73 replies to this topic

[Metal Gear (sting)RAY]

I can't see how anyone would have gotten the impression that that's the only reason we don't like the game. I know of maybe one person to whom that actually applies. That's stereotyping, albeit a comparatively benign form of it.

In fact, outside of responses to something Iizuka said, The only people who I've seen bring it have been people (incorrectly) accusing people of complaining about the green eyes.

I've seen a lot more than one person complain about the green eyes, but I'm sure some of them were trolls.

I have nothing against classic fans. Just the folks who dismiss any sign of change without a second thought. This can apply to many modern fans as well.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

I can't see how anyone would have gotten the impression that that's the only reason we don't like the game. I know of maybe one person to whom that actually applies. That's stereotyping, albeit a comparatively benign form of it.

Because it was the one of the most trivial features that Classic fans complained about the most before we got anymore information on this game. Classic fans bitched so much about that one aspect (among others), and as a result it ended up sticking with them because of how pointless an issue it was made out to be from the very start.

Stereotyping it may be, it's not exactly helping ease the stereotype when people still continue to blow it out of proportion to this day. It works the same way for Modern fans, except it's only because of how open they are to more extraneous features for the series.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 13 March 2010 - 06:45 AM.

[MrROBOTO1988]

Stereotypes exist for a reason , and that reason is that people notice a trend. Do stereotypes apply to every member of the stereotyped group? Not by any means.

With that said, I would very much consider myself a classic fan. I literally grew up on Sonic games for the Genesis and the Game Gear. I had Sonic themed birthday parties as a kid, I watched SatAM and AoStH, and I subscribed to the Archie comic book for over 10 years. Yet even though I am a classic fan, I am not complaining about Sonic's appearance at all. Therefore, I do not even fit the stereotype that I applied.

Yet too many very vocal fans of the classic games use his appearance as a large reason to not like Sonic 4. If you've only seen this complaint from 1 person, then you are are simply not looking at fan reactions to the game. I've been reading sonicstadium news posts for a while now, which is why I joined the forums, and A LOT of comments on those very news stories are beckoning for a classic look model, or complaining about his modern appearance saying the game isn't worthy of the name Sonic 4. After more footage and news was leaked and revealed, complaints started to emerge about the potential gameplay issues, but for the first couple of weeks, the complaints were almost purely aesthetic.

So Phos, let me ask you. Are you a classic fan? And if you are, are you bothered by Sonic's appearance enough to not like the game? If not, then my stereotype does not apply to you either.

[Phos]

Because it was the one of the most trivial features that Classic fans complained about the most before we got anymore information on this game. Classic fans bitched so much about that one aspect (among others), and as a result it ended up sticking with them because of how pointless an issue it was made out to be from the very start.

Stereotyping it may be, it's not exactly helping ease the stereotype when people still continue to blow it out of proportion to this day. It works the same way for Modern fans, except it's only because of how open they are to more extraneous features for the series.

You realize it goes beyond his eyes, right? I'll elaborate more on this further down. This issue was also drawn out by responses to people acting condescending about the whole thing.

Yet too many very vocal fans of the classic games use his appearance as a large reason to not like Sonic 4. If you've only seen this complaint from 1 person, then you are are simply not looking at fan reactions to the game. I've been reading sonicstadium news posts for a while now, which is why I joined the forums, and A LOT of comments on those very news stories are beckoning for a classic look model, or complaining about his modern appearance saying the game isn't worthy of the name Sonic 4. After more footage and news was leaked and revealed, complaints started to emerge about the potential gameplay issues, but for the first couple of weeks, the complaints were almost purely aesthetic.

The complaints were not purely aesthetic, they just weren't taken seriously because some people here thought that the footage didn't contain enough information to actually justify them. But guess what, they were right on the money.

So Phos, let me ask you. Are you a classic fan? And if you are, are you bothered by Sonic's appearance enough to not like the game? If not, then my stereotype does not apply to you either.

An interesting question, one that reminds me of a particular circumstance. Before Devil May Cry 1 came out, I was eagerly anticipating it, and I was not dissapointed. But then Devil May Cry 2 turns out to be one of the worst games ever. Devil May Cry 3 was hailed as being a return to form by the press, but there was one problem: Dante was dressed like a male stripper. I ended up never getting the game, but it turned out to be a none issue really. I hated how Dante played in DMC 4, and that appears to basically be the same as how he played in DMC 3.

But what does this have to do with Sonic? The incarnation of the design they are using for this game just doesn't look good in a lot of cases. It's legs kink like hoses at the knees and hips when they bend, and I don't think I need to revisit what I think of his face. In certain poses from certain angles, it just seems to "fall apart". But would it keep me from buying it? Not if these were actually my biggest problems with the game. Sometimes I tell myself that the new design isn't so bad. I can actually kind of get behind it. But then the slightest glimpse of classic Sonic, and I'm back to square 1... Like right now, with this thing:


With this game, it seems as though they're just telling people that it's going to play like the classics and hope that they believe it. That seems to be a trend in these supposed returns to form in the last few years, aside from Megaman 9, they tend to not be all that different from the lackluster game they are supposedly reacting to. DMC 4 was an enjoyable game thanks to Nero and his very DMC 1-esque move set. But then you have games like Wipeout Pure, which had essentially the same physics as Wipeout Fusion (not good), but was supposedly a return to form because they removed pit row and made the ships less ugly and the teams less corrupt. It only helped them so much, though, because the team that made these newer Wipeout games has been layed off recently.

Edited by Phos, 15 March 2010 - 09:03 AM.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

You realize it goes beyond his eyes, right? I'll elaborate more on this further down. This issue was also drawn out by responses to people acting condescending about the whole thing.

Be it the eyes, the ears, the torso, the spines, etc. My point still stands.

The complaints were not purely aesthetic, they just weren't taken seriously because some people here thought that the footage didn't contain enough information to actually justify them. But guess what, they were right on the money.

And what were they right about? Because I bet it can very well be something that is debatable.

I hated how Dante played in DMC 4, and that appears to basically be the same as how he played in DMC 3.

Probably because the enemies and levels were designed more with Nero in mind than Dante is probably why he doesn't have the same charm he did in DMC 3, but that's besides the point...

But what does this have to do with Sonic? The incarnation of the design they are using for this game just doesn't look good in a lot of cases. It's legs kink like hoses at the knees and hips when they bend, and I don't think I need to revisit what I think of his face.

His legs kink like hoses at the knees?

They're no different from any of the classic incarnations they've used in the past. They're skinny sticks wether it be from his classic or modern looks. Honestly, that claim makes it sound like you're grasping for straws just to criticize it, and I honestly don't think that's a good point to justify your opinion of this incarnation when the one you prefer has that very same aspect.

In certain poses from certain angles, it just seems to "fall apart". But would it keep me from buying it? Not if these were actually my biggest problems with the game. Sometimes I tell myself that the new design isn't so bad. I can actually kind of get behind it. But then the slightest glimpse of classic Sonic, and I'm back to square 1...

You prefer Classic Sonic. That much we get and understand. It has an appeal to it that draws you to it more than the modern one.

However, I do have to say that when you appear to overanalyze things like this to justify why the Modern one is inferior like you're doing now, I can't say it's going to sit well with others who can argue it the other way.

With this game, it seems as though they're just telling people that it's going to play like the classics and hope that they believe it. That seems to be a trend in these supposed returns to form in the last few years, aside from Megaman 9, they tend to not be all that different from the lackluster game they are supposedly reacting to.

Compared to their last promises of this being like the classics, this is showing a lot better promise than it did before.

[MrROBOTO1988]

You realize it goes beyond his eyes, right? I'll elaborate more on this further down. This issue was also drawn out by responses to people acting condescending about the whole thing.

Ok, so you elaborated a bit. It goes beyond his eyes to..... his legs? that's it? his legs went from skinny and short in classic sonic to skinny and slightly longer in modern sonic. Big change there, well worth the complaints now.

The complaints were not purely aesthetic, they just weren't taken seriously because some people here thought that the footage didn't contain enough information to actually justify them. But guess what, they were right on the money.

First off, after the announcement trailer, the complaints were very largely aesthetic only. The complaints included:
green eyes
modern look
running animation
jumping animation
dust behind sonic

Yes, other complaints existed about the gameplay, but you're right, they weren't taken seriously because the footage was so short. So, to my next point:

Who was right on the money about what? Do you think the game will be Sonic Rush 3? Do you think Dimps will screw it up? Will it be too much about speed and not level design? Is it just rehashing everything from the old games?

NONE of those questions are answered yet, and they won't be answered for quite some time, maybe not even until the game is out. So no, they weren't right on the money, the debates about how the game will play are still as heated as ever.

And finally:

Devil May Cry 3 was hailed as being a return to form by the press, but there was one problem: Dante was dressed like a male stripper. I ended up never getting the game, but it turned out to be a none issue really. I hated how Dante played in DMC 4, and that appears to basically be the same as how he played in DMC 3.

Tell me this: Was it Dante's apperance that made the game unenjoyable to you? Because you use that as an example of what turned you off from the game, but then you say that you hated how he PLAYED. So which one really matters? You even said his image turned out to be a non issue.

THAT is what I'm trying to say. Sonic's image may not be what many classic fans truly want, but that will not change the game itself. His eye color, his legs, his running animation, none of that affects the core of what made Sonic games fun: gameplay.

[Phos]

Who was right on the money about what? Do you think the game will be Sonic Rush 3? Do you think Dimps will screw it up? Will it be too much about speed and not level design? Is it just rehashing everything from the old games?

It has crappy physics, appears to have bad enemy placement, features a number of elements from newer games (HA, those convex embankments), and we have a testimonial from a person who played it who says it's level design was similar to that of Advance 2. What more do you need?

Be it the eyes, the ears, the torso, the spines, etc. My point still stands.

It's not like I only care about one part of it at a time or something similar.

His legs kink like hoses at the knees?

Yes, they kink like hoses when they bend. They widen along one axis and flatten along another. If you want a better description, grab a garden hose and fold it on itself, that's what New sonic's knees look like when they bend.

Honestly, that claim makes it sound like you're grasping for straws just to criticize it

Do you think not liking New sonic was a choice I made? I'm not the type to dislike something just because it's been changed, in fact, I'm usually the opposite.

Edited by Phos, 16 March 2010 - 08:15 AM.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

It's not like I only care about one part of it at a time or something similar.

That's not what I'm saying. It doesn't matter what part of it you care about, going to such extreme detail in an effort to prove the new design as inferior is something that is incredibly trivial to do. That's not to say you can't prefer the older design, and I mean no offense when I say this, but you come off as annoyingly pedantic with all this detail just to say that you like the older design more.

Yes, they kink like hoses when they bend. They widen along one axis and flatten along another. If you want a better description, grab a garden hose and fold it on itself, that's what New sonic's knees look like when they bend.

Barely. I just got done looking at a few scenes from SA2, Heroes, 06, and Unleashed's models to see what you meant. What I saw each time is that when the legs bend while in motion they only curve rather than buckle at an angle like hoses. They bend just like they do in the classic sprites.

And even if that was the case, what exactly would be the problem with the legs bending like hoses in the first place? That sounds like an incredibly minor detail to pick at.

Do you think not liking New sonic was a choice I made? I'm not the type to dislike something just because it's been changed, in fact, I'm usually the opposite.

No, I think it was a preference that you have against it; that there's a charm that is lacking within the newer design that you favor in the older design.

However, in this preference of the older design, you seem to pick at more unimportant details that you can basically find in the older design as well or some of which you seem to be making up just to justify your preference of the older design.

The eyes, I can sort of understand despite how senseless the arguing over them has become. The torso too, because they do stand out very much when it appears to make him taller than he should be in games like Sonic 06 even though he never goes past the 3 ft height standard he was made with (I mean come on, he was still shorter than Elise and as tall as the kids were in the hub world).

The bending legs, however, not so much. That's one of the things that goes beyond nitpicking when you call that out.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 17 March 2010 - 08:27 AM.

[MrROBOTO1988]

It has crappy physics, appears to have bad enemy placement, features a number of elements from newer games (HA, those convex embankments), and we have a testimonial from a person who played it who says it's level design was similar to that of Advance 2. What more do you need?

How does it have crappy physics? It looks to be very momentum based if you ask me, which is just like the old games.

Bad enemy placement? based on what exactly?

Elements from newer games...I would imagine you are referring to the homing attack, but I hardly think that is reason to doubt the game entirely, considering we havent really seen anything about it in action. What else is really from newer games? Elaborate on your convex embankments if you'd like, I don't really know what you mean and how they are an element from newer games.

As far as the testimonial goes, I believe things like that must be taken with a grain of salt. I am one of the few sonic fans who enjoyed Advance 2 (even though critics liked it a lot folks), but I do understand it isn't the classic Sonic formula, which I would prefer in a sequel. However, I have no idea who the person is, and I remember specifically his claims that Splash Hill Zone looked exactly like Advance 2's Leaf Forest zone....which I very much disagree with, and would point out that every Sonic game's first zone has similarity.

What more do I need before I am on your side that the game will not be what it's advertised as? Maybe a reputable source telling me it plays like Advance 2, not some random tester who I have no idea about. Phos, just curious, do you intend to buy the game?

[Phos]

Convex embankments are those convex curved things that are essentially fourth of a circle. They technically change direction, but because of how Sonic works and how this game's physics largely ignore gravity, they might as well be straight lines.

Enemies seem placed as traps, such as that motobug in the leaked footage.

And no, I'm not buying this game.

Edited by Phos, 18 March 2010 - 01:26 AM.

[Agent York]

Convex embankments are those convex curved things that are essentially fourth of a circle. They technically change direction, but because of how Sonic works and how this game's physics largely ignore gravity, they might as well be straight lines.

Enemies seem placed as traps, such as that motobug in the leaked footage.

And no, I'm not buying this game.

...Motobugs have always been like that, ever since Sonic 1. I have no idea what your talking about. O_O

[Gamerguy21]

And no, I'm not buying this game.

So, are you even gonna give this game a chance? Like by downloading the free demo?

[Rusty Spy]

It has crappy physics

So you've actually played the game then?

appears to have bad enemy placement

Bad enemy placement? You mean that ONE Motobug? Please, it's been like that since the very first Motobug in Sonic 1.

features a number of elements from newer games (HA, those convex embankments)

Features elements from newer games? Oh noes, they actually try to add to gameplay. It's totally not the same as New Super Mario Bros.

and we have a testimonial from a person who played it who says it's level design was similar to that of Advance 2

So we are instantly going to believe the statements of one single persons opinion on an ALPHA build of the game? Not saying he's wrong, but it's a bad habit of people to jump onto any negative information and immediately accept it as fact.

What more do you need?

To actually be able to PLAY THE GAME before I start making claims about how the game plays, perhaps? Or how bout solid evidence to these claims for starters.

EDIT: Wait, did a topic about a satirical article about extreme fanboy complaints turn into ANOTHER serious debate about how the game plays? Seriously, do people ALWAYS have to get up in arms about someone cracking a few jokes on fans and turn funny comedy into a serious discussion?

Edited by Black Spy, 18 March 2010 - 02:50 AM.

[Agent York]

Directly related so posting it here.

[-Mark-]

Come on, everyone knows that Sonic 4 will suck because of green eyes and Rush physics, nothing else. Especially the green eyes. 8D

*shot*

[Agent York]

I threw on a southern nerdy voice and decided to make my own parody of Sonic 4 and gaming audiences all together. XD;



(jump to 5:14 if you just want Sonic 4)

Kinda' frighting how I didn't make any of this up. LAst link I'm posting though.

[Barry the Nomad]

The above signposts image led me to make the sig image seen below. Of course, I didn't defile the Sonic 4 post and left it as it will be in the final game.

[Phos]

So, are you even gonna give this game a chance? Like by downloading the free demo?

I might, but the thought of the version of New sonic they used in this game filling my screen on the title screen isn't exactly thrilling... or maybe it is. The Sonic 4 title screen creeps me out.

So you've actually played the game then?

It's pretty easy to tell that gravity doesn't affect Sonic when he's on the ground.

Features elements from newer games? Oh noes, they actually try to add to gameplay. It's totally not the same as New Super Mario Bros.

What, the wall jump?

[Rusty Spy]

The Sonic 4 title screen creeps me out.

That's........ weird, to say the least......

It's pretty easy to tell that gravity doesn't affect Sonic when he's on the ground.

Again, you say that as if you've physically played the game. 06 looked good before people actually played it.

What, the wall jump?

Butstomp, triple jump, I believe the backflip, pretty much every move he's learned since Mario World is jammed into NSMBW.

Edited by Black Spy, 19 March 2010 - 01:44 AM.

[Phos]

Is it really so weird? He almost looks angry on the title screen. It's extremely off putting.

I don't know about you, but I thought 06 looked like crap when I first saw it, and that was without seeing people standing on walls.

New SMB Wii added things that don't replace what made the game good in the first place.