To think, just a few years back...

[PerfectChaos]

...we all thought the series had some good uphill momentum and was finally recovering.

Even with those that didn't like Colours/Gens I think most could at least agree they were decent and the quality was starting to climb. Hell, people (gamers and critics alike) were even saying "Sonic is good again". 

At this point I'm just wondering what the hell the Generations team has been working on, it's like the only fraction of hope remaining.

EDIT - I think it's also kind of sad that the handheld outings are no longer the consistent quality experiences they used to be - even at the worst of times we always at least had that, the little handheld gems. It's been too long since we had a good handheld outing, IMO beginning with the terribly mediocre Generations 3DS. They wanted it to not feel watered down they said, but I think a port of the HD version probably would have been for the best, all things considered.

Edited July 18, 2015 by PerfectChaos

[Failinhearts]

Well, I have faith the 25th Anniversary game will be good.

Is that considered "too much optimism?"

[krazystitch]

I feel like people jump back and forth very quickly on when something is good and bad. One great title comes out and people say something has come back to its former glory. One weak installment and it's going downhill, it's very wishy-washy.

But in the case of Sonic, there was a high point with Colors and Generations that came back down really fast with Sonic Boom, that's a separate type of game focusing on different mechanics and essentially a different world. I don't think it excuses the fact that it was awful, but I want to wait and see what they do for the next game in the main Sonic series.

[PerfectChaos]

I feel like people jump back and forth very quickly on when something is good and bad. One great title comes out and people say something has come back to its former glory. One weak installment and it's going downhill, it's very wishy-washy.

But in the case of Sonic, there was a high point with Colors and Generations that came back down really fast with Sonic Boom, that's a separate type of game focusing on different mechanics and essentially a different world. I don't think it excuses the fact that it was awful, but I want to wait and see what they do for the next game in the main Sonic series.

I don't think that's quite how it happened in this case though. Even after Generations we still weren't saying it was near its former glory, just that it was good in its own right. And Sonic 4 (even if many fans hated it) and Colours and Generations all showed a distinct trend of improving quality collectively. But Sonic Lost World was drastically worse despite some still liking it, and the Booms were obviously "the next '06" according to some. Of course, Boom wasn't made by any of the usual teams but Sega still let it happen and there were obviously crippling problems with it early on, it wasn't just some kind of surprise to them that it turned out bad.

 

To me Lost World casts doubt over how competent the Colours team actually is, while the Generations team hasn't yet produced something since, unless I'm mistaken about that. That's why I'm hoping they can actually deliver on the anniversary title, which is probably what they're doing, right?

 

If it's Gens 2, there will be so much outrage, but I honestly wouldn't mind.

[krazystitch]

Well, the point of view from people within the fan base and people outside the fan base can be very different. Colors isn't talked about very often outside of the fan base, but people who hardly play any Sonic games make fun of 06 and Boom. It just seems like the let downs for the Sonic series are the ones that end up being amplified in terms of how many people know about it, which is really a shame.

Lost World wasn't really a step in the wrong direction per se, I think. It wasn't a step up, but it wasn't a step down either. They tried out something new and it didn't exactly work in their favor. It was experimental without being painful, but even a title that wasn't that great doesn't get as much talk as ones that are just straight out bad. I think that's what gives Sonic a worse image to the general public, the idea that the series should just die off is brought up because the good titles just don't get shown around as much.

[PerfectChaos]

Lost World wasn't really a step in the wrong direction per se, I think. It wasn't a step up, but it wasn't a step down either. They tried out something new and it didn't exactly work in their favor. It was experimental without being painful, but even a title that wasn't that great doesn't get as much talk as ones that are just straight out bad. I think that's what gives Sonic a worse image to the general public, the idea that the series should just die off is brought up because the good titles just don't get shown around as much.

I guess so, but this is still an issue that consistent quality would have kept at bay even with people focusing on the negative, simply because none of the newer stuff would deserve to be trash talked. At the time of Generations, yes people still talked crap about 06 and Unleashed but there wasn't so strong a sentiment of wanting the series to die off or generally being sub-par anymore. "Sonic 4 is the only good Sonic game in the last decade", "Sonic 4 and Colours are the only good Sonic games in the last decade...", "Sonic 4 and Colours and Generations..."

There's only so long that could go on for before it is accepted the series has had a string of success that deserves to be recognized as such. But with LW and Boom that string has been interrupted, putting the goodwill meter back at 0. 

I do see what you're saying though. 

[Phos]

Sonic 4 and colors? Gross. 

Generations was OK, but in my book one game is hardly a trend, and it wasn't even much to talk about.  Kinda served as much to call attention to problems more than really fixing them. 

[PerfectChaos]

Sonic 4 and colors? Gross. 

Generations was OK, but in my book one game is hardly a trend, and it wasn't even much to talk about.  Kinda served as much to call attention to problems more than really fixing them. 

I respect that opinion and all but the general consensus of these games is positive, that is undeniable. While this was not true for the other Sonic games. Thus there was a "trend" of abnormally positive output.

[Phos]

I respect that opinion and all but the general consensus of these games is positive, that is undeniable. While this was not true for the other Sonic games. Thus there was a "trend" of abnormally positive output.

Yeah there was a lot of positivity around it, but I never really got it, half the time Colors was basically "Sonic in Megaman World" and rest was some wisps. 

[PerfectChaos]

Yeah there was a lot of positivity around it, but I never really got it, half the time Colors was basically "Sonic in Megaman World" and rest was some wisps. 

Wut

 

Sounds like you've been playing some Chinese Megaman knock-off. MegaBoy?

 

Edited July 18, 2015 by PerfectChaos

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah there was a lot of positivity around it, but I never really got it, half the time Colors was basically "Sonic in Megaman World" and rest was some wisps. 

Dude. I don't remember one single second of Colours that was anything like Mega Man.

[Nepenthe]

I assume he's referring to how blocky the platforming was.

[FireBird75]

While I am still cautiously optimistic about the 25th Anniversary game, I do take notice of the negative atmosphere around Sonic lately.  Boom angered, disappointed, and confused a lot of people last year and it would be foolish to suggest that that negativity wasn't warranted.  Sega's made mistakes like this in past.  They've should have known better.  The latest word from Sega's CEO are cathartic in that it seems they have finally realize that they had a problem and are going to NOT repeat these mistakes.  That said, I can't really blame those who take those words with a HUGE grain of salt or just flat out don't buy it at all.

There's also the matter of the current games: Sonic Runners, Sonic Dash 2: Sonic Boom,and Fire & Ice.  The former being a mobile endless runner made by Sonic Team that had a solid soft launch but had a very mixed int'l launch (thought I believe it'll sort itself out like the first Dash game); the latter being two more Boom games because folks were clearly asking for more that (sigh).

One can only hope that Sonic 25th can bring something fans can at least feel good about for a while.

[PerfectChaos]

Dude. I don't remember one single second of Colours that was anything like Mega Man.

http://media.giphy.com/media/10RRNregziXmw0/giphy.gif

https://www.giflike.com/a/HCZWIb8/sonic-colors-wii-tas-egg-shuttle-in-38-50-75-wr

 

CLEARLY the same thing, dude.

 

 

 

[Tara]

Sonic Colors' acclaim is largely seeded in being arguably better than everything released in the previous six years.  Generations helped solidify the thought process that Sega were taking babysteps to improve on their past mistakes.  There was definitely some noted optimism for the series to make a recovery.  I don't think anyone had any reason to expect Sega to just take a forward nosedive into an incredibly negatively-received spin-off, when even the divisive SLW was developed off the core mechanics of traditional Sonic gameplay.  That said, I don't think Sonic, or Boom for that matter, are beyond saving.  RoL wasn't bad in concept, and probably would have been at least passable if not for a multitude of internal affairs.  I don't know if it's optimism or apathy at this point.  Neither Sonic Boom was bad enough to make me upset as much as just bored.  It's more about actually doing something, and Fire & Ice doesn't give me much hope that they plan on doing anything aside from rehashing the same material that didn't work in their favor before.

[PerfectChaos]

Sonic Colors' acclaim is largely seeded in being arguably better than everything released in the previous six years.  Generations helped solidify the thought process that Sega were taking babysteps to improve on their past mistakes.  There was definitely some noted optimism for the series to make a recovery.  I don't think anyone had any reason to expect Sega to just take a forward nosedive into an incredibly negatively-received spin-off, when even the divisive SLW was developed off the core mechanics of traditional Sonic gameplay.  That said, I don't think Sonic, or Boom for that matter, are beyond saving.  RoL wasn't bad in concept, and probably would have been at least passable if not for a multitude of internal affairs.  I don't know if it's optimism or apathy at this point.  Neither Sonic Boom was bad enough to make me upset as much as just bored.  It's more about actually doing something, and Fire & Ice doesn't give me much hope that they plan on doing anything aside from rehashing the same material that didn't work in their favor before.

They are not beyond saving, but it isn't worth it. They aren't going to sell well, the damage has already been done and the concept is never likely to excel, it can merely hope to be passable. I do wish they'd just dropped it like a rock after it happened.

[Gabz Girl]

I've said this a million times already, but I'm very anxious to see the next Sonic game. It's been a long time since Generations and I do wonder if Sonic Team A has been working on the Anniversary game since then. That's a long development time and I hope it pays off. I'm crossing my fingers it's not a sequel to Generations but you never know considering Generations is so damn popular with most people (I think it's alright, nothing more).

[Alienrun]

Dude...seriously! Are your trying to tell me that things would magicaly be better if Lost World and Boom simply didn't exist! they're just games its not the end of the world! Do you really expect me to belive that they are that bad? Are you telling me you were optomistic about what the gens team was going to make next, but then LW and Boom "magicaly" ruined it for you?!

This just doesn't make any sense to me! One moment "OMG SONIC IS BACK!" then "Sonic games suuuuuuck!" and now "SEGA IS DOOOOOMED!!!! someone got fired! finacial crisis! ahhh!!!!" Like why must every opinion be so overly dramatic and be so sensitive to new sonic news! Is....there no in between? Yet alone, standard opinions that don't change on a whim because of 2 games made by different people! Must we get all fessed up EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME A NEW GAME IS REVEALED AND REALESED! (Heck i'll bet money a lot of casuals liked lost world, but were too afraid to speak up because of "bad reviews" ughh!)

"I don't think that's quite how it happened in this case though."

YES that is EXACTLY how it happened! No questions asked! Prove to me otherwise!!!! (People just don't know what they want in a sonic game anymore...or just have unrealistic expectations.) Whether it be people who CONSTANTLY complain about the games not being good enough or think that Sonic made by Sonic Team; A big mainstream company who probably doesn't care that whole awful lot about what the fanbase thinks (for obvious reasons); should only be A SPECIFIC WAY...REALLY REALLY REALLY make this fanbase, heck sometimes on the internet anyone who likes sonic in general (quite ironic), look really really bad!

Just be patient and don't act like a fanboy! (not trying to insult you, just something in general I think people should take note of!)

[Phos]

http://media.giphy.com/media/10RRNregziXmw0/giphy.gif

https://www.giflike.com/a/HCZWIb8/sonic-colors-wii-tas-egg-shuttle-in-38-50-75-wr

 

CLEARLY the same thing, dude.

 

 

 

(why would you link to a 38 second gif) There are rotating platforms in Tropical Resort that I swear I've seen in at least one mega man level, take a look at any slow bit from colors, it's almost always something you could do with 16x16 tiles. Cherry Armored Armadillo out of X is also barely representative of X and has little to do with the megaman I was talking about. 

[PerfectChaos]

(why would you link to a 38 second gif) There are rotating platforms in Tropical Resort that I swear I've seen in at least one mega man level, take a look at any slow bit from colors, it's almost always something you could do with 16x16 tiles. Cherry Armored Armadillo out of X is also barely representative of X and has little to do with the megaman I was talking about. 

38 seconds? It's 6

And you were saying half the game was just Megaman, and that's your explanation?

Weak. No offense

 

Edited July 18, 2015 by PerfectChaos

[Phos]

38 seconds? It's 6

And you were saying half the game was just Megaman, and that's your explanation?

Weak. No offense

 

It wasn't playing on my phone and the description said 38.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9JWe0ILFAY

The first minute it kind of tries to be like a Sonic game, then it sort of just gives up and puts on the veneer of one with some scripted loops in between square platforms and homing attack chains, because those are fun apparently?  

[PerfectChaos]

It wasn't playing on my phone and the description said 38.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9JWe0ILFAY

The first minute it kind of tries to be like a Sonic game, then it sort of just gives up and puts on the veneer of one with some scripted loops in between square platforms and homing attack chains, because those are fun apparently?  

I don't see the  issue with the "square platforms",  that's not inherently a bad thing and there's still a good sense of speed and level scale, and it certainly at least has its own identity, no other platformer plays like that. And scripted loops aren't any different to unscripted ones - you go through them. They're there. That's it.

 

But homing attack chains are pretty sucky, I agree.

Edited July 19, 2015 by PerfectChaos

[Badnik Mechanic]

 "Sonic in Megaman World" 

Nobody has ever made this complaint until now.

[Nepenthe]

I'm pretty sure the literal point of contention is that the platforming is blocky like typical Megaman platforming, which has been a complaint made since the game came out (although it was far more gauche to do so) unless I'm mistaken and Megaman's platforming isn't blocky? If anything though, this very debate seems symptomatic of a larger point in relation to this thread that the uphill climb towards better quality in the end didn't mean much not just because later games like Boom were so controversial in their badness, but also because the good games weren't notable in the context of their own merits. The best game out of the era was All Stars Racing Transformed, a karting spinoff.

[PerfectChaos]

I'm pretty sure the literal point of contention is that the platforming is blocky like typical Megaman platforming, which has been a complaint made since the game came out (although it was far more gauche to do so) unless I'm mistaken and Megaman's platforming isn't blocky? If anything though, this very debate seems symptomatic of a larger point in relation to this thread that the uphill climb towards better quality in the end didn't mean much not just because later games like Boom were so controversial in their badness, but also because the good games weren't notable in the context of their own merits. The best game out of the era was All Stars Racing Transformed, a karting spinoff.

Are you talking personal preference, fan consensus, critical reception or a mixture? Because ASRT is awesome but didn't strike me as the particular standout quality title during that era. And also, I think Colours did a better job of standing tall on the value of its own merits than Generations did (IMO anyway) which perhaps makes it more disappointing that Lost World wasn't very good.