38 replies to this topic

[jutgf]

It says so in Wiki and everywhere else Shadow is Sonic's rival instead of Knuckles. Is that true? If so, I wonder how much Sonic can have fun with Shadow in terms of competition.

[Eternal Xtreme]

Dude have you not been keeping up with the current games? Knuckles (after Sonic adventure 2) some how magically became one of Sonic's closest friends. Knuckles been lost that title as "arch rival". Now I wouldn't as far and say Shadow is Sonic's Arch rival. Shadow is more like the anit hero that pops up at random times just for fans (like me) sake. That "arch rival" title still belongs to Eggman (robotnik)and I don't think that will be changing anytime soon.

Edited by Black suit Shadic, 13 September 2009 - 05:37 AM.

[Diogenes]

Shadow seems more a boring turd than a rival.

Honestly, the potential is there, as they've got comparable abilities and contrasting personalities, but it doesn't actually happen. In SA2 and ShtH they were on opposite sides when they fought, in Heroes it was as nonsensical as any other fight (and about the same in Battle, since everyone fights everyone all the time in that game), I don't believe they fought at all in '06...

I mean, if they're supposed to be rivals, they really should act as rivals once in a while...

[Nepenthe]

In response to Black, I still consider Eggman Sonic's arch-enemy. They aren't rivals to me as they don't quarrel to obtain the same exact goal, such as a title or a privilege. Their conflict stems from a direct opposition in interests: one who wants to preserve the world versus one who wants to gain control of it. Eggman could care less about Sonic's reputation. He just wants the bugger out of the way and isn't above trying to kill him to achieve that. This is more telling of an enemy than a rival.

Regardless, I don't even believe that Shadow should be a rival either. As you said Diogenes, they hardly ever quarrel or even do so for significant reasons anymore. Like Knuckles, their overlying morals are just too similar for them to bother fighting, especially since Shadow has his own legacy as the Ultimate Life Form. Not only that, but he's too pompous and serious to engage in a friendly rivalry with Sonic in the first place, always turning down his offers for hobby racing. If you ask me, only Jet and Johnny are Sonic's true rivals. Everyone else who could be considered a rival is really Sonic's ally who may fight with him because their egos grew to big or their personality quirks happened to rub against one another the wrong way.

Edited by Nepenthe, 13 September 2009 - 06:31 AM.

[MarcelloF]

I'd like seeing Knuckles as Sonis rival again. It's more fitting than Shadow.
But I think in some Manuals it says that Eggman see's Sonic more as a Rival than a enemy nowadays.

[jutgf]

In response to Black, I still consider Eggman Sonic's arch-enemy. They aren't rivals to me as they don't quarrel to obtain the same exact goal, such as a title or a privilege. Their conflict stems from a direct opposition in interests: one who wants to preserve the world versus one who wants to gain control of it. Eggman could care less about Sonic's reputation. He just wants the bugger out of the way and isn't above trying to kill him to achieve that. This is more telling of an enemy than a rival.

Regardless, I don't even believe that Shadow should be a rival either. As you said Diogenes, they hardly ever quarrel or even do so for significant reasons anymore. Like Knuckles, their overlying morals are just too similar for them to bother fighting, especially since Shadow has his own legacy as the Ultimate Life Form. Not only that, but he's too pompous and serious to engage in a friendly rivalry with Sonic in the first place, always turning down his offers for hobby racing. If you ask me, only Jet and Johnny are Sonic's true rivals. Everyone else who could be considered a rival is really Sonic's ally who may fight with him because their egos grew to big or their personality quirks happened to rub against one another the wrong way.

Shadow has morals? News to me, he usually starts trouble and fights whoever opposes him.

[Nepenthe]

Shadow has morals? News to me, he usually starts trouble and fights whoever opposes him.

As does nearly every character in the series.

Regardless, how does Shadow's aggressiveness negate the fact that he has enough of a moral boundary to make decisions that promote the safety of the planet and his allies as well as a healthy free will?

[-Mark-]

I dunno, I've never really considered Shadow as a rival character for Sonic. As others have said, Knuckles has simply become a friend in recent years and whilst Eggman generally fills the role rather well, I'd say he's still more of 'the villain' (if not quite a genuine 'enemy'), so whilst meeting pretty much all of the criteria he doesn't really feel like a rival as such, either.

I think there are actually a few character types that Sonic as a series is lacking, actually. Jet's actually an interesting character, I felt, in that he's genuinely just a rival for Sonic based purely on the aspect of speed.

I still think the Sonic series is missing a total badass 'mofo killing machine villain. Metal Sonic would fit the bill quite nicely (as did Shadow in episode 73 of Sonic X, but that was a one-off), but he's been rather poorly-used, really.

[CapnCloudchaser]

I still think the Sonic series is missing a total badass 'mofo killing machine villain. Metal Sonic would fit the bill quite nicely (as did Shadow in episode 73 of Sonic X, but that was a one-off), but he's been rather poorly-used, really.

We need Metal Sonic/Metallix! They were like the Daleks of the Sonic world in the Fleetway comics. We need Sonic-Daleks!

Edited by CapnCloudchaser, 13 September 2009 - 10:11 AM.

[JaidynReiman]

Shadow typically faces off against Sonic in a form of rivalry in absolutely every game that they share together. The only exception I can note where there wasn't a "Sonic vs. Shadow" boss fight was in Sonic '06. In SA2 they establish their rivalry, and in many consecutive games they constantly face off against one another as rivals, including Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle, and Shadow the Hedgehog (Sonic is constantly bugging Shadow, and though Shadow can choose to become more friendly towards Sonic, that doesn't necessarily happen).

Sonic '06 breaks the trend by having them act a little more friendly with one another. But Sonic and Shadow still face off against each other in Sonic Rivals and Sonic Rivals 2. In fact, I do believe that Shadow has TWO boss battles against Sonic in Sonic Rivals 2, or am I mistaken? Then there's Sonic Chronicles, where Shadow is three bosses, including one "Sonic versus Shadow" fight. And, of course, Lancelot acts as a pretty big rival in Black Knight, whom is technically just Shadow. There's even a more powerful version of Lancelot whom can be fought later.


Knuckles has had some rivalry with Sonic, but its never really been that prominent. In Sonic 3 Knuckles was tricked into going against Sonic, the same in Sonic & Knuckles. In Sonic R the game manual does refer to Knuckles as "Sonic's rival," but its never really showcased in-game. Knuckles even helps Sonic find the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 3D Blast. Sonic the Fighters doesn't really have that much of a plot, and everyone faced against one another, not really one specific person. Same goes for Drift 2.

Of course, they're rivalry does slow down after the 3D games begin, but once again, even in the early games it wasn't really that prominent. Only in a couple games is it really shown or mentioned. Adventure does continue it at about the same speed as it did before. The only difference with Adventure and Adventure 2 in those regards is that Knuckles wasn't tricked by Eggman in SA2. Knuckles does still show off his rivalry with Sonic in a few more games, too, those being Sonic Advance 2 (once again, though, Knuckles is tricked), Sonic Battle, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rivals, Sonic Rivals 2, Sonic Chronicles, and Sonic and the Black Knight.

In the rest of the games it really isn't mentioned.


EDIT: Oh, and I'd like to add something else. A "rival" is typically someone with similar goals and/or abilities with a character whom doesn't really try to stop the character in question, simply trying to be better. Knuckles really doesn't do this much, if at all, even in the classics. The only reason Knuckles ever went against Sonic was because he thought Sonic was a villain trying to steal the Master Emerald.

Shadow does this quite often, always trying to be better than Sonic. So does Jet and Johnny, both mentioned above. In that respect I'd have to say that they're better rivals than Knuckles, even. Metal Sonic is another character of note, but Metal Sonic doesn't appear as often.

Some may identify Eggman's actions as "rival-like," but he's not really a rival at all. He's Sonic's "arch-foe," not an "arch-rival."

Edited by UltimaHedgie, 13 September 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[Ice King]

I just wanted to say that rivals don't have to be similar.

Bowser canonically calls Mario his rival in several games, after all, and they're about as different as Eggman and Sonic.

Eggman and Sonic have fought the most, and have a steady respect for one another. I'd call them rivals, definitely. Even the developers seem to agree to that much, as in Eggman's Heroes manual profile.

While their styles are different, at the end of the day, Sonic and Eggman are two egotists who on some level want to prove they're the best.

Edited by Dr. Mechano, 13 September 2009 - 12:44 PM.

[Sion-Ta]

I never got why Shadow is constantly referred to as Sonic's rival... Their rivalry... kinda died after Sonic Adventure 2. I see people keep bringing up points like how they're very competitive with each other over who's the fastest... Ignoring SA2 and Heroes since everyone was willing to kill each other in that game, when did such a thing happen? From what I've seen, they barely interact with each other anymore...

Shadow was also the only rival in Black Knight... not to get some sort of character arc with Sonic; Blaze seemed to hold some sort of respect for Sonic, while with Knuckles they had that whole chivalry thing going on... Shadow on the other hand just stayed in the background and folded his arms... he does that a lot, maybe he should get a sweater. o_O;

So yeah... I don't really see how Shadow can be Sonic's rival... since he's barely even a character anymore.

[Nemain]

We need Metal Sonic/Metallix! They were like the Daleks of the Sonic world in the Fleetway comics. We need Sonic-Daleks!

Highfive! XD

Seriously, reading this post did make me think. The Sonic series as a whole seems to lack someone who is a true bad guy, one that would NEVER side with Sonic. Nearly every single one of the "rivals" Sonic has had in all the games and even in the cartoon series all show some sort of alignment with Sonic at some point, even if it is only temporary. Obviously I cannot properly comment on Mephiles as I have not played Sonic '06, but let us go through the key rivals Sonic has had in the past...

Knuckles

Used to be against Sonic due to being brainwashed by Robotnik into believing Sonic wanted to steal the Chaos/Super Emeralds. Due to the nature of the rivalry it could only ever be considered temporary as soon enough Knuckles saw he had been tricked. Every game after that point, Knuckles has always been aligned with Sonic. If there was any rivalry again it was only because Knuckles had been tricked, and even then that rivalry is more focused on Rouge in the later games.

Silver

Again, was tricked into being a rival by Mephiles. Soon realised his mistake and sided with Sonic after he died in order to resurrect him. As for his apperances in Sonic Rivals and Sonic Rivals 2 the simple clashing of paths the two characters took temporarily generated a little rivalry, but certainly nothing permanent. Who hasn't bashed heads with someone when both going for the same goal when both want to be the best at it? It's not so different. At his worst I'd say Silver was a neutral character.

Shadow

The focus of this topic. I have never seen Shadow as a direct rival to Sonic, not even in SA2. Strange I know, but I never did. Shadow in SA2 only knew of what his memories were telling him. Would he have been evil and gone after Sonic and challenged him like he did if his mind hadn't been messed with by Gerald? I doubt it. Remember that Maria's last wish was for him to make everyone happy, and when he realised this he, along with Sonic, stopped the ARK from crashing into Earth. I can see how the two characters can square up to each other in out-competing one another due to their similarities in skills and power (and this is often a feature in the games, take Sonic Vs Shadow in SA2), but ultimately they are equals and I believe Shadow is leaning towards accepting that in later games. Doesn't mean he -likes- it, but the two at least passively tolerate one another rather than maliciously go for each other in the later games. There'll always be an aspect of competition between the two though.

---

So far, everyone who has been a rival/enemy to Sonic has been brainwashed or tricked into doing so. See a pattern?

---

Robotnik

Even Robotnik has worked with Sonic several times in the past, typically when a plan goes wrong (reference: SA2). They always seem to resume to squaring off against each other in the end though.I must agree with the general thread consensus that Robotnik remains one of the only true enemies Sonic has as he inevitably resumes his pursuing of destroying Sonic, but could you call him a rival given that the two have completely different goals?

If he was evil enough to enjoy causing Sonic obvious pain when turning him into the Werehog in Unleashed, I don't doubt that he wouldn't think twice about killing Sonic given the chance to. Then again... Why would he destroy him if torturing him is so much more fun? And when Sonic has so many potential uses if things go wrong? Robotnik is out to make sure he gets the best of any situation and making sure his hide is safe in the process. If that means teaming up with a rival or enemy he'll do it, but only when it suits him to do so.

Metal Sonic

Metal Sonic showed some small sign of not being truly evil in the OVA. At the end of the movie when Sonic goes to save Metal, he pushes his hand away and says "There is only one Sonic". I took that as Metal accepting that Sonic was the better of the two of them and admitting defeat gracefully. Of course you COULD also take that as him going "I WILL NEVER ADMIT YOU ARE BETTER THAN ME!" but I didn't. Another point is that in the movie it is shown he has all of Sonic's memories and abilities when Sonic is trapped by Robotnik and Robotnik transfers Sonic's memories and abilities to Metal. Whereas a rivalry could exist due to the two being so similar (Shadow and Sonic again?), essentially if Metal IS Sonic then he can't really be his rival, or even that evil. I believe it is his realisation of this that made him say what he did before he died in the movie.

In other games, Metal just seems to be Robotnik's pawn in destroying Sonic. If you take the games alone, then yes, Metal is truly Sonic's rival. They have never sided in any of the games I have played, nor did they show any sign of doing so. But again, Metal can be reprogrammed to side with pretty much anyone. He's a robot. Does this mean his rivalry to Sonic is any less valid? Given the similarity of the two, I'd say no. Sonic can be rather persistent in his competitiveness...

Jet the Hawk

Another of what I would call the true rivals to Sonic but not in an evil way, just a competitive way. Jet enjoys winning and being faster than everyone so even though he concedes Sonic is the better racer, that doesn't mean he wants to beat him any less than before. If you put the two in a race together the sparks would always fly.

... Phew. I'll stop there for now.

I don't see it as a weakness that the series doesn't have a "true" evil rival to Sonic. I like the way that SEGA makes characters more multi-dimensional by showing them doing things that goes against the stereotype of a typical villain. It would be nice to see more of these rivalries developed though, even if they are benign in nature. If the potential is there, why is it not being used? Why does everyone just get along? ARGH! FIGHT ALREADY!

Edited by Nemain, 13 September 2009 - 12:52 PM.

[JaidynReiman]

Frankly, I find rivals to actually "BE" competitive typically. They aren't usually enemies at all. Eggman and Sonic certainly have entirely different goals, and a number of times Eggman even tries to KILL Sonic, even in the games. This is quite rare, though (SA2 being a prime example). As the prior poster mentioned, a similar thing goes in Unleashed, though it is more of Eggman showing glee at Sonic being in pain.


Jet's a rival, plain an simple. He and Sonic are very competitive, both having one goal in mind: being the Fastest Thing Alive. Frankly, I see a similar situation with Shadow. He claims to be the Ultimate Life Form, so he tries to prove that he is, and frankly, he enjoys facing off against Sonic, even if he won't admit that. He also works for his own goals often and doesn't like it when Sonic interferes.


As for a "true villain that never joins Sonic's side," there have been a number of them. However, I'd have to say that the most recurrent one is Eggman Nega. Nega truly is the "negative" of Eggman, since at least Eggman has a heart in some respects and doesn't want to see the world destroys. Nega is just filled with pure destruction, and in every game he's been in he's been the biggest threat. And frankly, I don't think Nega is done with just yet.

Others have also appeared in that respect, but they don't always fight directly against Sonic, and in EVERY OTHER case (save Nega), the villains were one-time. These include Mephiles (Mephiles barely interacted with Sonic at all, though... he interacts a lot with Shadow and Silver, but Sonic doesn't even see Mephiles until the last story, and its only a few seconds before Mephy kills him), Black Doom (like Mephy, though, he interacts more with Shadow), Erazor Djinn (except that its in a storybook world... technically Erazor helps Sonic, but not by his own free will), and the Black Knight (while not turning out to be the main villain, The Black Knight still never helps Sonic... Sonic actually destroys him before anything else; and like Erazor, it was a story book world).

[Ice King]

Frankly, I find rivals to actually "BE" competitive typically. They aren't usually enemies at all. Eggman and Sonic certainly have entirely different goals, and a number of times Eggman even tries to KILL Sonic, even in the games. This is quite rare, though (SA2 being a prime example). As the prior poster mentioned, a similar thing goes in Unleashed, though it is more of Eggman showing glee at Sonic being in pain.

I think Eggman is showing glee at defeating Sonic. It's not that he wants to cause him pain, so much as he doesn't care whether he's in pain or not.

Eggman tries to kill Sonic, in the same way Bowser tries to kill Mario- Nothing personal, but he's got a world to conquer, and as long as the hero's alive, he can't do that.

Really, the relationship between Eggman and Sonic is incredibly like Bowser and Mario, who are officially described as rivals even in the in-game dialog. For me, this is enough cause to consider them rivals in that sense alone.

[eboni]

While I hate Knuckles. And I mean hate, I must say he's fallen so hard. He went from being a badass who could knock Chaos Emeralds out of people to being Sonic's overly gullible lackey. As for Shadow, I think not. He's right up there with helping Sonic save the world, maybe not in the same way, but he's there.

[Roarz]

Shadow is gay >=(.

Edited by Roarey Raccoon, 13 September 2009 - 02:56 PM.

[Crystal Kingfisher]

We need Metal Sonic/Metallix! They were like the Daleks of the Sonic world in the Fleetway comics. We need Sonic-Daleks!

I don't even know what Daleks is.

But as for Shadow, he was Sonic's rival in SA2, then after that he's mostly been helping Sonic. Silver, I never finished Sonic '06 (because it sucked so much), but from what I played of it, he's Sonic's new rival.

[JamieDawg]

I'd like seeing Knuckles as Sonis rival again. It's more fitting than Shadow.
But I think in some Manuals it says that Eggman see's Sonic more as a Rival than a enemy nowadays.

This is true, it all started back in Sonic Heroes, which I thought was stupid. (even though I loved that game to death)

I still miss Knuckles' role of being Sonic's rival, but in Sonic Rivals 2 Knuckles and Sonic did act like rivals, which was nice.

Shadow was bad ass in SA2 and in that game he could be called a rival, but now, he's become a joke. He randomly pops out of no where and goes all "I don't like this blue hedgehog, I'll kill him!" nowadays.

Edited by Tizo Teh Hedgie, 13 September 2009 - 04:12 PM.

[American Ristar]

I don't even know what Daleks is.

A Dalek is an alien-robot thing that looks like an upside down garbage can, with lightbulbs and toilet plungers on it.

As for Shadow. Even though they haven't really continued to take the character in this direction, I see him as a Venom kind of twisted justice character. Especially after his work with GUN. He's a living weapon that decided to turn that to good, like Venom, who still wants to eat your brains, but in the name of good. I think Sonic Team realized that tricking Knuckles again and again would turn him into a complete idiot, so they let Shadow take that role from him. He's kind of settled his rivalry with Sonic, so I dunno what to call him. Anti-hero is probably best.