banter on here if we're subscribing to the idea that what happened last night is the end result of some nebulous snowball effect, and it's something I touched on in Nightwing's topic about debate: people assuming you are on a "side" of some sort that is completely uninformed by or irrelevant to the situation at hand and acting out on that, versus listening to what people are actually saying and addressing that. People are more likely to get angry at me or dismiss me if they perceive any and all actions I take and do the result of being a feminist or an anti-racism advocate than they are if they see me being disappointed that someone potentially committed a felony and gave everyone wanting answers the runaround for an hour.
 
Another part of the problem is people dragging incidences like this out in public for a whole day. Autosaver's status got huge and the updates afterward contained fallout regarding it which I guarantee you would've faded into obscurity from people either getting bored or from people getting sick of the derail and calling on us to tell us to stop it. It's happened before with one such example concerning someone who admitted to homophobia of all things, and another more relevant example being the dumbass SSMB tabloid being passed around last night.
 
Instead, we had an announcement about an upcoming post which kept the engine going, and while I understand he would've wanted to defend himself everything could've actually been cleared up had he said in a status update that he was an authorized user of the card, something only finally admitted when Tornado started taking him to town hours after the fact in an off-shoot topic stemming from the original debate (the entire thing with ripping off Best Buy may have stood after that point, which is a discussion that also wouldn't have been without precedent if you remember another member famously trying to justify abusing eBay's services to prevent from paying custom charges, and how some of the same people angry at what happened last night participated in that one and got said member so frustrated that they left). And when that died, someone randomly brought it back up in the statuses- effectively resurrecting it since members were coming on that weren't present during the initial incident- which is what seemed to have at least directly prompted the "exodus" last night.
 
Yet another issue is meta discussion about the matter. If a situation is going on, people have a habit of remarking about the decorum of people involved in the statuses, and it's less designed to inform the mods or give people some advice than it is to snipe at participants from the sidelines and score some points without any regards to the quality of posts or what the situation entails, or to simply express faux outrage. In short, this type of peanut gallery shit only aids the drama and this is a nasty habit I'll admit is mired in the way SSMB actually has always discussed things, particularly in regards to Sonic.
 
Someone in this very thread sniped at me in the statuses for being "too emotional" or some bullshit, hilariously oblivious to the fact that I was actually playing Banjo-Kazooie in the background the entire time (It is possible to say something is appalling without being all that emotionally invested or upset, not that emotional investment or being upset is a bad thing. I'll remind everyone til I'm blue in the face that we were discussing the potential of felony activity here). Another person added to that and called me unprofessional, which we all are because this is a volunteer job on an Internet forum. As I said then: give me payment to do this and I'll be as meek and neutral as a Sega PR guy.
 
Palas also raises a good point that a lot of this can be curbed by people actually taking their grievances and regrets to PMs and hashing it out. Me and Autosaver mutually apologized to one another last night, and this was well after things had temporarily settled down and I was responding in his own joke statuses without any regards for what the situation had brought up beforehand. This also goes back to the point about meta discussion. SSMB as a whole has a habit of refusing to go in private and talk about things like this to keep them from boiling over.
 
I'm also not sure how you want us to go about curbing the tone into something more pleasant. Not only is that entirely dependent upon the attitudes of people participating in discussion directly which we can do absolutely nothing about, but we're also at an impasse because some people simultaneously think we're too restrictive on people's tone. People have lamented every now and again that they can't get away with saying what they really feel anymore without risk of someone taking it seriously or facing direct moderator intervention. I don't know how to reconcile SSMB being a wild west and yet SSMB also being too PC; if someone else does, lay down a plan for us.
 
 
tl;dr:
  • Stop dragging out the length of time people are confused on a situation, particularly if you're at the center of it. If you can clarify something immediately, do so clearly and concisely and move on.

 

  • Instead of assuming that people are irrationally being thrust into something due to their political views because it's an easy strawman to counter, listen to what they're actually saying about the specific situation at hand.

 

  • Do not fuel the fire by being a remarking on the discussion and its participants in the status updates; do not interrupt the settling of the dust by bringing it up again when people are attempting to move on.

 

  • Hash out your problems with specific people in the PMs or some other form of private communication.
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I don't know what reasons other people had for leaving, but I've been thinking it over for some time now. Partially because earlier this year I was surprised to learn that going to SSMB was more a force of habit for me than something I actually enjoyed. I have my theories about why things are the way they are on here, but putting it too bluntly will probably hurt some feelings. It has a lot to do with people's personalities, and the effect that this franchise has had on that recently. I'm a sarcastic asshole when I'm frustrated, among many others here from what I've seen. On the other hand, we have a huge number of members who react differently and don't take that more biting humor very well at all.

Frankly yesterday was just the last straw for me and proved to me that the deep seated insecurities and jealousies people had just weren't worth dealing with. Certain things I read made me really, really fucking angry, and my respect for a certain few people fell lower than it already was.

I don't have a solution to this. I just don't care to be a part of it anymore. I've already been very open with why I'm still here - for some reason I'm popular, and people seem to listen to what I say. But honestly all I really do is talk about how dumb I think this site can be so its not really worth it to me to continue. Especially when last time we actually tried to address a grievance a grand majority of the active members had with the way the site was being moderated, the conversation was immediately shut down, the official response was a really long winded and way of saying absolutely nothing and it was back to business as usual the very next day.

I'm not really one to make big dramatic "woe is me, goodbye forever friends" posts. I didn't last time I left back in August - November either. But if we're gonna have a lasting conversation about why people don't like the site anymore, I might as well chime in. I don't know if SSMB is a different place from how it was five years ago, if I'm a different person, or both. It doesn't matter when the end result is the same either way - I just don't like SSMB. Don't like the community, don't like the way it's moderated.

I was actually planning to come back after a few months like I did last time, but if Blue Blood, Autosaver, T-Man, Jacky, Solkia, and others are all leaving too then there's not really much point for me. So I don't know.

Hopefully y'all figure this shit out.

Edit - this is my last post here for several months time at the very least. Don't expect a reply if you want to engage with me on this. I'm done.

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As someone who is admitting to be clueless, what kind of poor treatment of other members has been going on?

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With regards to the Autosaver incident last night.

Having read it all and even having asked what happened. Its quite clear that he did nothing wrong. Regardless as to what your ethics or moral code says.

Fact is he didn't break the law or do a thing wrong. That right there should have been the end of it.

So why did and where so many people actively saying he was committing theft and posting some outright insane claims about him stealing when he hadn't done anything of the sort?

Can someone explain why that was allowed to happen?

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Might I also add (I am guilty of this myself) that instead of blocking other members for seemingly no reason and making them confused as to why a friendship suddenly ended, how about we talk about it instead of hiding behind a computer code? It would be nice for us to get an understanding instead of making like cowards and shutting down shop at each others presence.

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I'm just going to sound off on this at the risk of turning this into another hot potato here - please redirect the whole "business ethics" argument into the recently made thread. As interesting as a discussion it may be, this topic was made with the intent of general community attitude (due to the internalized nature of which might just be better suited in the Personal Discussion subforum but I'll give that some thought). Feel free to branch off the above conversation to the already existing topic which was made explicitly out of general pursued interest, and not due to targeting any specific member's intent. Please keep that in mind and refrain from heading down that road out of respect for the situation management.

EDIT: Relocated Ogilvie and Hogfather's posts to the appropriate topic. Again, please continue the discussion there.

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It'd be better to keep the actual ethics debate in the appropriate thread. I think most people can rightfully agree that this is an issue that possesses some level of personal investment due to morality and legality being the central themes, so all that needs to be said here is that that was what initiated yesterday's events.

Oops late

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