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What makes people prefer Mech-Shooting and Treasure Hunting over the Werehog?


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#1 ChikaBoing

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:35 PM

Time and time again, I see people saying Unleashed was hold back by the Werehog and are in the same opinion that Sonic Adventure 2 was the last good Sonic game before Colours. Both games had the same flaw in that you spend half of the time(in the case of Sa2 2 thirds) of alternate gameplay. This must be obvious to them. However what makes people tolerate the Mech-Shooting and Treasure Hunting more than the Werehog Levels? Or at least not think that the Night-Levels are on par with them?

Shooting and Hunting in SA2 have very paper-thin gameplay,even for 2001/2002 standards. The Werehog is much more substantial in comparision.

The Mech Shooting has very repetetive Level Design and gameplay in that you always are in very generic corridors or do clunky generic plattforming with not much varation in terrain. The Levels aren't particulary memorable, and you always feel that you already played this area before.
Treasure Hunting was tedious and long winded before you knew where roughly knew where the shards are hidden, since you had to fly over the stage 3 times, the radar wasn't helfpful etc. the Levels themselfs, werent very intuitive and inventive, and unexciting.

Now the Werehog is superior. The Level design is much superior to the Mech and Shotting Levels. The Terrain and Layout of the levels kept changing and you never feel like too much that you played segments already before, it doesnt feel as lazy. There were stage gimmicks(Icicles in Holoska, Block Puzzles in Mazuri etc.). The Combat doesnt really have depth, but the fact there are good amount of moves that you can do, proves that it has something to it.

Now I'm not saying the Werehog was omg awsome and the Sa2 alternate gameplay are omg worst things ever. Both are mediocore in the standards of general gaming. But the Werehog holds up better to the general standards of games than Mech-Shooting and Treasure Hunting.

However if you disagree, what makes you think the Tails/Eggman Levels and Knuckles/Rouge Levels are superior to the Werehog Levels, or at least not on par?

Edited by ChikaBoing, 31 December 2010 - 01:52 AM.


#2 RidersDX

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:52 PM

You know what, I actually had alot of fun with the treasure hunting levels. I love exploring a big gigantic level looking for the master emerald pieces. (And I guess, I just love playing as Knuckles too, I miss him having this big of a role in games.) I love exploring in 3D environments. Tails/Eggman levels were a little fun for me too at times. While it is the weakest point of the game for me, I still managed to have quite a bit of fun though. I was playing through SA2's story again yesterday and I did feel like those levels were fun, so this isn't an outdated opinion.

The werehog though, I got so freaking tired of it after a few stages. Because the stages are far more drawn out then the mech and treasure hunting levels ever were. And no, I feel Werehog had a 2/3 ratio of the game too, because not only did it had more stages (in wii version at least) they were far longer then the daytime ones too. Some of the levels take nearly 20 minutes mind you. And the combat just took so long, it felt endless when I had to go fight enemies and boring too. Werehog levels to me, are even more boring and tedious then the treasure hunting and mech shooting COMBINED.

Edited by RidersDX, 30 December 2010 - 01:58 PM.


#3 The-Master-Board

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:09 PM

Because the werehog was a shit concept. I'm the kind of person who prefers the story or setting of a game to feel right before I do the gameplay, and the werehog was just shit along with the rest of Sonic Unleashed. It was just such a stupid idea plus I guess if I were to critque it on gameplay issues it was so fricken damn long for some of the levels.

Personally I never had any complaintes over the treasure hunting and mech gameplay styles of SA2, I thought they were fun and implemented well. In fact I actually really liked flying/gliding around the levels looking for Master Emerald shards, those are some of my favourite levels in the game. I can't see why people hate the alternative gameplay styles in SA2 and I wouldn't drawn correlations between them and the stupid werehog stages in which I drew no fun at all.

#4 Emmett L. Brown

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:09 PM

I dunno. I guess the major difference for me was that by Sonic Adventure 2, the treasure hunting and and shooting had already been established in the excellent Sonic Adventure, so they weren't a huge unexpected genre change - though I didn't like that I couldn't play as Sonic from start to finish, they didn't detract that much since they were generally over pretty quick, and getting to play as Eggman was cool. But the Werehog was a gigantic unexpected genre change out of nowhere, completely derailed the enjoyable Sonic gameplay of Unleashed, and took foreeeeever to get through every single level. Yes, I know you can run as the Werehog, and I know you can dash through the levels once you get those neat running attacks, but that's forgetting the mandatory medal collection that Unleash forces upon you to unlock future levels. Since the majority of sun medals are at night, and you need 120 of the dang things to unlock the last main level, a playthrough of Sonic Unleashed forces you to sleuth through the night levels as thoroughly as possible, which means that they take a minimum of fifteen to twenty minutes to complete. Then it's five to ten minutes of Sonic joyful fun, then another twenty minute slog as the werehog.

I kept feeling that Sonic Unleshed threw up a big sign between levels that said "Complete this chore to unlock more fun". I never got that same feeling while playing Sonic Adventure 2.

#5 CanofEpicSauce

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:17 PM

Well the treasure hunting and Mech-shooting weren't all that bad in my opinion. Sure they could get boring, but it's not like they dragged on for more than 30 minutes like the Werehog stages did. I guess people hated the Werehog so much was because it was entirely useless in terms of flow and an overall crappy concept. Not to mention it was nothing but a God of War clone that dragged on for so long. People may argue and say that the Mech-shooting and treasure hunting stages broke the flow too, but even if they did, at least they were original in some way or another and at least each stage lasted roughly as long as the Sonic stages, and didn't drag on for a half an hour. Not to mention, the combat was sloppy and overall repetitive and just straight up boring.

#6 Azookara

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:39 PM

To everyone that hated the Werehog: all of your reasons sound like you either never played Unleashed, or they played the Wii/PS2 version. To everyone: THE WII AND PS2 VERSION IS TERRIBLE, AND THAT IS WHY THE WEREHOG SUCKED.

In Unleashed for the 360 and PS3, the Werehog played like GoW. Yes, it's bad that it's a ripoff, but still. It played very well and had a giant set of moves for you to use; and the controls were really comfortable (especially since it seemed to take the 360 controller in mind). It also only made up half the game instead of 3/4 the game like the Wii version. In fact, I'd have to say that I think there may be less Werehog levels in SU360 than there are Sonic levels.

To me, SA2's alternate gameplay was pretty pathetic. Treasure hunting was a nerfed version of SA1's treasure hunting with only one advantage, which was the digging being much easier to do. Besides that, the movement was jerkier, felt less Sonic-y, and you got lost in the levels because there was absolutely no sense of direction. That's not much worse than SA1's treasure hunting stages, until you take into consideration how they tried to make the stages lengthier by making the emeralds only searchable one at a time, and when they replaced Tikal's "this wayyyyy!" with incredibly vague clues which are hard to follow since over half the stage looks like the same layout spliced together in different patterns.

The mech shooting levels are an abomination. They play like if Gamma was to weigh 6000 lbs, and all the excitement was removed because they took out the (better) lockon system from SA1 and the arcade-y element of being timed and having to constantly up your time and score to survive.

I can honestly say that while the Werehog may have been a bad idea, it played incredibly well. While Tails and Knuckles are cool characters, their gameplay was atrocious in SA2. This means that the Werehog wins because gameplay always wins in a video game. The only way you could consider the Werehog worse on those terms IS to call up the Werehog from SUWii, which is just part of the growing trend that proves that Dimps really sucks at making Sonic games.

#7 RidersDX

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 02:55 PM

In Unleashed for the 360 and PS3, the Werehog played like GoW. Yes, it's bad that it's a ripoff, but still. It played very well and had a giant set of moves for you to use; and the controls were really comfortable (especially since it seemed to take the 360 controller in mind). It also only made up half the game instead of 3/4 the game like the Wii version. In fact, I'd have to say that I think there may be less Werehog levels in SU360 than there are Sonic levels.

I disagree and I have the 360 version too so I think I know what I'm talking about. The werehog stages in 360 are over 20 minutes long. Which means if the Wii and PS2 had the exact same stages as the werehog on the 360 and PS3, the Wii/PS2 versions basically divided the werehog levels into parts. The 360/PS3 version meanwhile, COMBINES all of them into one extremely boring and tedious level. So I think the way the Werehog was implemented in the 360/PS3 version was WORST. At least in the Wii/PS2, you could take breaks to go replay the fun daytime stages. But hey, the ratio was a little better in 360/PS3 at least, as there's still more Werehog on the Wii/PS2. That's ultimately why I prefer the 360 version over the Wii version.

It might LOOK like there is more daytime in Unleashed 360, but that's only true if you don't look at the actual length of the levels.

Edited by RidersDX, 30 December 2010 - 03:02 PM.


#8 FTA

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:03 PM

To everyone that hated the Werehog: all of your reasons sound like you either never played Unleashed, or they played the Wii/PS2 version. To everyone: THE WII AND PS2 VERSION IS TERRIBLE, AND THAT IS WHY THE WEREHOG SUCKED.

The only way you could consider the Werehog worse on those terms IS to call up the Werehog from SUWii, which is just part of the growing trend that proves that Dimps really sucks at making Sonic games.


Then how come Unleashed Wii got better reviews than the HD version?

And you should know, Sonic Team made the night stages in the Wii version, not Dimps.

#9 RidersDX

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:10 PM

Then how come Unleashed Wii got better reviews than the HD version?

I honestly don't get that myself. The 360/PS3 version is superior in so many other ways despite my criticism for the ways the werehog was implemented.

Edited by RidersDX, 30 December 2010 - 03:16 PM.


#10 PC the Hedgehog

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:12 PM

I've enjoyed pretty much every alternate gameplay style to an extent. They all had their good and bad points.

Treasure hunting gave you a great opportunity to explore levels. Plus, Knuckles played exactly how I would expect him to in a 3D plane. It was pretty decent in SA1 since you could find multiple emerald pieces at once, but it was less enjoyable in SA2 because you had to find one shard before the next one would appear on your radar, greatly raising the level of tedium. Still, it was a decent concept, I thought.

Shooting levels were okay. I mean, you were playing as an assassin robot and Eggman (and, uh, Tails, I guess), so what kind of gameplay would you expect them to have? You could move through levels at a fairly brisk clip, though compared to Sonic's blistering speed (or heck, even Knuckles or Rouge's "speed") I can understand why people would be a little turned off by it.

Werehog was a really mixed bag. On one hand, it lent itself to some pretty darn good platforming. Not traditional Sonic platforming, but if you were a fan of platformers, I can't see how you couldn't enjoy that aspect of the gameplay. Heck, even beating up on monsters was pretty fun. The bad thing was that there was so much of that combat gameplay that after a while, I just wanted all the enemies to disappear so I could get back to platforming. Then of course we have the aspect that the Werehog took up a good 3/4 of the game compared to Sonic. It wasn't as bad when there were 2 or 3 alternate gameplay styles because Sonic/Shadow still had the most levels of all the characters, casting the illusion that there was more speed gameplay than there actually was. With one alternate gameplay style that dominated the game, that illusion was gone. And I think that's really why the Werehog left such a bad taste in fans' mouths.

#11 FTA

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:17 PM

I honestly don't get that myself. The 360/PS3 version is superior in basically every way possible.


I don't agree with that, I think in some areas it was, but in other ways I prefer the Wii version. Kinda like the 2 soundtracks to Sonic CD, I don't really believe one is totally superior to the other.

But I do agree with this topic, I would happily take the Werehog over the Mech-Shooting and (SA2) Treasure Hunting levels any day of the week.

#12 ChikaBoing

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:31 PM

I disagree and I have the 360 version too so I think I know what I'm talking about. The werehog stages in 360 are over 20 minutes long. Which means if the Wii and PS2 had the exact same stages as the werehog on the 360 and PS3, the Wii/PS2 versions basically divided the werehog levels into parts. The 360/PS3 version meanwhile, COMBINES all of them into one extremely boring and tedious level. So I think the way the Werehog was implemented in the 360/PS3 version was WORST. At least in the Wii/PS2, you could take breaks to go replay the fun daytime stages. But hey, the ratio was a little better in 360/PS3 at least, as there's still more Werehog on the Wii/PS2. That's ultimately why I prefer the 360 version over the Wii version.

It might LOOK like there is more daytime in Unleashed 360, but that's only true if you don't look at the actual length of the levels.


But the there were only 10 Sonic/Shadow Levels. Which took 2-3 Minutes, in comparison to Unleashed which even if you leveld up and knew the layouts, they took 3-5 Minutes,and you first time through sometimes even longer. Not only that but 2 Levels from Shadow were very similar to some of Sonic Levels(White Jungle,Final Chase) and 1 Sonic Level(Crazy Gadget) was very bad comapred to other Speed Levels, since it played like a Shooting Stage but with Sonic and had a incredibly frustrating Gravity Puzzle at the end. So the amount of quality Speed Levels in SA2 was very very very thin. And when I played the Treasure Hunting the first time when I was young they took me about half an hour. So my personal Experience with Sonic Adventure 2 wasnt that great at all.

#13 RidersDX

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:43 PM

But the there were only 10 Sonic/Shadow Levels. Which took 2-3 Minutes, in comparison to Unleashed which even if you leveld up and knew the layouts, they took 3-5 Minutes,and you first time through sometimes even longer. Not only that but 2 Levels from Shadow were very similar to some of Sonic Levels(White Jungle,Final Chase) and 1 Sonic Level(Crazy Gadget) was very bad comapred to other Speed Levels, since it played like a Shooting Stage but with Sonic and had a incredibly frustrating Gravity Puzzle at the end. So the amount of quality Speed Levels in SA2 was very very very thin. And when I played the Treasure Hunting the first time when I was young they took me about half an hour. So my personal Experience with Sonic Adventure 2 wasnt that great at all.

That's not necessarily the case for the Wii version where some of the daytime stages take a minute and a half. Though, Idk which version we should be referring to from now on. White Jungle and Final Chase still had many differences from Sonic's versions, they just obviously look the same. Final Chase had the whole running up tubes while Rush was very rail heavy. I feel like both versions of the area felt different in many ways, despite actually looking the same.

And you know, Crazy Gadget is my FAVORITE part of the entire game. I LOVE what they did with Sonic in that level. It felt fast, yet there was actually some platforming/puzzles going on in the level not really seen in many other Sonic/Shadow levels. That is what I feel Sonic games should be like today actually. But that's just me.

But still, the thing about the Werehog is that it drags far longer then any of the mech shooting or treasure hunting levels ever did. The werehog takes forever to complete in both versions of the game, ESPECIALLY without all the upgrades you get while progressing through the game, which makes the werehog stages even longer the first time. Although it's the same case with daytime, I think it is MUCH more apparent in the Werehog stage because it's easier to die, so you have to take more time combating because you don't want to die and have to start fighting all the enemies AGAIN from scratch.

#14 Jayhawker30

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 03:59 PM

They were all enjoyable to me.

I regret nothing.

#15 EXshad

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:12 PM

The werehog's style and how he plays isn't all that bad. That's not the problem: It's how much of him we get in relation to the regular Sonic, and how long the levels dragged on. His levels can go on for 10 minutes, sometimes good chunks of it spent just standing still on a floating platform waiting for it to move to another one, or just walking painfully slowly on a balancing beam, or pushing a handful or crates at under -3 MPH. The treasure hunting stages in SA2 can drag for just as long, and that's why, I think, they both fail: because, while they aren't that bad, they overstay their welcome and force you to do things that just aren't fun to reach the goal.

In fact, that's why I like the shooting stages. Are they shallow? Kinda. Are they fun? Kinda. Do they overstay their welcome? Besides maybe one or two levels, no. They're quick, they're fun, they usually don't drag on for more than 4 or 5 minutes at the most, and there's enough stuff going on to keep you entertained. Plus, it's linear, with a clear path for you to follow, which is a plus for an alternative gameplay like shooting or combat.

Edited by EXshad, 02 January 2011 - 06:32 PM.


#16 eboni

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:41 PM

I loved Werehog. I think many people considered it to being too stupid of a concept to deal with. Sure it was stupid, very freaking stupid and not the best idea at all! But I gave it a chance and found that I really enjoyed it! In fact I think it gave the game more depth, maybe not the best way to attain depth, but depth nonetheless.

I also enjoyed Treasure Hunting and Shooting levels. Much more in Sonic Adventure 2 than in the prequel, but they were fun still! It's just a matter of how enjoyable it can be. I liked all forms of gameplay.

#17 Scar

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:57 PM

The only reason the werehog wasn't popular, was because it was Sonic.
If it had been Knuckles or something, then people would have been all over it. That and it was SA2 and it has the nostalgia factor.

From a pure technical standpoint, the werehog is undoubtedly superior.
SA2's Treasure hunting levels, whist fun for being huge and good for exploration, most of them never really had any worthwhile level design. They were, just chunks of land that you could glide aroung over. As for the objective; Find 3 incredibly tiny fragments of Master Emerald in massive stages with an appauling radar system. You could only find the emeralds in a specific order. Why? To add fake challenge, they made the hints incredibly cryptic and unecessarily generic. In fact the way the hint system was designed, it was only really effective once you'd already played ths stages. Who on their first time playing knew where "Pumpkin Triangle" was in Pumpkin Hill? Nobody. You'd have to fly around the whole stage looking for where it could be, once you found it, you'd have to search around in the area, whilst wrestling an appauling camera system. Controls at least were solid. Mad Space, Meteor Herd and Security Hall, were the worst stages. Sure they were the biggest ones, but when you have to find 3 small Emerald Shard, it go tedious. Mad Space's gravity was annoying, because it was before Mario Galaxy and thus didn't work properly. Overall, SA1 had far superior designed Treasure hunting levels. The Radar worked in any order. Tikal was much better at giving hints, as she actually pointed you in the direction you needed to go. The levels were large enough to explore, but no so obscenely huge, that finding the shards became a chore.
However, we aren't really judging SA1 are we.
The Mech shooting levels were the worst stages. Principly because they were dull. At least you could derive some amusement from gliding around vast stages and just dicking around. But the Mech shooting? No. They were linear. Too linear. You think that Unleashed Day stages are linear, then you haven't seen the SA2 Mech levels. Most stages were just you walking down a small corridor, using a boring, but functional lock-on mechanic. There was no exploration, save for the occasional extra powerup. You just started, and went to the end. Occasionally, you'd get extremely long but easy stages, that last 15 minutes, but don't actually have any engaging gameplay inbetween. These stages did their job, but were just boring and most of Tails' levels felt completely unecessary.

The Werehog is a different beast. I'll be referring to the PS360 version. The stages were at worst functional. The controls were responsive enough to work. The combat, whilst formulaic, was varied enough. There were plenty of moves and combos you could use. The camera was very good, it was usually a decent distance away from Sonic, rather than being annoyingly close-up. When you needed to move it, it worked fine and hardly caused too many problems.
Stages themselves, I thought were actually very well designed. They were large and gave you a good sense of scale. Puzzles were usually pathetic. Level design was good. Featured plenty of actual platforming. The only thing that caused a real problem was the combat. Rooms where you had to defeat all enemies to move on were rather cheap and annoying. Dark Titans and Dark Mothers can go fuck themselves. They were of impressive size, but they were too difficult early on in the game, due to poor stats, and just cheap in later stages(Eggmanland: 2 at once with a Wizard that healed them.....fantastic). Brawling only served to lengthen the gameplay time. Removing them would cut the stage length down by at least a half if not more.

I personally consider the Werehog to be much better overall. It actually involved platforming. Sure Gliding around was cool and fun, but there was no platforming because you could pretty much fly over the levels. Mech shooting was just boring. Werehog, whilst arguably inappropriate, was at least engaging.

How much enjoyment you derived from the game is subjective, but from a design point of veiw, the Werehog is just better executed.

Also, the whole idea that "The werehog is worse because it was a stupid idea!" is bullshit. Sure it may have been a stupid idea, but it was still overall better executed than the Treasure/Mech levels.

Edited by Scar, 30 December 2010 - 05:00 PM.


#18 Azure Yakuzu

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 05:22 PM

Is it wrong to say I loved both,and didn't really give a damn about its flaws?

I mean the mech levels were repetetive with its attacks, didn't really have much of an impact on the story(Well Tails` at least)
, and the controls were somewhat clunky. However if it was just Eggman, it would've been fine, because while it still would've had all of the above, it kinda fits with Eggman's theme so it would've worked, Tails however, no I kept wondering why is Tails in this mech thing, instead of running around and flying.

The treasure hunting levels get boring real fast, yeah you can explore but that's it, there's nothing for you to do in those stages, no progression, no nothing its just a closed space. It does however have the best way Knuckles controls, and its the last game where he's actually fast, I go to Meteor Herd just to dig up the speed shoes and run around.

The Werehog may be just as repetive as the mech stages, but at least you have different combos to mix it up, actual progression instead of being stuck in one area, and pretty decent platforming challenges.
And people who say the Treasure Hunting levels weren't long, yes. they are long, very long specifically Aquatic Mine, and Pumpkin Hill, and Meteor Herd those levels can go on for over 30 minutes without you finding crap.

#19 T-Man

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 06:51 PM

Although the Werehog admittedly had more depth to it, and the platforming sections were decent, the combat always got tedious, repetitive and overall boring really quickly. This is made even worse by the fact that these stages can drag on for nearly HALF AN HOUR. The mech shooting is admittedly slower-paced, but I've always found it to be simple, straightforward, arcade-like fun because of how satisfying it is to lock onto a bunch of enemies, release B and watch as you rack up tons of points, and there's some pretty good platforming too. As for treasure hunting, I have a pretty large soft spot in my heart for collect-a-thon platformers, which may contribute to why I enjoy these those stages.

#20 MarcelloF

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:22 PM

The only reason the werehog wasn't popular, was because it was Sonic.
If it had been Knuckles or something, then people would have been all over it. That and it was SA2 and it has the nostalgia factor.


No. I hate it when people use this arrogant and stupid argument. I would've disliked it if it was Knuckles, too. Don't be so arrogant and make everyone look so petty.

I think the Treasure Hunting and Mech-Shooting more than the Werehog, because they were more fun. The Werehog was just annoying, with few saving graces. The combat was not fun at all. On the contrary it was boring and tedious. The levels were, with 30+ minutes, way too long. I give the Werehog the bosses, though. They were fun.

The Treasure Hunting and Shooting levels I could get through fast and I could have fun.




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