Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Mauro Fonseca]

Which is why I specifically mentioned SLoW- it is, so far, the only game I know that keeps the theme of Sonic being willful to the point of stubborn-ness, but shows that that can have negative results, regardless of how well it shows that, instead of either attempting to humanizing him by removing said willfulness or just having everything work out fine because no wrong can come.

 

EDIT:

@Nepenthe

It's not that he has no flaws, it's that he has perfect control, at least for the purposes of the story. He doesn't lose sight of himself. He doesn't compromise. If you want to see how this kind of character can be done with flaws, there's, for an example, Watchmen. Rorscharch. Who'd endanger world peace, kill anyone in the way, and prefer to die rather than compromise. There's a lot you can explore on that direction, without having the werewolf story be yet another "oh no werewolf boo hoo lost control boo" story.

 

I'd also need a refresher on the cutscene, but I'm pretty sure the point with Dark Gaia wasn't "Sonic is so much more corrupted than the others that he changed physically", but "Sonic is so impossible to corrupt mentally he ended up physically transformed instead."

Edited October 3, 2015 by The KKM

[azoo]

To be honest, I used to Knuckles was actually Sonic's big-time competitive rival of sorts, but as time has gone by I've started to realize that must've been a thing that was only in American advertisement and things like the Archie comics, and then was shifted into the Japanese content starting with Sonic X. Which makes sense, because it seems to follow most of X's other ideas that also shoehorned the characters and their traits into boring anime stereotypes (which Sonic and Knuckles' personalities and rivalries both match to).

Most of Knuckles' beefs with Sonic in 3K and Adventure seemed to lay in his ignorance of what was happening around him. His gullibility as well as his desperate need to defend his turf led him to trust the wrong people in the process. Sure, Knuckles still seemed to have scuffles with Sonic here and there and maybe a semblance of a rivalry between each other, but nothing quite like acting boastful and constantly the one-upping each other back to back because nothing (even SA2) seemed to imply it. They're more like vitrolic best buds than anything else.

Which is why I specifically mentioned SLoW- it is, so far, the only game I know that keeps the theme of Sonic being willful to the point of stubborn-ness, but shows that that can have negative results, regardless of how well it shows that, instead of either attempting to humanizing him by removing said willfulness or just having everything work out fine because no wrong can come.

And I like that about it. It's just that, well.. yeah the rest of the game really does a terrible job of holding that point up, due to Sonic never getting his redemption, Tails treated like the ultimate good guy, and shit in the background just crumbling from bad writing. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Knuckles is meant as the positive competitive rival, and this seems clear to me even in the Japanese context in the early games. After a bit of confusion whether he was a villain or not (triple trouble etc), from the OVA to Sonic R to whatever, his role is always "look, I'm your friend, or at least tolerate you, but I'm also better than you". Using anime examples, that guy whose name I now miss who was Kenshin's "rival/buddy" in Rurounin Kenshin.

I guess the thing is more Western materials laid the "I'm also better than you" more than the "look I'm your friend" part until forced not to.

[Fake Hedgehog]

Sonic and Knuckles don't have an active rivalry though. They haven't had one since SA1 (or rather arguably at all, considering the basis of their fights hinged on a misunderstanding and not any actual alignment of personal goals to achieve before the other could which is what an actual rivalry is) outside of obvious competition vehicles where everyone is suddenly a rival to one another.

But Sonic & Knuckles haven't had an active rivalry for ages...they're fucking allies in Sonic Boom for goodness sakes.

They are rivals. They compete against each other and butt heads constantly. Even in the Boom series that's so far mutated from the OTP their rivalry is apparent.

I cannot believe people can say this isn't true. Its the entire framework of their relationship and basis of Knuckles as a character. Its mentioned in probably every official character you could find.

Rivalry doesn't mean enemy, this is what we're all talking about, right? Rival means adversary or competitor?

Sonic and Knuckles have an animosity. They're friendly rivals at best and brawling to exhaustion at worst.  They are rivals. I'm almost ready to screenshot and make webms/gifs from every game featuring these two.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I'll admit I haven't been paying much attention, but why're we arguing this? If anything SLoW was one of the first games in a while to bring this attitude back to the forefront with Knuckles' "I'd have done better" ribbing attitude Even if he effectively didn't contribute to the story, the writers clearly know he's supposed to be a friendly rival at least.

Edited October 3, 2015 by The KKM

[Nepenthe]

 

They are rivals. They compete against each other and butt heads constantly. Even in the Boom series that's so far mutated from the OTP their rivalry is apparent.

I cannot believe people can say this isn't true. Its the entire framework of their relationship and basis of Knuckles as a character. Its mentioned in probably every official character you could find.

Rivalry doesn't mean enemy, this is what we're all talking about, right? Rival means adversary or competitor?

Sonic and Knuckles have an animosity. They're friendly rivals at best and brawling to exhaustion at worst.  They are rivals. I'm almost ready to screenshot and make webms/gifs from every game featuring these two.

Because their arguments are not based on the attempt to achieve the same, singular goal at the expense of the other's success, which is what a rival actually is. It's based entirely on misunderstandings and stupid coincidences, which is obvious because whenever Knuckles understands the situation he either stops fighting with Sonic or doesn't fight with Sonic for an entire game. Fighting =/= rivalry.

[azoo]

Knuckles is meant as the positive competitive rival, and this seems clear to me even in the Japanese context in the early games. After a bit of confusion whether he was a villain or not (triple trouble etc), from the OVA to Sonic R to whatever, his role is always "look, I'm your friend, or at least tolerate you, but I'm also better than you". Using anime examples, that guy whose name I now miss who was Kenshin's "rival/buddy" in Rurounin Kenshin.

I guess the thing is more Western materials laid the "I'm also better than you" more than the "look I'm your friend" part until forced not to.

Yeah, I getcha I think. Still doesn't seem much like a rivalry everybody wants out of them though. Once again, more like vitrolic best buds (pick on each other and get on each other's nerves a lot but are still friends) and less like Gary Oak ("oh he's always trying to better me I'LL GET HIM") is how I see it.

They are rivals. They compete against each other and butt heads constantly. Even in the Boom series that's so far mutated from the OTP their rivalry is apparent.

I cannot believe people can say this isn't true. Its the entire framework of their relationship and basis of Knuckles as a character. Its mentioned in probably every official character you could find.

Rivalry doesn't mean enemy, this is what we're all talking about, right? Rival means adversary or competitor?

Sonic and Knuckles have an animosity. They're friendly rivals at best and brawling to exhaustion at worst.  They are rivals. I'm almost ready to screenshot and make webms/gifs from every game featuring these two.

The games/shows you'd refer to as the "OTP" (which does not mean what you think it means, lol) I'd say were a derailment of the stuff that came before it, to be honest. A lot of it really fits anime tropes, like how Sonic X and etc pretty much framed Sonic as your generic shonen hero, Amy as a yandere, Tails as a walking toolbox, Knuckles as a dumb "I'm angry, punch rocks!" grunt, and et cetera. The only times I can think of that Sonic & Knuckles were actually that big of rivals was in Sonic X too, so there's that.

And like KKM said, Knuckles is still in rivalry with Sonic in Lost World anyways, so what is your argument here?

Edited October 3, 2015 by Azoo

[Kuzu]

 

 

It's not that he has no flaws, it's that he has perfect control, at least for the purposes of the story. He doesn't lose sight of himself. He doesn't compromise. If you want to see how this kind of character can be done with flaws, there's, for an example, Watchmen. Rorscharch. Who'd endanger world peace, kill anyone in the way, and prefer to die rather than compromise. There's a lot you can explore on that direction, without having the werewolf story be yet another "oh no werewolf boo hoo lost control boo" story.

 

I'd also need a refresher on the cutscene, but I'm pretty sure the point with Dark Gaia wasn't "Sonic is so much more corrupted than the others that he changed physically", but "Sonic is so impossible to corrupt mentally he ended up physically transformed instead."

I think you're confusing moral compromise with mental compromise; In the context of something like Black Knight, sure Sonic would never compromise because its not in his personality to do so. The latter is completely different tho, this isn't Sonic's ideals being confronted, but an entity of literal darkness and negativity influencing his psyche. When everyone else is affected by this entity, but Sonic himself is not, and the only explanation given is that "he's too awesome, and therefore immune" that doesn't sound flimsy to you?

The reason for the criticism towards the Werehog is because the alternative that you speak of is boring and anticlimactic; there's literally no emotional weight to the Werehog's presence beyond just being a mild inconvenience for Sonic. Is the whole "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" angle cliche? yes, but cliche's aren't inherently bad and they're cliches because they're timeless tropes that people generally appreciate when written well. So yes, I would have definitely preferred the Werehog having some sort of negative side effect on Sonic and then reveal its Chip's influence that' helped him. It feels a lot less cheap.

Knuckles is meant as the positive competitive rival, and this seems clear to me even in the Japanese context in the early games. After a bit of confusion whether he was a villain or not (triple trouble etc), from the OVA to Sonic R to whatever, his role is always "look, I'm your friend, or at least tolerate you, but I'm also better than you". Using anime examples, that guy whose name I now miss who was Kenshin's "rival/buddy" in Rurounin Kenshin.

I guess the thing is more Western materials laid the "I'm also better than you" more than the "look I'm your friend" part until forced not to.

Sanouske Sagara?

 

 

 

They are rivals. They compete against each other and butt heads constantly. Even in the Boom series that's so far mutated from the OTP their rivalry is apparent.

I cannot believe people can say this isn't true. Its the entire framework of their relationship and basis of Knuckles as a character. Its mentioned in probably every official character you could find.

Rivalry doesn't mean enemy, this is what we're all talking about, right? Rival means adversary or competitor?

Sonic and Knuckles have an animosity. They're friendly rivals at best and brawling to exhaustion at worst.  They are rivals. I'm almost ready to screenshot and make webms/gifs from every game featuring these two.

 

Once again, they're on the same side more often than not and the only time they butt heads is played in a lighthearted way. This is really not the basis for a serious and competitive rivalry. 

 

In order for you definition to be true, then why the flying fuck is Knuckles teaming up with Sonic more often than not and even shown being friends? (Yes, even in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2) Shadow teams up less with Sonic for fuck's sake.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Mauro Fonseca]

 

I think you're confusing moral compromise with mental compromise; In the context of something like Black Knight, sure Sonic would never compromise because its not in his personality to do so. The latter is completely different tho, this isn't Sonic's ideals being confronted, but an entity of literal darkness and negativity influencing his psyche. When everyone else is affected by this entity, but Sonic himself is not, and the only explanation given is that "he's too awesome, and therefore immune" that doesn't sound flimsy to you?

No, because to me at least, there is no difference, at least where Sonic is concerned. I get that moral compromise is different from mental compromise, and great stories are made from that, but in the case of Sonic, his mentality is his morals. His sense of self is the only morals he follows, as they keep telling us but then not quite showing it as the implications of that are a bit more horrifying than it seems. You know, "If I don't show up don't criticize, I'm just living on my own feelings", etc.

 

So in this case, Sonic compromising mentally into the dark side would be a moral compromise too, because it'd be a loss of his self, which is his most prized thing. Not in a sense of arrogance (which I'd argue needs prizing one's self over the others, while he just prizes himself for himself), in a sense that it's what he depends on, it's what he likes, it's what he lives for, himself running and exploring the world and being Sonic, this ideal of Sonic the rebel from inhibitions and rules and whatever. Break that and suddenly he's not actually all that, he's someone trying to be all that. He's not Sonic, he's a hedgehog trying to be the ideal of Sonic. Which would also be an interesting story and all, but personally not the one I want, not from this hedgehog at least.

 

So no, having the explanation be "he's too stubborn and therefore immune" isn't flimsy to me- at most, I'd only have altered it with other characters, show them to be nearly as immune too. Personally, though. And especially if it offers the only interesting twitch on the werewolf I've seen short of Tezuka's vampires- where there's no loss of control, but also not the typical villainous "AW YEAH NOW I CAN KILL EVERYONE". It's a complete subversion- there's no mental change at all, except maybe him being a bit grumpier.

 

EDIT: And yeah, the character I was thinking was Sannosuke.

Keeping this theme of comparing Sonic characters to animu, I suppose I'd compare what I'm trying to describe with Sonic to Getter Robo. Not so much TTGL. Or actually, no, TTGL. Sonic is Kamina. Not the Kamina that dies in Ep 9, but the ideal of Kamina, the one who rescues them from the fantasies in the end, the one Simon worked towards being (Simon would in this case be the Hedgehog trying to be Sonic. Or Fox- always saw him comparable to Tails).

 

Put more simply even. I want two main characters in Sonic. An ideal, impossible, fantasy escape in the form of Sonic, and a more realistic, humane, character aspiring to be but not quite reaching there in the form of Tails.

 

I suppose.

Edited October 3, 2015 by The KKM

[Nepenthe]

It's not that he has no flaws, it's that he has perfect control, at least for the purposes of the story. He doesn't lose sight of himself. He doesn't compromise. If you want to see how this kind of character can be done with flaws, there's, for an example, Watchmen. Rorscharch. Who'd endanger world peace, kill anyone in the way, and prefer to die rather than compromise. There's a lot you can explore on that direction, without having the werewolf story be yet another "oh no werewolf boo hoo lost control boo" story.

 

I'd also need a refresher on the cutscene, but I'm pretty sure the point with Dark Gaia wasn't "Sonic is so much more corrupted than the others that he changed physically", but "Sonic is so impossible to corrupt mentally he ended up physically transformed instead."

"If you wanted x, why would you buy the thing where x is being heavily advertised and promoted instead of buying y" is a poor defense for, well, everything.

Also, I agree that there's a lot to explore, which is why I actually gave some ideas in my earlier posts (and indeed I find the idea of Sonic's control being the result of his bond with Chip infinitely more satisfying to the game's plot and themes). Yet you seem to think that I'm advocating for a traditional werewolf story while sticking to your guns that the most interesting way to explore this angle was "He's Jesus so the stakes never actually mattered." Seriously, "I'm always in control" is a boring-ass answer to the problem.

Also, the point of the beginning cut scene (and the one where Dark Gaia takes its change back) is that he does receive a shitload of energy from Eggman's machine and Dark Gaia's awakening. It's enough to rip him out of his Super State for God's sakes. It's obviously far more energy than what other people were exposed to, which was an amount small enough to simply be cleansed with the magic camera- a camera that also takes pictures of the Werehog in both the cut scene of its reveal and in the credits and is incapable of doing a thing for his condition.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Bowbowis]

I think you'd be right if he didn't revive Excalibur just from the sheer stubbornness alone. Like you said, it worked out for him in the end, so it's not like the game actually suggests he was wrong for doing that.

If they were going for that approach, they probably should have had that scene happen earlier when Merlina first transforms. Sonic charges her over and over again despite everyone telling him not to. Caliburn breaks as a result and Sonic gets beaten up, resulting in the knights having to go and pull him out of the situation. Then they leave to find a way to fix/power up Caliburn. Sonic comes back later actually ready for the fight, leading to the final boss.

I agree that Black Knight didn't follow up on the idea, and I don't really think that Shiro Maekawa was specifically trying to make a point about how Sonic's determination could be a weakness, it's just that the way the scene played out happened to illustrate it really well. I do think that The KMM is correct in saying that Lost World tried to explore the idea to some extent, but the whole thing just wound up getting lost in a deluge of ping-pong ball plotting and scattershot characterization. Thus I think that Black Knight is the better example, even if it was just a happy accident, since it does paint a clear picture of how Sonic's willpower could potentially backfire, even though doesn't ever do so ingame.

[Fake Hedgehog]

Because their arguments are not based on the attempt to achieve the same, singular goal at the expense of the other's success, which is what a rival actually is. It's based on misunderstandings and stupid coincidences, which is obvious because whenever Knuckles understands the situation he either stops fighting with Sonic or doesn't fight with Sonic for an entire game. Fighting =/= rival.

 

Fighting = rival because at the very least, both want the goal of winning the fight. Rival is synonymous with enemy but is used instead of enemy to denote a more light-hearted or trivial competition, which is what exists between Sonic and Knuckles

They beef over everything because each wants to be "better" than the other, fueled by Knuckles' quick temper and Sonic's cool cheekiness.

It's a classic Daffy Duck vs Bugs Bunny scenario. But I suppose you wouldn't consider them rivals either?

 

 

The games/shows you'd refer to as the "OTP" (which does not mean what you think it means, lol) I'd say were a derailment of the stuff that came before it, to be honest. A lot of it really fits anime tropes, like how Sonic X and etc pretty much framed Sonic as your generic shonen hero, Amy as a yandere, Tails as a walking toolbox, Knuckles as a dumb "I'm angry, punch rocks!" grunt, and et cetera. 

I can agree with this. 

And like KKM said, Knuckles is still in rivalry with Sonic in Lost World anyways, so what is your argument here?

ya dude I just said that the rivalry continues all the way into the Boom games. Why would I disagree with that? I didn't disagree with that.

[Kuzu]

No, because to me at least, there is no difference, at least where Sonic is concerned. I get that moral compromise is different from mental compromise, and great stories are made from that, but in the case of Sonic, his mentality is his morals. His sense of self is the only morals he follows, as they keep telling us but then not quite showing it as the implications of that are a bit more horrifying than it seems. You know, "If I don't show up don't criticize, I'm just living on my own feelings", etc.

 

So in this case, Sonic compromising mentally into the dark side would be a moral compromise too, because it'd be a loss of his self, which is his most prized thing. Not in a sense of arrogance (which I'd argue needs prizing one's self over the others, while he just prizes himself for himself), in a sense that it's what he depends on, it's what he likes, it's what he lives for, himself running and exploring the world and being Sonic, this ideal of Sonic the rebel from inhibitions and rules and whatever. Break that and suddenly he's not actually all that, he's someone trying to be all that. He's not Sonic, he's a hedgehog trying to be the ideal of Sonic. Which would also be an interesting story and all, but personally not the one I want, not from this hedgehog at least.

 

So no, having the explanation be "he's too stubborn and therefore immune" isn't flimsy to me- at most, I'd only have altered it with other characters, show them to be nearly as immune too. Personally, though. And especially if it offers the only interesting twitch on the werewolf I've seen short of Tezuka's vampires- where there's no loss of control, but also not the typical villainous "AW YEAH NOW I CAN KILL EVERYONE". It's a complete subversion- there's no mental change at all, except maybe him being a bit grumpier.

Well I just straight up disagree really, this doesn't sound like an interesting or engaging plot, but rather holding Sonic to an impossible ideal. That he apparently is just so fucking amazing that not even cosmic entities can compromise his mental state and that everyone else is just inferior because of it. Now sure, having other people's reactions to him would make for an interesting compromise, but the story isn't about other characters, its about Sonic & Chip. In fact, I know the perfect example of another type of character that follows the same mold that you hold Sonic to. 

Shirou Emiya from Fate/Stay Night. Long story short, he's basically how you would describe Sonic. Completely unflinching in his ideals and desires, and holds onto them despite everything he goes through (and he goes through a lot of shit). The kicker, this is not presented as a good thing and everyone else around him tells him how unhealthy a mentality like that is.  And its completely true, a character who is completely unfazed or bothered and single mildly pushes forward is not someone of sound mind and its ludicrous to present them that way. In most cases, he actually dies because of his attitude.

So yea, I don't agree that Sonic needs to be this paragon that is never compromised in any way, especially when its supposed to be portrayed as a positive thing. I don't empathize with a character like that, but rather question how can a character like that even exist to begin with, especially when they're the protagonist and therefore the character you're meant to empathize with the most.

 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Nepenthe]

 

Fighting = rival because at the very least, both want the goal of winning the fight. Rival is synonymous with enemy but is used

They beef over everything because each wants to be "better" than the other, fueled by Knuckles' quick temper and Sonic's cool cheekiness.

It's a classic Daffy Duck vs Bugs Bunny scenario. But I suppose you would consider them rivals either?

Now you're being pedantic. Everyone who fights wants to win, but to broaden the definition of rivalry to mean "fighting!!!" dilutes the term to meaninglessness. The classification of a rivalry and any conflict for that matter is based on the impetus for fighting as well as other factors such as scale and those affected, not the mere act of doing so. Knuckles doesn't fucking walk up to Sonic and punches him in the face so they can spar and figure out who's a better fighter. They fight because Knuckles believes Sonic to be a direct villain or in direct opposition to his neutral state of being, such as taking the Master Emerald shards. When he understands that Sonic's been framed, he doesn't fight him anymore because he has no reason to (which brings up the question of do you have any examples that Knuckles has ever stated in a game that he wanted to be better than Sonic or if that's just your personal interpretation). And indeed, they haven't actually fought in the story of a canon game since SA1. That was 16 years ago.

And Bugs and Daffy are rivals in the Hunting Season shorts because they are both directly competing for the same goal- not to be targeted by Elmer Fudd's shotgun. In other shorts, it's a one-sided rivalry on Daffy's part, but they nonetheless fit the bill more than Sonic and Knuckles have ever done.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

Fighting = rival because at the very least, both want the goal of winning the fight. Rival is synonymous with enemy but is used instead of enemy to denote a more light-hearted or trivial competition, which is what exists between Sonic and Knuckles

They beef over everything because each wants to be "better" than the other, fueled by Knuckles' quick temper and Sonic's cool cheekiness.

It's a classic Daffy Duck vs Bugs Bunny scenario. But I suppose you wouldn't consider them rivals either?

This ignores the motivations of both of the characters however; Sonic & Knuckles don't fight because they're trying to one up each other or even to attain a similar goal, they only fight because of a misunderstanding. This is literally how all of their fights go and when said misunderstanding is gone, they go about their business. 

Bugs & Daffy generally compete in things like Football, not being shot by Elmer Fudd, ya know competition. Fighting for the sake of it isn't a competition, its just a meaningless brawl. 

Your definition of "rival" is so broad, it loses meaning altogether; Sonic & Tails have fought once or twice, does that make them rivals too :V

Edited October 3, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Fake Hedgehog]

@allthesenonbelievers 

It's not that they're just fighting and that's the definition of a rival. I said that I understand the lighter tone "rival" denotes as opposed to "villain".

 

Sonic and Knuckles don't always have a real reason to give each other shit, but do anyway. They want to one-up each other even when they have no reason to fight, and their relationship is rejuvenated by this constant state of playful animosity, whether Knuckles is throwing a fist or Sonic is blowing a kiss. On the occasions that they DO have a real reason to butt heads, it is always a misunderstanding because it is maintained are both on the same team. Sonic and Knuckles are both "good". 

 This doesn't mean they aren't active rivals. The foundation of Knuckles' relationship to Sonic and consequently the foundation of Knuckles as a character is his adverse with Sonic. 

Let me get this straight again, you people are saying Sonic and Knuckles *aren't* friendly rivals in their resting state?

[Nepenthe]

Yes, that's what we're saying. Playing this disagreement up as a Biblical battle between those with salvation and those without (Seriously? "Non-believers? This is like the fifth time you done this and the second time a mod's noted it; cut it out) and reiterating your opinion without examples or proper definitions isn't really going to convince those of us making the opposing argument. If it's as obvious as you're implying, then it should be easy to find concrete examples direct from the mainstream Sonic games (not their marketing) that emphasize that they're constantly trying to one up and snipe at each other? Cut scenes, text dialogue- anything will suffice.

[Kuzu]

@allthesenonbelievers 

It's not that they're just fighting and that's the definition of a rival. I said that I understand the lighter tone "rival" denotes as opposed to "villain".

 

Sonic and Knuckles don't always have a real reason to give each other shit, but do anyway. They want to one-up each other even when they have no reason to fight, and their relationship is rejuvenated by this constant state of playful animosity, whether Knuckles is throwing a fist or Sonic is blowing a kiss. On the occasions that they DO have a real reason to butt heads, it is always a misunderstanding because it is maintained are both on the same team. Sonic and Knuckles are both "good". 

 This doesn't mean they aren't active rivals. The foundation of Knuckles' relationship to Sonic and consequently the foundation of Knuckles as a character is his adverse with Sonic. 

Let me get this straight again, you people are saying Sonic and Knuckles *aren't* friendly rivals in their resting state?

Ya know, you'd probably have a better time convincing people if you bothered to support your argument with actual factual evidence; like, I'm a pretty advent Sonic fan and remember most games pretty well. I don't recall a time when Sonic & Knuckles ever fought just to try and one up each other, or fight just for the sake of it. 

The only time I can remember that being a thing was in the comic books, and that was over 20 years ago, so its not even really relevant to the current interpretations of the characters. Hell, even in the comic's current events Sonic & Knuckles are more friendly with each other. The most  recent fight to date, which was a couple months ago in fact, they were in a tournament, ya know, a competition. For fuck's sake, Sonic even offered to forfeit the match just so Knuckles could get back to searching. Yes, Knuckles prodded him for a fight anyway, but not out of animosity towards Sonic but to just blow off some steam and to give the spectators a good show. 

 

So yes, please give examples of Sonic & Knuckles fighting to "One up each other" without any misunderstandings between the two :V

 

[Dr. Mechano]

@allthesenonbelievers 

It's not that they're just fighting and that's the definition of a rival. I said that I understand the lighter tone "rival" denotes as opposed to "villain".

"Rival" and "villain" aren't even mutually exclusive. Case in point, Sonic Team has referred to Sonic and Eggman as rivals:

As long as there's a sense of competitiveness to their enmity, it counts. Doesn't even have to be at running fast, necessarily; There can be a competitiveness on the battlefield as well. They don't even have to be fighting on the same terms; Sonic fights with brute force, and Eggman with his machines, but there's still a sort of rivalry that underscores their conflicts. Eggman wants Sonic defeated so that he can conquer the world, yes, but he also wants to prove he's better than him at the same time, and considers him (in his own words) an admirable adversary. So yeah, sometimes a villain can simultaneously be a rival.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Fake Hedgehog]

 

Yes, that's what we're saying. Playing this disagreement up as a Biblical battle between those with salvation and those without (Seriously? "Non-believers? This is like the fifth time you done this and the second time a mod's noted it; cut it out) and reiterating your opinion without examples or proper definitions isn't really going to convince those of us making the opposing argument. If it's as obvious as you're implying, then it should be easy to find concrete examples direct from the mainstream Sonic games (not their marketing) that emphasize that they're constantly trying to one up and snipe at each other? Cut scenes, text dialogue- anything will suffice.

I'm not trying to make any biblical references and I cut out the Roger Satan Smith stuff a couple pages back. Non-believer just means people who don't believe what I'm say is true. Chill fam.

There are so many examples that prove Knuckles is Sonic's rival that I can't possibly believe even that would convince you; I can only think that there must be some sort of misunderstanding on the definition of rival.

but you keep saying you understand what it means, yet Knuckles has no rivalry with Sonic.

I was just watching the Black Knight cutscenes and upon seeing Knuckles, Sonic smirks and says "Hah! You look just like this Knuckle-head I know!". Knuckles shouts some stuff about protecting his honor and Sonic gives an exasperated expression says "Geeze, you shound just like that Knuckle-head too"

Hostile and cheeky for no reason?

[Kuzu]

I'm not trying to make any biblical references and I cut out the Roger Satan Smith stuff a couple pages back. Non-believer just means people who don't believe what I'm say is true. Chill fam.

There are so many examples that prove Knuckles is Sonic's rival that I can't possibly believe even that would convince you; I can only think that there must be some sort of misunderstanding on the definition of rival.

but you keep saying you understand what it means, yet Knuckles has no rivalry with Sonic.

I was just watching the Black Knight cutscenes and upon seeing Knuckles, Sonic smirks and says "Hah! You look just like this Knuckle-head I know!". Knuckles shouts some stuff about protecting his honor and Sonic gives an exasperated expression says "Geeze, you shound just like that Knuckle-head too"

Hostile and cheeky for no reason?

You realize the context of that scene right?:  That's technically not Knuckles, its Gawain, who was ordered by his superior officer to capture and kill Sonic. Secondly, Sonic needs Gawain's sword to defeat Arthur to begin with, so that's Sonic's reason to fight. Notice how both characters have a reason to fight other than "I don't like you" like you're trying to say.

 

[TearForFear]

The way you completely dismantled Short-Sleeved-Nook's happy, genuine and NOT OFFENSIVE WHATSOEVER post back in page 7, and the fact that the majority of you have the same negative opinion about Pontaff, makes me wonder why the Sonic Stadium and the Sonic Adventure 3 facebook page are still deadly enemies.

Because, as I understood while reading this topic, you and them share the same opinion and some of the same "bully attitude" towards those pure innocent unlucky people who dare to like Colors, Generation and Lost World.

Edited October 8, 2015 by TearForFear

[Kuzu]

The way you completely dismantled Short-Sleeved-Nook's happy, genuine and NOT OFFENSIVE WHATSOEVER post back in page 7, and the fact that the majority of you have the same negative opinion about Pontaff, makes me wonder why the Sonic Stadium and the Sonic Adventure 3 facebook page are still deadly enemies.

Because, as I understood while reading this topic, you and them share the same opinion and some of the same bully attitude towards those pure innocent unlucky people who dare to like Colors, Generation and Lost World.

So disagreeing with someone means we're bullies now?

 

[Dr. Mechano]

The way you completely dismantled Short-Sleeved-Nook's happy, genuine and NOT OFFENSIVE WHATSOEVER post back in page 7, and the fact that the majority of you have the same negative opinion about Pontaff, makes me wonder why the Sonic Stadium and the Sonic Adventure 3 facebook page are still deadly enemies.

Because, as I understood while reading this topic, you and them share the same opinion and some of the same bully attitude towards those pure innocent unlucky people who dare to like Colors, Generation and Lost World.

As one of Pontac's and Graff's staunchest defenders, I have to disagree with you. There's no bullying here. There's dissent and disagreement, both hallmarks of mature discussion. I've never once been insulted or berated for liking Pontac's and Graff's work, nor have I done the same to their critics. I think most of the people in this thread have been very respectful toward each other, on both sides, even if we disagree (sometimes very passionately) about the tone of the series.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Nepenthe]

There are so many examples that prove Knuckles is Sonic's rival that I can't possibly believe even that would convince you; I can only think that there must be some sort of misunderstanding on the definition of rival.

but you keep saying you understand what it means, yet Knuckles has no rivalry with Sonic.

I was just watching the Black Knight cutscenes and upon seeing Knuckles, Sonic smirks and says "Hah! You look just like this Knuckle-head I know!". Knuckles shouts some stuff about protecting his honor and Sonic gives an exasperated expression says "Geeze, you shound just like that Knuckle-head too"

Hostile and cheeky for no reason?

Saying there are so many examples that it's just so obvious is simultaneously a non-argument and condescending. If it's so obvious, it shouldn't be difficult to point out in either SA2, Heroes, ShtH, Sonic 06, Generations, or Lost World where the bulk of Sonic and Knuckles' mutual interaction is based on trying to outdo each other. If you can't or refuse to, the only thing to conclude is that your argument is unsupported. Subsequently, Black Knight isn't a relevant example because Galahad is not actually Knuckles, and Sonic even notes this in the dialogue you pointed out.

Just as well, perhaps the misunderstanding is on your end. You have failed to both to cite a decent definition for the word "rival" and point out any working examples. You just keep saying "Well, it is and I don't understand why people think differently." That isn't an argument.

The way you completely dismantled Short-Sleeved-Nook's happy, genuine and NOT OFFENSIVE WHATSOEVER post back in page 7, and the fact that the majority of you have the same negative opinion about Pontaff, makes me wonder why the Sonic Stadium and the Sonic Adventure 3 facebook page are still deadly enemies.

Because, as I understood while reading this topic, you and them share the same opinion and some of the same bully attitude towards those pure innocent unlucky people who dare to like Colors, Generation and Lost World.

I was undoubtedly the most hostile towards that post, but it's mired in the textbook attitude that plagues narrative-in-gaming discussions where people asking for better stories are seen as asking for too much from a multi-billion dollar industry staffed by paid professionals, that paying attention to and critiquing the narrative and the quality therein is "crap" (their words, not mine) that's completely irrelevant in lieu of Sonic and Tails simply being cute and animated for a few hours. Not only is it the most condescending way to express contentment with the narrative (Mechano, Puli, and others have defended the Pontaff games to varying degrees and no one has gotten angry at them for it), but this dismissiveness is something I've butted heads with tons of people across the fandom for literal years. I have no patience for it anymore so I'm personally not going to be mild-mannered just because the post had no direct attacks, profanity, or personal insults.

Just as well, painting anyone else who likes what are the undisputed most well-received 3D Sonic games in years as some poor, bullied, oppressed minority is some of the most fragile, passive-aggressive shit imaginable. It's completely shortsighted not only in terms of direct comparison to what actual bullying and oppression is in the real world, but also in light of the fact that Pontaff fans have it amazingly good compared to people who like any of the games that have come beforehand whose reputations have degraded far past any of the modern games', if they weren't already considered trash upon release. I honestly wish sometimes I had genuine love for these games and could fit in with a crowd where the only thing I had to deal with concerning interacting with fans who disagree with me online is people simply not liking the games and being particularly vocal as to why, versus being personally implied to either be literally stupid, a 12 year old idiot, blinded by nostalgia and thus completely unreasonable, or being the actual fucking reason that the whole franchise was ruined by people perpetually angry at Adventure fans, fans of Shadow as a character, and Sonic 06 fans. The first three things were actual posts and topics on SSMB, some from people participating in the thread right now, and the latter was an actual article posted up Retro during Sonic 4's marketing cycle. 

Seriously, a Pontaff fan acting like they are on the bottom of the Sonic Fan Food Chain is as analogous to a First World Problem as you can get.