Sonic 4 Worries are Present in the Classics

[MrROBOTO1988]

Please read this before watching the video:

I have read a lot of complaints/worries about the upcoming Sonic 4 related to the gameplay. A lot of these complaints or worries seem to be because Dimps is working on the game, and people did not necessarily like the level design Dimps incorporated in their previous 2D Sonic games (i.e. Sonic Advance 2, 3, Rush, Rush Adventure). These complaints seem to focus around three large areas (it's not only these areas, but these are what I'm addressing). These areas are:

"Bad" enemy placement

- It seems a lot of people think modern 2D sonic games have bad enemy placement. It would also seem their definition of bad enemy placement is something along the lines of surprise enemies. Sonic is running/jumpin/soarin through the air from a spring, and BAM hits an enemy that appeared so quickly that it would have been almost impossible to avoid, UNLESS YOU HAD PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF IT BEING THERE. However, this is not new to Sonic games, and the video should show you that. However, we've all played the classics so many times we are used to the levels and the enemy layouts so that it probably doesnt seem very surprising when these enemies pop up. But PLEASE try to think about when you were a kid 16 years ago playing these games for the first time. It's not "bad" enemy placement. It's just a surprise trap meant to make you play differently your second time through, leading to replayability and experimentation.

Bottomless Pits

- I am aware that Sonic Rush and the later Advance games have plenty of bottomless pits. However, we have seenno evidence of this same plague in Sonic 4. In the video are some examples of bottomless pits in the classics. Dimps did not invent them, they just overused them. However, Sonic 4 does NOT seem to overuse them at all.

Automation/Minimal-User-Activity/Too many speed items/hold-right-to-win/whatever you want to call it

- This has been something relatively recent in Sonic's life that people starting voicing concern about. It seems people don't want Sonic going TOO fast. And I agree completely. Also, people don't seem to like that springs/speed boosters and the like reduce user input, and sections become very automated. However, this is not at ALL new to the series. Sonic has always been about speed and platforming, but he is known for what? Being fast! I am not proposing that it is OK to automate an entire game/level. But it is NOT A BAD THING if used in conjunction with good platforming. About half of the video shows examples of honest to goodness automation in the classics that have Sonic going fast. And honestly, I bet a lot of these levels are some of your favorites.

The overall point of this video is to show that in my opinion, these worries about Sonic 4 should not be worried about so much. Sonic games have always had these aspects. I don't think any of these should be overdone, but I have seen no such evidence that ANY of these are being overdone in Sonic 4. Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZujz-yhG18

[EXshad]

The gross overusage of speed pads was never present in the classics. Besides that though, I'm really not worried about the game when it comes to gameplay. And I've never had many of these problems with the classics either.

But another serious gripe is the gross reusage of classic enemies/bosses. Hell, even the

LAST BOSS is a rehash of the Sonic 2 final boss

.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Blue Blood]

And the biggest problem that people have is with the physics. Sonic accelerates far to quickly, doesn't need much force to scale walls and he enters his 'falling' action when coming off of a ramp (instead of running mid-air/staying in a ball). Answer those worries.

On the subject of bad enemy placement, Sonic is much faster in S4 than in S1/2/3/K. That makes a whole lot of difference.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Diogenes]

But another serious gripe is the gross reusage of classic enemies/bosses.

They are doing it for a reason, y'know. It's not just "oh let's be lazy and just use the old robots"; they're setting up a theme, they're celebrating the classics by bringing back elements from them in a way the average game wouldn't.

Seriously, in any other series, this would be cause for celebration.

[Badnik Zero]

Nice video. I'm with you on the first two points, but I think the last one is a little weak. In modern Sonic games there are sections that totally take control away from the player - Heroes has a lot of these for example. Taking control from the player is always bad IMO. That's a movie not a game. All the automated sections you showed from the classics still leave the player with control. Maybe it's arbitrary. But there are things you can find in the Hydrocity speed sections for sure. The new way makes it so you never need to think about other parts of the level - you're just catapulted forward. There were also less areas that made it impossible to backtrack. Boosters in new games are placed so frequently that the level is denying you from moving in any direction but right, if you want to turn around.

[EXshad]

They are doing it for a reason, y'know. It's not just "oh let's be lazy and just use the old robots"; they're setting up a theme, they're celebrating the classics by bringing back elements from them in a way the average game wouldn't.

Seriously, in any other series, this would be cause for celebration.

Old enemies? Fine, I'll deal with it. Reusing the bosses, including the

LAST ONE

?! Bullshit, that's lazy and you know it. This is a sequel, not "Sonic's Best-Of".

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Rusty Spy]

Some of the complaints in that video are inaccurate or flat out blatantly done on purpose(most of the bottomless pits).

While I do agree there was SOME bad enemy placement in the classic games, I don't think your setting a good example by including a lot of purposely exploited enemies and pits to prove the point.

Some examples that AREN'T real bad enemy placement:

-The first one shown of Metropolis's Crab enemy: It was easy to see if you took a glance ahead of you.

-The crab enemy thing in Hydrocity: your most likely to have been going slow enough to see it, and the enemy itself is NOT hard to avoid hitting.

-The spike ball in Flying Battery: debatable, as it's position looks to be intentional to exploit spin dash spam.

Some examples that AREN'T unfair bottomless pits:

-Wing Fortress: That's the point. There's SUPPOSED to be a bottomless pit there, otherwise wheres the challenge?

-Second Emerald Hill example: seriously? Obviously done on purpose.

-Second Wing Fortress example: Obviously done on purpose.

-Flying Battery: Obviously intentional.

The speed sections you seem to be mistaken on. While yes, the classic DID have them and were prone to using them in a lot of levels, the issue isn't that they're there, but that they're ABUSED in recent games.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Black Spy

[MrROBOTO1988]

Old enemies? Fine, I'll deal with it. Reusing the bosses, including the

LAST ONE

?! Bullshit, that's lazy and you know it. This is a sequel, not "Sonic's Best-Of".

I can see that it could be considered lazy, sure. But the official "story" of Sonic 4 is that eggman is recreating the best of his inventions to try and improve them to beat sonic, or something along those lines. And that boss you mentioned, is that not perhaps one of the best bosses in all of Sonic games?

[Barry the Nomad]

Mario reuses the same two enemies and nobody bats an eye. Sonic reuses (and in many cases reinvents) a whole legion of enemies after 15+ years of disuse and the everybody gets angry.

Good topic and great video MrROBOTO1988!

[SuperStingray]

Even if they existed back then, it doesn't justify the issues Sonic 4 does have. True, some complaints ARE nitpicky, but if Sonic 4 can't hold its own regardless of the quality of its predecessors, none of that should matter.

[Rusty Spy]

Sonic 4's story is an Excuse Plot to rehash enemies. Not a BAD thing if there were actually NEW enemies along with them, but most of the enemies in 4 are practically copy-pasta'd from the classics. At least they did SOMETHING to differentiate them from their Genesis counterparts though.

Mario reuses the same two enemies and nobody bats an eye. Sonic reuses (and in many cases reinvents) a whole legion of enemies after 15+ years of disuse and the everybody gets angry.

Considering the enemies in Mario games weren't all that different from each other, it's not like they were missing anything. Every Sonic game has had mostly completely unique enemies exclusive to that game, so seeing the exact opposite in a supposed "continuation of S3&K" is quite jarring, despite the aforementioned excuse plot.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Black Spy

[EXshad]

I can see that it could be considered lazy, sure. But the official "story" of Sonic 4 is that eggman is recreating the best of his inventions to try and improve them to beat sonic, or something along those lines. And that boss you mentioned, is that not perhaps one of the best bosses in all of Sonic games?

I suppose. But that's a lazy plot. Like I said: this is a SEQUEL. Not a collection of Sonic 1-3's best moments. One of the best things about the old games was seeing Eggman's crazy new invention at the end of each level, in my opinion. They dashed that simple yet effective factor in the fucking SEQUEL.

We, as fans, were lied to. This was supposed to be a totally new adventure as a spokesperson himself ensured, but rehashed enemies, bosses, and level themes does nothing new. I hope Sega fixes this problem in future installments.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[MrROBOTO1988]

Black Spy, I wasn't trying to say that these bottomless pits are terrible problems with the games, I was just pointing out they were there. Yes, I DID make sonic die in them, but I was merely just showing they are there.

For the enemy placement that you said was not relevant, I have actually had issues with those exact spots when I pick up the game after a long time of not playing it. Perhaps you have better reflexes or are simply a more skilled sonic gamer than I, but to me they are the same issue if I am rusty with the game.

And finally, as I stated initially, any of these would be serious problems if used too much. This thread is about Sonic 4, NOT 3D sonic games like Sonic Heroes. I'm not trying to defend those games. I am trying to say that in Sonic 4, with what we have seen so far, these issues are not there yet when compared to the classics.

[SuperStingray]

I'm going to wager a guess that part of the reason behind the episodic structure is to start off in a total nostalgia rush then work to something more new in each episode.

[EXshad]

I'm going to wager a guess that part of the reason behind the episodic structure is to start off in a total nostalgia rush then work to something more new in each episode.

I hope so. That might be okay, but all I was hoping for was, at least, a new

final boss

. I don't wanna pay $10 to do what I've done countless times already.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Diogenes]

Old enemies? Fine, I'll deal with it. Reusing the bosses, including the

LAST ONE

?! Bullshit, that's lazy and you know it.

Or, y'know, it's literally exactly the same thing. That you pop a boner at the thought of seeing a new Eggpod attachment doesn't change that.

I suppose. But that's a lazy plot. Like I said: this is a SEQUEL. Not a collection of Sonic 1-3's best moments.

Actually it's kind of both.

You'd be able to see this if you weren't so busy being overdramatic about this. We were "lied to"? What a load of shit.

Edit:

I'm going to wager a guess that part of the reason behind the episodic structure is to start off in a total nostalgia rush then work to something more new in each episode.

This is probably true. Edited April 8, 2010 by Diogenes

[EXshad]

Or, y'know, it's literally exactly the same thing. That you pop a boner at the thought of seeing a new Eggpod attachment doesn't change that.

Actually it's kind of both.

You'd be able to see this if you weren't so busy being overdramatic about this. We were "lied to"? What a load of shit.

((From SEGA)) Project Needlemouse is not an HD version of Sonic 1. These may be old badniks, but when we said all-new adventure, we meant it.

You're right about the badniks. I admit it. But come on man, you're telling me that couldn't just make ONE new boss, as the

final boss?

That's really all I was hoping for.

But yeah, they kinda lied when you're replaying the same thing you did... I dunno, 15 years ago or so? They said ALL NEW adventure, and almost everything I've seen is lifted right from old-titles. Which wouldn't be bad if this wasn't a sequel. And it does kinda piss me off considering I was such an adamant defender of the game.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Diogenes]

Was Sonic 2 not a new adventure because it reused springs and monitors, and the first level is obviously just a Green Hill knockoff?

The levels are new. The story (what little there is) is new. It is a new adventure.

And as far as

FINAL BOSS FINAL BOSS FINAL BOSS FINAL BOSS

, remember: This is only the first episode.

[EXshad]

No, those are common series motifs. Like Mario's mushrooms and coins. Lifting the entire boss list from old games is another story.

But I really wouldn't have minded if we just got ONE new boss. Which we didn't. Hell, even the ending is ripped from Sonic 2!

But I digress, I should wait and see if we get something new in the coming titles. That's been the common excuse from day one, and even I used it a fair share of times. I just think it's lazy. that's my opinion, and I'm pretty sure I can back it up. Sonic 4 Episode 1 seems completely devoid of the creativity that made the original trilogy such classics.

And to me that's a crying shame.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Gatestormer]

On the subject of re-using badniks and bosses, I think an important point to remember is that this is simply the PROLOUGE to Sonic 4. The game hasn't even begun yet, Episode 1 is simply a small ripple in the river of Sonic 4. I don't believe that SEGA are stupid enough to only re-use bosses and badniks for the entire game, but re-using them for the Prologue makes sense to me. It brings back memories of the original games, it might be different for us as we may still play them regularly but for people who haven't touched Sonic in 15 years, it's a great way to get them thinking 'Hey I remember this!' and get them geared up, in the right mood and Classic Sonic mindset for Episode 2 and 3(?) when the game really begins.

[Ferno]

I'm sure the game's gonna be fun whether it's completely rehashed or not, at least it's not being rushed.

Don't you guys ever get tired of being negative all the time?

Edited April 8, 2010 by Ferno

[Barry the Nomad]

If I remember correctly, the Nintendo Power interview mentioned that Episode 1 was a throwback compilation while episodes 2 and 3 will be far more original. I could have the wrong interview, but I'm certain I heard it said.

Also

the inclusion of Metal Sonic in episode 2 is something that has not happened in ANY numbered Sonic game. Unless they do a callback to Chaotix or CD, we could very well see a proper Metal boss battle. No racing, no Rita Repulsa "Make my monster grow!". Rather, something new!

Edited April 8, 2010 by Doctor Eggman

[EXshad]

On the subject of re-using badniks and bosses, I think an important point to remember is that this is simply the PROLOUGE to Sonic 4. The game hasn't even begun yet, Episode 1 is simply a small ripple in the river of Sonic 4. I don't believe that SEGA are stupid enough to only re-use bosses and badniks for the entire game, but re-using them for the Prologue makes sense to me. It brings back memories of the original games, it might be different for us as we may still play them regularly but for people who haven't touched Sonic in 15 years, it's a great way to get them thinking 'Hey I remember this!' and get them geared up, in the right mood and Classic Sonic mindset for Episode 2 and 3(?) when the game really begins.

I kinda agree with you, but this IS when the game really begins. It's Episode 1, not Episode 0. But I will totally back-pedal if you're right about episodes 2 and 3, I just was expecting a bit more out of the sequel one of the best trilogies in gaming, that's all.

I'll just keep my mouth shut and see how it plays out, considering I de-railed the topic with the mention of rehashes and shit. I said all I needed to on the matter.

I still bet the game will be fun, I just wish it was a bit creative....

Don't you guys ever get tired of being negative all the time?

Remember when I was the hardcore defender of this game? lol, i wasn't always negative, I've tried looking at the game from an objective view from day one. In fact, I think I remember saying something like "I'm fine with reusing old badniks, as long as they mix new badniks and bosses into the mix" a while back. This is just a legitimate complaint that I have with the game that originated once I saw all the levels and all the boss fights, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited April 8, 2010 by EXshad

[Badnik Zero]

This thread is about Sonic 4, NOT 3D sonic games like Sonic Heroes. I'm not trying to defend those games. I am trying to say that in Sonic 4, with what we have seen so far, these issues are not there yet when compared to the classics.

Fine, not Sonic Heroes. That was an extreme example. What are some other games with near-automated gameplay. How about Adv 2, another 2D game, where levels were oriented down giant hills. When not kept in check these sections can dominate a game. Adv 2 is known for its high speeds, while not every level played like Chemical Plant in the originals. I can't say for sure if Sonic 4 will be like that - but the booster spam in modern games is not like the speed areas from the classics. They're not contained at all. Notice Sonic comes to a halt at the end of most of your examples. Modern Sonic keeps on running until the end of the level.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Pinche Pitochu

[Tyranno]

Yannow, I look back at Mega Man, and... no one bats an eye about how much the Wily Saucer has been reused.

Only Mega Man 10 gave it any real variation also.

Why is the Sonic 2 boss a big deal?