192 replies to this topic

[Slingerland]

http://sonicstadium....whats-in-a-name

In summary, I talk about why "Sonic 4" is the worst name that SEGA could have picked due to the lofty expectations that come with it. Other things addressed include:

- Why the fanbase isn't "unappeasable." It's SEGA who cannot execute the standards that they set.
- Why rehashing old stuff isn't taking "Sonic 4" beyond "Sonic 3 & Knuckles," like sequels should do.
- How using "modern" Sonic is a kick in the nuts.
- Why SEGA isn't fully committed to a retro reboot.

Please read it and try to understand where I am coming from. I'd like to be given a little thought before I'm murdered.

[Indigo Rush]

I'll give it a read.


*reads*

I think that there's no shame in putting in a throwback to the first few games. But again, there's maybe three seconds of footage to go by, and people are judging this game by the paragraph as if it's just been released (not targeting you, Slingerland, I'm just saying in general)

So that's my opinion. Sonic 4 is a game I stopped waiting for after Sonic Adventure came out, and now that it's showing up again with the hedgehog wagging his finger at me again after all these years, I can safely feel that this is the first time I've hyped over a Sonic game with a clear head.

Seriously, I wen bonkers over 2006 and praised it to high heavens even after 3 months of a release, and Unleashed I spent my precious hours drooling over: I can say with a clear mind that Sonic 4 is something that I didn't expect, didn't want, but am now desiring and anticipating this game with a cautiously optimistic and level-headed (mostly, I did crack a little earlier) mindset.

Edited by Indigo Dude, 06 February 2010 - 01:19 PM.

[Professor J]

You said everything I was thinking and more.

This is why I dislike the NSMB series so much, adding in everything that made the old games so good is great and all but unless you expand upon it then all you really have is the old games in a new package.

The classic games were amazing because like you said, you never really knew what to expect, but given the precedent they've set in the Rush and Advance games I'm expecting the obvious 7 Zones with predictable themes + Special Stages then Super Sonic boss fight with nothing exciting or unexpected along the way.

This isn't OUR Sonic game and anyone who ever thought it was is incredibly niave, this is just another Sonic cash cow with a '4' at the end.

I don't give a shit about this game until I can see they're putting some effort into this, classic SFX and pulleys aren't enough to buy me over.

[Dreadknux]

Three seconds of footage, guys. Three whole seconds.

Still, Brad's entitled to his opinion, and at least it's well worded. :3
I don't subscribe to the idea of auto-conclusions that this game "is not for us" though. We need to see more before that is really and truly decided.

I mean, I can understand the immediate backlash against, say, Sonic and the Black Knight. But this...

[Carbo]

This isn't OUR Sonic game and anyone who ever thought it was is incredibly niave, this is just another Sonic cash cow with a '4' at the end.

Sonic has been a cash cow ever since it went into 3D but being given the term doesnt negate it's status as being made for a certain demographic.

[Leonard]

I couldn't agree any more with everything you've said.
We've already long established that exactly what YOU described in the article, is what everybody is waiting for. This is the announcement that we've been waiting for for years, finally a chance for Sonic to clear his name.

So I really think it's important we raise our opinions and settle the issues right now, before we even give them a chance to come to what we've seen regarding the games in the past years. Even if it's just those 3 seconds, we've got plenty of stuff that is already iffy.

They keep stressing that this is their game for us, so I think we shouldn't have to apologize for anything. Call me overly dramatic, but the way I see it, it's NOW OR NEVER. Especially considering the meaning that is obviously behind the title "Sonic 4".

Three seconds of footage, guys. Three whole seconds.

Gotta read inbetween the lines...uhh, I mean seconds. :3
That's exactly what he did.

[Professor J]

Sonic has been a cash cow ever since it went into 3D but being given the term doesnt negate it's status as being made for a certain demographic.

Well, Sonic Heroes really. While they were far from perfect the amount of detail put into SA1 and 2 is outstanding, you only need to look at Rouge's report on Project Shadow to realise that.

The reason I'm so irratated by what we've seen so far is because once again it seems as though they've drawn all their classic inspiration from Green Hill Zone and disregarded the other god knows how many zones of classic material. Spinning flowers, crab based enemies, checkered hill levels and rotating special stages, I've been there and done that a millions times over.

The classic games were edgy in a surreal sort of way, three seconds is enough to show me that they've clearly missed the point here and instead gone for bright colours and Rush style locations.

The only post S3K game I've played that (probably accidently) managed to recreate the classic feel almost perfectly in terms of environments is Sonic Rivals 1.

[gato]

I wanted to ignore this article since I readed and it looked like a WAH WAH SUPERHORN, and it make me feel all dissapointed and RAEG'd, but since it's in the forum like wanting to claim attention (and I am resisting an impulse to do backseat modding)...

- Why the fanbase isn't "unappeasable." It's SEGA who cannot execute the standards that they set.

I still think the standards are set by the fanbase.

- Why rehashing old stuff isn't taking "Sonic 4" beyond "Sonic 3 & Knuckles," like sequels should do.

Agreed, and I would use the "3 seconds footage" thingy but that also applies to me, maybe you are right and I don't have any idea, so I can't say that.

- How using "modern" Sonic is a kick in the nuts.

That's marketing for you, for much classic gameplay they told you they were going to do, if they used modern Sonic in their teasser you wouldn't be excited, you would be as you are right now and feeling like SEGA is lying to you.

Still, I am with you in this.

- Why SEGA isn't fully committed to a retro reboot.

I readed the whole article and I haven't seen any of this D:

Also, could you point me exactly when SEGA said they were doing a reboot? (BTW Back to the roots isn't a reboot).



Anyways as you can see for the begining of my post, I didn't like the article, still, I pretty much agree with you in some points. D:

This is why I dislike the NSMB series so much, adding in everything that made the old games so good is great and all but unless you expand upon it then all you really have is the old games in a new package.

Err... did you enjoyed "Megaman 9"? Just a question...

Because one of the complaints of the fanbase is that this games isn't "Megaman 9", just "NSMB" (wich they look exactly the same to me, sans for the graphics)

And according to your post, what you are asking is something more like "NSMB" than "megaman 9" (because you know, the new moves and stuff, that helps to expand gameplay AFAIK).

Me confused.

EDIT: Then again, you could have a whole different opinion to the rest of the fanbase and really want something completely new, then I agree with you

Edited by imarafan, 06 February 2010 - 02:53 PM.

[EXshad]

Ugh.

That was a fantastic read that actually kinda changed my opinion on a few things, such as my thoughts on all the returning concepts and the like...until you started complaining about getting "the new Sonic".... it's the same freakin' hedgehog, dude. With green eyes (which I add DID appear in Sonic 3) and spikes that I admit are a little too long. But he's stubby, and the world and baddies are finally consistent with the surreal look that fans have seemingly been crying for. SEGA never lied once; they said "Sonic returns in a new 2D adventure". So where's the lie? I don't see it. Sonic has slightly changed appearance in each Genesis outing he's appeared in, even as proof in the teaser's intro... I don't understand all the hate.

People complaining this much about Sonic's look almost makes me think people are willing to ignore all the returning elements that we have been clamoring for just because Sonic's not exactly the way we remember him on a console with limited technology. Sonic has changed over time, but besides the slightly long spikes, they pretty much nailed him. At least in my opinion. People are gonna complain, but SEGA didn't lie; you lied to yourself. No game is perfection, whether we wanna admit that or not, especially in the eyes of a fan-base this divisive.

Edited by EXshad, 06 February 2010 - 03:06 PM.

[Slingerland]

So where's the lie? I don't see it.

Here's my reasoning from the article:

They invoked the winged ring back on 9.9.09. They made a whole forum skin around the Genesis sprites. The “Hedgehog Day” flash ditty was classic Sonic coming out of a hole. Classic Sonic was coming back. Even the trailer had a classic Sonic retrospective!

SEGA inundated us with classic Sonic leading up to the announcement so I thought that we were going to get classic Sonic. We didn't. Judging from that, I do not think SEGA is fully committed to the old-school.

I wouldn't have a problem with modern Sonic if the game wasn't "Sonic 4." Unfortunately, the game is called... "Sonic 4." Most of the commentors, including yourself, are missing the connection between the name and the character's design.

[Leonard]

People complaining about Sonic's look almost makes me think people are willing to ignore all the returning elements that we have been clamoring for just because Sonic's not exactly the way we remember him on a console with limited technology. Sonic has changed over time, but besides the slightly long spikes, they pretty much nailed him. At least in my opinion. People are gonna complain, but SEGA didn't lie; you lied to yourself. No game is perfection, whether we wanna admit that or not, especially in the eyes of a fan-base this divisive.

It's not perfection we're calling for. It's changing the obvious mistakes that actually CAN be easily changed. Things that don't really coincide with what Sega promised us.

[EXshad]

The inundated us with classic Sonic on more than one occasion that I thought that we were going to get classic Sonic. We didn't. Judging from that, I do not think SEGA is fully committed to the old-school.

I wouldn't have a problem with modern Sonic if the game wasn't "Sonic 4." Unfortunately, the game is called... "Sonic 4." Most of the commentors, including yourself, are missing the connection between the name and the character's design.

But dude, that's where you lose me. WHAT modern design? I've watched that trailer, and with the exception of the quills, it looks like the Sonic 3 design smoothed into this one almost perfectly. He's stubby, happy, even has signs of a small lil belly. I concede about the quills, really, they're too long, I get that. But that's all I can see in it about not being perfect. Like I said, Sonic changed in each outing on the Genesis anyway! Why didn't people complain about that back then? Or rather, how could you expect SEGA to base this Sonic on nothing but the "classic" design when each one was fairly different? I mean, just compare the Sonic 1 sprites to the Sonic 3 ones (and he even had green eyes in the latter example, at certain points).

This game, from what I gather, is based around reintroducing old concepts in a bold new 3D perspective. With that in mind, I actually get why you think Sonic 4 could be a bad title, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm baffled at how many people not only expected Sonic to look "Genesis" like, when he never had a defined look in that era to begin with, but are enraged by it. As I said, I agreed with many things in the article that now kinda bother me, but this.... gives me a headache just trying to wrap my tiny little mind around it.

It's not perfection we're calling for. It's changing the obvious mistakes that actually CAN be easily changed. Things that don't really coincide with what Sega promised us.

What promise?! When did SEGA explicitly say "this will be an entirely classic Sonic title with no influence from the newer concepts and designs?" Was the promise in the title, or something? Please enlighten me.

Edited by EXshad, 06 February 2010 - 03:25 PM.

[Professor J]

I still think the standards are set by the fanbase.

Considering this is a direct sequel to S3K at the very least it should live upto those games, otherwise what's the point? The standard for this ge was set by S3K, why should we accept any less? Unlike Unleashed, BK, ShTH, STH06 this isn't a game we can just pretend never happened if it falls short, this is a direct continuation of Oshima's original vision of Sonic the Hedgehog; fucking this game up is simply unacceptable. Hence why the title Sonic 4 is highly unappropriate unless they are willing to put 100% into it, which of course is very unlikely.

That's marketing for you, for much classic gameplay they told you they were going to do, if they used modern Sonic in their teasser you wouldn't be excited, you would be as you are right now and feeling like SEGA is lying to you.

Don't advertise something as being classic when it doesn't even use the classic designs for the main characters.

Honestly, considering how hugely popular retro Sonic merchandise is I am completely baffled by why they chose to use modern Sonic.

[Dreadknux]

Considering this is a direct sequel to S3K at the very least it should live upto those games, otherwise what's the point?

You don't know that it doesn't.

[Leonard]

What promise?! When did SEGA explicitly say "this will be an entirely classic Sonic title with no influence from the newer concepts and designs?" Was the promise in the title, or something? Please enlighten me.

Maybe promise is the wrong expression yeah. :/
But honestly, didn't they say it was specifically aimed at us, the fans of the older games? Is it really too much misinterpreting to think that what they would deliver would be exactly along those guidelines?

[EXshad]

Maybe promise is the wrong expression yeah. :/
But honestly, didn't they say it was specifically aimed at us, the fans of the older games? Is it really too much misinterpreting to think that what they would deliver would be exactly along those guidelines?

Nope. They said "Sonic returns in a new 2D Adventure". They also said they wanted this game to be "in the spirit of the classics" through their concept art and vague statements. But this game wasn't targeted JUST at the classic fans; as I said, it was meant to be the 3D spin on classic ideas, enticing fans new and old.

But maybe Sonic 4 IS a bad title.... I mean, New Super Mario Bros never had this problem 'cause the NEW part was already in the title. SEGA could have named it "Sonic Evolved" and maybe then we would have been satisfied. But it's marketing, as well as the sheer impact, that led to this being christened Sonic 4.

Edited by EXshad, 06 February 2010 - 03:29 PM.

[Slingerland]

You don't know that it doesn't.

Considering that it is currently built around rehashing old stuff we've seen already (read the game's story and the badniks thus far), the game isn't treading new ground (from what we know). To me, a sequel is supposed to expand upon the previous game and make the experience new and better.

And like Prof J said, you don't see modern Sonic for sale at Hot Topic. You see classic Sonic. Retro mechandise is in. Capitalize on it.

You might not want to subscribe to my way of viewing three seconds of footage, Svend, but there are some of us who feel this way. When you have 16 years in between games, you start analyzing everything to get your fix and making a fangame out of it. At that point, you know too much for your own good. That's me.

You also don't hype classic Sonic for five months and then show modern Sonic, along with calling the game "Sonic 4." That's just plain weird.

[Professor J]

You don't know that it doesn't.

Of course. But judging by what we've had since 1994 I'm incredibly doubtful.

[American Ristar]

Heh, depressing article. I half agree. But I can't follow you the whole way. You might say people are naive for thinking this is the return of classic style, despite the evidence against. I'd say anyone who thought a true Genesis style sequel to the original trilogy was possible was smoking something. I think it's close to impossible to recreate what made the series so great back then. Like I said in the main topic before the lock, the game will take modern influence just by being made in 2010. At this point we need to make concessions. I was ready to see a modern Sonic model, or whatever, and I'm not too let down. The rest looks alright.

Here's where I'm totally with you though. Sonic 4 is a name that implies a direct sequel. Since I think this game can never be that, it's a stupid assuming name to put on your product. I understand it, they want the word out, Sonic the Hedgehog is back. But after their werewolf surprises and all that, you don't want people thinking you're selling something you're really not. So I think it's important to realize that this isn't a classic game. There's no such thing anymore. But we can think of it as a modern tribute to that and have fun with what they give us. Hell, I might be surprised to find out this game is truer to 16-bit than I thought.

Further. Slinger, you mention rehashes of Badniks and environments. You bring up Angel Island - the zone was set on fire. From our teaser, we don't know what any of the rest of it looks like. We've got three Badniks and some palm trees. The name Splash Hill was leaked. A water-green zone. That's already more than one level theme. Who's to say the zone won't be "set on fire", or whatever gimmick they've got planned. I admit if they have no gimmicks they've fallen short. But I don't mind being on a hype train. And who knows about the Badniks, but I'm certain we'll be seeing new Robotnik bosses at the end of each zone.

Sonic has been a cash cow ever since it went into 3D but being given the term doesn't negate it's status as being made for a certain demographic.

I don't understand. Sonic has been a cash cow since he was packaged with the Genesis. What do you guys think Spinball, Mean Bean Machine and other spin-offs were about? And then the main games pulled in major cash for Sega. Anyways, I'd rather think of this as a tribute game than an attempt to be exactly classic. There's things they'll get right and things they'll get wrong. It's probably the right thing to do though. Maybe they'll do another after this succeeds. Did Sonic 1 get everything right the first time? They built on that style for several years. If we want that level of awesome we're gonna have to see what happens.

[pooshoes]

Honestly, considering how hugely popular retro Sonic merchandise is I am completely baffled by why they chose to use modern Sonic.

Because that's what Sonic looks like to the majority of the people who play Sonic Games these days?
What would SEGA gain from using the old style? The praise of a few diehard fans?


I doubt that would be enough to justify its use.