Does SSMB prefer Adventure to the Classics?

[Drawloverlala]

prefer the classics and 2d gameplay.. mostly because to me..its way more easy to adapt to it...with 3d games.. i always fall countless times to cliffs no matter what haha.. it happends to me in Sonic generations, Sonic Adventure games, Shadow the Hedgehog... i'm not so pro at games like my bros

i really enjoy 2d plataform games.. (though i also enjoy the 3d boost games and its amazing speed) and besides of various reasons already mentioned by some of you that i really agreed about it.. i find also.. way more confortable for me to play the 2d style (90's classics and Sonic Advance like games )

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Drawloverlala

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

And I don't understand why that gets all the praise instead of S3&K tbh.

Does it?

Uh, no, I think most agree that the Classics are most solid games. Even I agree with that, but the thing is, even though I agree with that, I don't really, you know, care about the Classics. The only ones I enjoyed are 3&K and CD.

3K because I actually legitimately have fun with that one, it actually feels like an adventure, and CD because of its atmosphere and aesthetics. But beyond that, I'd take Sonic Adventure 1 or Sonic Adventure 2 any damn day of the week. Because I enjoy the story and characters. At the end of the day, that's what matters the most to me. Plus, the gameplay of speed stages actually feel like platformers in 3D, if buggy.

 

But that's me. I care about that stuff the most, other people care more about gameplay. That's fine. Those two things aren't really exclusive.

Yeah, I can understand that. My own older sister loves the modern games and just isn't interested in the classic games for the same reason.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I hate the classics. Im not sure if I am the only one who hates them. I just hate them. I hate the design, I hate how boring and dull like they are and I hate that theres nothing special for Sonic.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Does it?

Yeah, I can understand that. My own older sister loves the modern games and just isn't interested in the classic games for the same reason.

It depends on who you ask, but most critics seem to always claim CD was the best of the entire series.

[Nepenthe]

Another thing is, as I always say with topics concerning people's perception of opinions, there's always a wider social context to consider in terms of what those opinions mean and how different people respond to them. Basic media literacy/McLuhan stuff dictates that media itself does not exist only on the objective qualities present within specific works. There's always the wider social context to consider when trying to understand why people react the way they do to certain works- how saturated that media is, how that media is delivered, and what that media reinforces and reflects in terms of our culture among other things. If you're not going to recognize or entertain that context, it's very easy to look at media with tunnel vision and gauge social contexts that aren't necessarily accurate or meaningful, ex., "hype backlash" being something that only angry attention-seekers do, rather than perhaps an equal and opposite reaction to a period of time where a work may have been unfairly praised.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if Adventure fans here seem more prominent, more vocal, and even more mean/bullish on here than what's deserved or warranted towards classic fans, there are probably reasons for that. One thing must be made clear before I delve into my theories: most Adventure fans/SSMB regulars on here do not actually hate the classics or consider them bad games. You literally will not see that opinion stated prominently around here. I myself started with Sonic 1 on the Genesis; I'm literally a year and a half older than the franchise so it'll be near impossible to peg me as someone who had the "misfortune" of starting too late. These games are not unfairly treated nor underrated by any stretch of the imagination. I stand by what I said earlier: They're simply anathema to discussion in the same way that Sonic 06 is, in that there's not actually a lot to talk about anymore because the consensus has been set in stone for years. There's only so many ways you can say "omg, Sonic 1/2/CD/3&K are the best Sonic games ever!!!" Debate and conversation instead will always thrive when there's differing points of view.

Back to the point, there's a context to the Adventure fans' behavior on here that can be explained by a multitude of observations. First and foremost is that the lauding of the classics has not just been done in a vacuum. They've naturally drawn comparisons to the rest of the series which is considered hopelessly inferior to them. Rare is the conversation that can happen about the rest of the games without someone coming in to remind everyone that these games are bad/flawed/not as great as the classics regardless of how you actually frame the conversation or whether or not the reminder was even necessary, as if we're completely oblivious to or stupid about this reality. The general gaming environment where people are less likely as non-fans to give the 3D games any real analysis is worse in this regard. In exalting the classics as the holy grail, the rest of the series has been shat on continuously for that same amount of time; Yin and Yang and all that. That'll breed resentment from the fans whether or not that's the intent, so they'll be more likely to bunker down and find places free from the constant judgement.

Second is the fact that, as a result of this culture, classic-focused media gets more attention from Sega already. The classics themselves have seen the most ports out of pretty much any other video game aside from maybe Pac-Man and Tetris. The merchandise is overwhelmingly focused on classic Sonic. The game franchise itself in recent years as begun to eschew a lot of the more high-concept, narrative focused stuff for design decisions that are blatant attempts to pander to people who prefer the classic games. So not only has the environment to discuss these titles and ideas without as much unnecessary prodding, judgement, and dog-piling long since been whittled down to nothing, but these fans probably also feel like the games are actually reinforcing that negativity by ignoring even the simplest of things that they like such as alternate characters, stories that matter, and even meaningful movement in the actual third dimension.

Following from that: high amounts of information overload and exposure will lead to burnout in some people. I personally haven't played a classic game in years and have no desire to despite the fact that I know they're not bad games. But the thought of playing them repulses me to think about it, because from my viewpoint I've never been able to actually get away from these games' existence as a social Sonic fan. It's not like Crash Bandicoot or something where the franchise's death, my lack of community participation, and lack Sony console means that Crash can actually exist as a nostalgic memory for me, free of any negative associations of its potential aging or its inferiority compared to other platformers. Crash Bandicoot can actually have a positive, mythical association in my brain. But Classic Sonic- to me- is fucking everywhere and will be everywhere so long as I'm a Sonic fan existing in an environment that has long since concluded we can do no better and thus we must ride these games out forever.

Third is the fact that SSMB strives to be a haven for more open-ended debate than most other gaming sites, and at the same time also lacks a particular focus on any specific era or type of Sonic media. As a general Sonic site, there are hubs for every subculture- Archie, SoTC, Boom, etc.- to gather and communicate their thoughts with one another with the chance of finding more empathy than what might be available on classic-focused websites like The GHZ (is that even still around?) and Retro, or more general gaming sites like NeoGAF where- again- the deck is stacked even further against the 3D game fans due to the community's lack of personal investment not warranting the expending of energy to listen to minority viewpoints. And because SSMB advocates and encourages longer and more rigorous forms of debate, different ideas and games will be able to find more validity as people learn really quickly to formulate arguments in defense of media they like. And as we already established, media with more polarized viewpoints simply lends itself more to constant discussion than media with homogenized viewpoints. Those with the time, energy, and debate knowledge go through a lot of fire defending their favorite 3D games, moreso than you would otherwise with the classics since they need no defending, and thus you're not going to be able to easily bullshit to and undermine those who've got their shit together.

In conclusion: you've got a group of people whose games, ideas, and very identities as gamers have been attacked for decades by both general Sonic fandom and the wider gaming culture at large, who probably feel that the last outlet they had to actually entertain themselves in the face of this continual dismissal- the games themselves- are being changed to favor a more classic aesthetic, finding a forum whose goal is to foster open debate simply based upon the validity of one's logic underpinning their argument. SSMB is the perfect haven for 3D game fans to turn the tables and get their say in. And again, the vocal nature is not borne of actual hatred of the classic games on their own merits. It's a natural reaction to the fact that they're on the bottom rung of the gaming ladder.

Classic fans, as attacked and undermined as they may feel on here in recent years, literally have the rest of the world to back up their thoughts, thus I feel no actual sympathy. It's easy as shit as part of the majority to not develop the coping skills necessary for handling criticism of a status quo you subscribe to until you find yourself in an environment where it's more common than what you're personally used to. As I said elsewhere, it's nothing more than emotional fragility, the Sonic fan equivalent of a First World Problem/White Male Privilege/etc.. Even then though, there's nothing actually stopping any of you from making topics celebrating the classic games anyway. Passion is unlimited; just because I pour my energy into celebrating Unleashed means diddly squat to your ability to form your own hubs, topics, and events celebrating the classic games too. Trust me, the servers have more than enough space to handle it.

[kirby1up]

personally due to how I was introduced to the series with sonic 2 being my first genesis game I played at a dentist and sonic adventure 2 was borrored from a friend and played on my wii(with a gamecube memory stick and controller)because of my lack of experience with video games period at that time (the wii was the first system I got prior to then I basically played either educational or licensed pc games on my moms old computer or a small selection of games at friend's houses) I basically had no other experiences with other games hence why I enjoy the shooter and emerald shard hunting sections were as I know a good chunk of people hate those areas 

so really i'm netural on this subject of classic vs modern and because of my above reasons I wound up growing up enjoying both line up of games roughly about the same

[Komodin]

Well, this particular SSMBer have no big preferences for the Adventure games over the Classics, even though he went full speed into the series with Adventure 2. If he shows any such things, it's because he's just a bit bored and tired of talking about the Classic games all the time at this point. With how there's such a (somewhat justified) positive, universallish reception to them, he at least finds that the Adventure games open themselves up to more varied sorts of discussions to have.

[FantasticMrRobb]

 I prefer the Adventure games to the Classics, but that's just how I've always been. Not because I don't think they're fun, but because I've never really enjoyed them like others do.

But I would say that most people here tend to like Adventure.

Maybe you should have made a poll?

[Myst]

I would like to clarify that I regard the Genesis games as some of the best videogames ever made. I guess I prefer the art style and narrative of the Adventure series, but the gameplay of the classics. (Though I do like running around a 3d enviroment..) Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it really does boggle my mind how anyone, especially a Sonic fan, could hate the classics.

[Kuzu]

Because the classics are generally regarded as perfect and untouchable, there's literally nothing much to talk about them because I'm sure everyone here realizes its an era of Sonic that's long gone and never coming back.

[shdowhunt60]

I honestly don't feel like the classics are nearly as perfect as people make them. I find 1, 2, and CD as frustrating as all get out to play. The only game that I can sit down, play, and just enjoy is Sonic 3 & K, and that has to do with the game being an absolute masterpiece of game design, along with its strong sense of narrative suspense.

Sonic Adventure is a bit of a different story though. Yeah, I get it, the gameplay is flawed and buggy. Yeah, it doesn't have physics and it has scripts, boost pads, and a bunch of other things that people complain about that I don't honestly fucking care about. What I love about the game is that it's a Sonic Adventure. And that's the sticking point for me. The game is about going on adventures, going to exciting places, meeting people, doing cool things.

And honestly, I think it's a fucking travesty that it's been since Sonic and the Black Knight since we've had an adventurous Sonic game. I try to play Generations nowadays, and it really just feels like playing it is just going through the motions. Yes, whatever, Generations is a better game than Adventure, I don't care. I don't have fun playing Generations anymore. I have fun playing Adventure.

[Agie]

Admittedly, I prefer the Adventure duology to the Classics, myself. Sonic CD is the best of the classics for me, but as far as best in the series, Sonic Adventure 2 has that place even after all these years.

[Covskin]

I mostly agree with what Nepenthe has said, but I also wanted to check the results of last year's SSMB Top 100 Video Games poll that Tornado ran. It seems to have got lost in the wipe, but I saved a copy. Listing only the Sonic games in the Top Ten:

1	Sonic the Hedgehog 3: And Knuckles
2	Sonic Generations
3	Sonic Adventure 2
6	Sonic Unleashed
7	Sonic the Hedgehog 2
10	Sonic Adventure

Sonic 3 & Knuckles won by a huge amount as well, though the original Sonic and Sonic CD were a fair bit lower down the list (below Sonic Heroes, which was...controversial).

SSMB likes Sonic. Well, mostly.

[Regen]

Thanks everyone for your replies, you have all been very courteous and wonderful so it's much appreciated.

I do disagree with the statement that the Classics have been discussed to death though. Sonic 3AK has here (which ironically people don't seem to have a problem discussing ad infinitum here), but I don't think Sonic 2 gets discussed much but okay, I get everyone knows that's a fucking amazing game. Yet it's odd that people discuss the intricacies of Sonic 3 but not Sonic 2, I think they are on near equal footing. With Sonic 1 there's almost never a discussion and that game actually is starting to get called into dispute due to ageing level design. I don't see many combating the revisionism about CD not being that good either, though there is a bit of support for it. There's a lot to discuss there. And honestly, I don't think the SSMB has a problem discussing things into the ground since discussion here usually revolves around the same things over and over again:

When are we going to get a Sonic Adventure style plot?

When are we going to have multiple playable characters again?

Are we never going to get another Sonic Adventure 3D style Sonic Game?

Why do Classic fans get all the fan-nods?

When are pinball physics coming back?

E.t.c.

These aren't bad discussion points, but they get discussed multiple times every single week I think it's fair to say  . It's in human nature to be quite repetitive, I certainly am on here.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Regen

[Nepenthe]

It's not about which topics are discussed to death; it's about which discussions invite disagreement and thus influence one to add one's opinion to a discussion. People talk about the intricacies of Sonic 3 because they believe it's the best game, however Sonic 3 in general doesn't get a lot of topics on here because it's not interesting discussion to reinforce solid consensuses. At that point, you're trying to wring blood from a stone. The case is different for media of mixed reception because a back and forth can actually be formed due to the higher amount of differences in viewpoints. There's no meaningful back-and-forth to be had with 99.9% of people circle-jerking that S3&K is amazing or even that Sonic 06 is fucking terrible (hence why multiple topics about the latter are banned here).

You're also ignoring the other factors regarding how our social atmosphere came to be, that being: Adventure fans tend to be dismissed as 12-year old tasteless "autistics" who ruined the franchise by supporting bad games, meaning they're going to be more defensive and thus vocal in places like SSMB where the platform is actually open for them to humanize themselves, have a voice, and defend their favorite games against the tide of dissent. Also, the high threshold for debate here means that the populous that likes these games and engages in debate intelligently are going to be more prepared to refute the bullshit. In short, classic fans don't have the privilege of running over Adventure fans here like they do practically everywhere else, because a good deal of Adventure/3D game fans here actually know what the fuck they're actually talking about. And they're going to talk about it as much as they want, because they don't get to anywhere else. Classic fans have the entire world to reinforce their opinions. SSMB just happens to be a place where anyone else who has their emotional attachments elsewhere can reinforce theirs. If not having total control of the dialogue or it not being totally biased in your favor bothers you, then as I said, start some positively-oriented classic topics.

[kdotj24]

Maybe I WOULD enjoy the Adventure games over the Classic if the camera didn't suck ass, and the non-Sonic levels were actually good. 

[Dr. Detective]

When most people say that they want the "Adventure formula" back they mean that they want the Sonic characters to play similarly to what Sonic played like in the Adventure games. The technical nuances and subjective details on how well it would function or be changed for a game coming out in 2016 doesn't really matter much. It should be relatively easy to guess that's what they mean by virtue of not going into a conversation and thinking the person you're talking to is a drooling nostalgia panderer who doesn't actually know what they want.

Individual people definitely know what they want. The fanbase as a whole community just looks like it doesn't because we individually all want different things.

It's just one of the things that upsets me about topics regarding fans of a certain type of Sonic game and how people tend to react to them that I usually see from time to time.

[Diogenes]

When most people say that they want the "Adventure formula" back they mean that they want the Sonic characters to play similarly to what Sonic played like in the Adventure games.

I don't think that's as safe an assumption as you make it out to be. I've seen plenty of people defending various degrees of alternate gameplay.

[Nepenthe]

The characters can have significant variance in goals and movement parameters so long as it's still a linear platformer. There's no real reason for everyone to be Sonic clones because that doesn't justify their existence in canon gameplay all that much. Tails having a racing focus and a unique boarding level a la SA1 is an example of such a thing. If all alternate gameplay is automatically bad and even that example counts as alternate gameplay, well-p. *shrugs*

[Dr. Detective]

I don't think that's as safe an assumption as you make it out to be. I've seen plenty of people defending various degrees of alternate gameplay.

I do. 

Defending the alternate gameplay isn't the same as thinking it's a good idea to bring it back. I've defended it often in the past under certain circumstances but I'd often find it a hassle trying to explain to other people that it doesn't mean I think they should bring it back. Defending it often just constitutes an admission towards being able to take or leave it or generally enjoying it for what it is but not as confirmation that it's completely necessary for the product.

Not to mention, we can only go by our own experiences here. If you've seen people say they want more Sonic games with alternate gameplay back (and not just people defending the already existing titles) then I understand that position. My experience hasn't shown that to be the case though. I'm just advocating that people be more open minded and not assume so much that leans towards the negative.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Dr. Chaotix

[Bolt]

Now that I think about it, I too am burnt up on the Classic love everywhere else, and in merchandise. The first retro plush and T-shirt are alright,  but it feels like more stuff is classic inspired, and there's only so many ways you can rehash the same 5 neo-classic artwork over and over again. I've been lucky to have found some more casual fans outside of places like here who do enjoy games past the classics (or even prefer them) and don't mind discussion of them. That being said, it's only a few people, and outside of them, the 'classic rules' mentality is still in full force, along with the general hating on 06 and ShtH, and making fun of me for even so much as daring to say I enjoy those games unironically. A game is a game, and people liking a game does not depend on how many perceived flaws it has by the vocal percentage. Not to mention also being criticized for NOT liking CD, or for enjoying the Chao gardens.

I don't hate the classics in any way, I'm just tired of seeing that direction being where the games keep going to, non-fans obsess over, merchandise exploits, and more. Over saturation of anything can get grating.

[Writer's Blah]

I've always considered myself a bit of an odd child, and that's no thanks to the year I was born in (1995), an era immediately right before 3D games were even a thing. Obviously, I didn't play video games as an infant, but I did watch my dad play a good deal of Super Mario All Stars for the SNES, which means I was naturally shocked with awe when I first played Super Mario 64. And to be quite frank, that game is probably the one that has cemented most of my opinions on gaming as a whole, in conjunction with both Sonic Adventure games. I was exposed to both the classic Sonic games and the two Adventure titles simultaneously, but I hovered more towards the 3D titles, because, quite frankly, I was just better at them. I bring this up because that's where a lot of my tolerances for SA1 and 2's more controversial elements comes from. Knuckles stages in the 3D games reminded me a lot of the stages in Mario 64, something I loved and was familiar with. Combining that with the fluidity of gliding, wall climbing, and speed just made me really enjoy exploring those environments, and why nowadays, I'm unnaturally good at the treasure hunting segments. But what I love most about the Adventure series (and S3&K) is how much the games contextualize the platforming genre as a whole. Sonic's world feels very cohesive and filled to the brim with lore and stuff we just plain don't know about, but have received enough context within the game world to actually wonder about. Nobody I know of has ever given a second thought to why a Super Mushroom in the Mario games makes people larger, or why stars hold as much immeasurable power as they do. But the difference is that the Chaos Emeralds (and to a lesser extent in other media, the rings) have been given just enough in-universe explanation for their powers that you're left wondering about their history, their creation, and so on.

This is also why I hold the extremely unpopular opinion of considering Sonic 2 to be vastly overrated. It's the Sonic game with the absolute least amount of context within the main series. I understand there's more to a game than just context, but to explain myself, I'll be drawing comparisons with Sonic 1. Sonic 1 holds a narrative that is explored through its progression of zones. Going from Green Hill Zone to Scrap Brain and everything in between draws an underlying theme in the battle between nature and technology. Marble and Labyrinth Zones show that the world is advanced enough for there to be ancient ruins and relics of some distant past, while Spring Yard and Starlight Zones show that Sonic's world has a civilization quite similar to our own, with sprawling cities and entertainment centers.

Sonic 2 expands on some of this with Chemical Plant, Casino Night, and Aquatic Ruin, but it's a retread at best, and uninspired at worst. Sonic 2 feels very video gamey, which is something that the Mario series had been doing for much longer. Believe it or not, I also don't really care for Sonic 2's more liberal use of speed, because unlike Sonic 1 and 3&K, speed is more of a reward for doing well, and is less incorporated into creating anything substantial within the level design itself. I'm not saying none of the level design does this, but it's very clear that Sonic 2 was created with the intention of being faster than Sonic 1, without really considering the intentions of what that would mean for the game as a whole. There's more times in Sonic 2 where you have to come to a screeching halt to do a platforming segment, whereas in Sonic 1, the speed was a lot more uniform and more in tandem to maneuvering around obstacles skillfully. Heck, even the introduction of Tails isn't given a whole lot of context beyond the manual and future expansion in games to come; he's just some kid who's following Sonic around for some reason and figured out a clever way to keep up with him and fly while he's at it. I mean, you could argue that for any character, but I feel every other character got much better context in their introduction game than Tails (well, except for Big and Cream, arguably Omega as well). Now, to give the game credit, it did introduce the concept of the Death Egg saga, and solidified Robotnik as a more dangerous threat and permanent rival to Sonic and his friends, and heck, the game itself is still a lot of fun as a game. The spin dash is a great idea that only got better as the games went along, and the pinball physics were expanded on from Sonic 1, and is possibly in league with 3&K for their best usage.

But yeah, that's my little tirade that might contextualize myself as to why I love the Adventure games so much, because of what I value out of the Sonic franchise. It's also why I sort of have a vendetta against Lost World and Sonic 4, because they retroactively invoke images of the environments of Sonic 1 and 2, without giving them proper context. Sonic 3 & Knuckles had very few environments similar to the previous two games, and CD is such a trip that I don't think anything has even attempted to invoke nostalgia on it beyond Metal Sonic showing up every now and then, but it feels more like SEGA going, "Hey! Remember the classic games? These game look soooooo much like the classic games, don't they?" instead of actually utilizing the reasons why people liked the classics to begin with, in addition to abandoning the context that had been established so well in CD, 3&K, and even Sonic 1. I have no idea how to conclude this post, so I'll just end it here so people can remind me about everything I got wrong on Sonic 2 and how the things I'm complaining about hold relevance in the Adventure titles.

[ZDozer]

I don't get how Classic fans are the majority.

Then again, look at the place I came from, the country where the biggest Sonic site, Planeta Sonic, is spearheaded by a retard that spreads false information in order to keep Modern fans satisfied and very blind to the truth about the franchise's situation. The only real good site in Brazil, Power Sonic, is almost lost to its ostracism. It's something I've always wanted to show here, to talk about here, to show how fucked up the brazillian fanbase is.

Classic fans doesn't seem like majority down here in this shithole of a country, so I want to get the full picture of how big the Classic fanbase really is now that I seemingly have actual contact with the real bulk.

Edited November 11, 2015 by ZDozer

[Blacklightning]

The characters can have significant variance in goals and movement parameters so long as it's still a linear platformer. There's no real reason for everyone to be Sonic clones because that doesn't justify their existence in canon gameplay all that much. Tails having a racing focus and a unique boarding level a la SA1 is an example of such a thing. If all alternate gameplay is automatically bad and even that example counts as alternate gameplay, well-p. *shrugs*

I don't think anyone here is asking for everyone to literally be a Sonic clone so much as just having a basic unifying thread of gameplay mechanics and traits to tie them all together. Losing a life because you lost a playful race with Sonic is a little odd, but people can take that because it's still for the most part based on the same fast, free-flowing point-to-point platforming they already bought the game for and Tails's innate abilities don't impede that in any way (if anything boosting them, if you take it from anyone who's ever speedrunned Windy Valley). But why would you ever make a character slow and clunky in a Sonic game to make up for their strengths? It's not asking a lot that characters at least move and jump similarly to each other, or at the very least be able to attain a brisk pace through their own means (seriously, making the Werehog less Spiderman and more God of War is such a missed opportunity >_>;).

Similarly, if you're going to introduce "alternate gameplay" to a Sonic game, why lock it to one character? We've seen it before - Sonic knows how to pilot the Tornado, everyone can board to some extent if we're going off Riders, and as much as I loathe using Rise of Lyric as an example, at least it didn't restrict the Enerbeam to one character. I guess you could say it's consistent inconsistency, which can work even though it doesn't sound like it makes a whole lot of sense. And like the snowboarding example you mentioned, I personally feel it's better if these gimmicks are just stage gimmicks rather than game-wide ones to begin with, because if people like it it's a nice bonus and if they don't, it doesn't overstay their welcome - everyone wins.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Wow someone agrees that not everyone should be a Sonic clone