153 replies to this topic

[Vertekins]

I still believe that Eggman was at his absolute best in SA2. He is commendably evil in that game with few comedic aspects. Most of Eggman's goofyness in SA2 is nicely portrayed by such things as him clearly editting Egyptian-esque ruins with his face, like murals/stone reliefs in Hidden Base and statues with metal Eggman heads with Eggman faces in the other Egyptian stages. So whilst Eggman has practically no comedic or goofy mannerisms in his speech or actions to allow his evilness, competence and threatening-ness to come to the surface in SA2, it's still rampant in the stages that bear his influence. I like subtlety like that.

[Diogenes]

Honestly I think Eggman is pretty close to perfect right now. I might bump up the "serious evil madman" side a little from what it was in Colors, but only a little; he's supposed to be goofy and kind of a joke, and especially in Colors it's obvious he's quite unhinged even when he's being goofy. I mean just listen to his announcements; seems like almost every other line is some sort of cartoonish evil showing his disregard for human life, animal/plant life, alien life, hedgehog life, etc. And while Colors tends to treat things lightly, what he's actually doing is pretty damn evil; he's capturing an alien race, sucking the life out of them to turn them into negative versions of themselves, then using their energy to power a mind control ray big enough to put the entire planet under his control. That's some damn good villainy.

[LimeTH]

I still believe that Eggman was at his absolute best in SA2. He is commendably evil in that game with few comedic aspects. Most of Eggman's goofyness in SA2 is nicely portrayed by such things as him clearly editting Egyptian-esque ruins with his face, like murals/stone reliefs in Hidden Base and statues with metal Eggman heads with Eggman faces in the other Egyptian stages. So whilst Eggman has practically no comedic or goofy mannerisms in his speech or actions to allow his evilness, competence and threatening-ness to come to the surface in SA2, it's still rampant in the stages that bear his influence. I like subtlety like that.

Don't forget him scratching his butt while watching the news story about Shadow.


I think everything I could say about Eggman everyone else has already summed up. He's supposed to be goofy while still somewhat of a threat. He was evil enough in Colors, what with his complete disregard for the safety and lifes of pretty much everybody who wasnt him.

[Scar]

I would prefer that Robotnik/Eggmans evilness be shown through what he does as opposed to what he says. Remember, Sonic is a kids game. He can talk and act goofy and be comical in the cutscenes. However, his true evil should be shown through the things he as done. For example:
Eggman takes animals and uses them to power his robot army. He orders said robots to try to kill Sonic no matter what (all of this done off-screen).
When Sonic Destroys the robots himself, the animal is free. However, if the robot tries to kamekaze Sonic, then the animal dies with the robot and doesn't pop out. That is a whole lot more subtle than being generically evil and shouting around like SatAM Rbotnik, but it is nonetheless, really fucking evil.

That said, it doesn't stop him from having scenes where he talks and acts evil, but these scenes should really appear towards the end of the game's story.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I would prefer that Robotnik/Eggmans evilness be shown through what he does as opposed to what he says. Remember, Sonic is a kids game. He can talk and act goofy and be comical in the cutscenes. However, his true evil should be shown through the things he as done. For example:
Eggman takes animals and uses them to power his robot army. He orders said robots to try to kill Sonic no matter what (all of this done off-screen).
When Sonic Destroys the robots himself, the animal is free. However, if the robot tries to kamekaze Sonic, then the animal dies with the robot and doesn't pop out. That is a whole lot more subtle than being generically evil and shouting around like SatAM Rbotnik, but it is nonetheless, really fucking evil.

That said, it doesn't stop him from having scenes where he talks and acts evil, but these scenes should really appear towards the end of the game's story.

SA1 is a pretty good example, throughout the entire game he's his usual hammy self, but after losing Chaos, the egg carrier, and having his last ditch effort foiled, he was pissed, and rather than kick and scream like he usually would, he uses the most chilling voice ever in a calm scary self. Seriously when he said "you fool. away before i make mincmeat out of you" I was legitimetally scared, because he sounded so pissed yet calm.

[rawr girl]

i hate the way robotnik is now. he's like the kiddie evil dude who wants to take over the world but his plans are just plain, stupid.

i loved it when he was actually EVIL

[Azure Yakuzu]

i hate the way robotnik is now. he's like the kiddie evil dude who wants to take over the world but his plans are just plain, stupid.

i loved it when he was actually EVIL

Did you not read the above post? He sucks the living energy out of helpless aliens, leaving them as dark versions of themselves, and tries to brainwash the entire Galaxy, and almost succeeded. And this is after, blowing the world apart. He may act goofy, but he gets results.

[Kyoryu Aqua]

I used to be in the same boat as the OP, but one of Mechano's well thought out posts has changed my tone a fair bit. With the new writing, the Eggbotnik of the games acts identical to the one in the comics. IMO it's the perfect balance. I mean look at that smile! You can't really be an under serious grimdark villain with a grin that big, a belly that huge, and a fondness for EGGS.

I think he's more evil now than he's ever been before. The StH TV show Eggbotnik was basically textbook 90s grimdark blah blah madness whatever. Nowadays, he does some REALLY jacked up stuff on the sides, but you often have to look between the lines to see it because he's hiding it with that playful exterior. The dude basically makes carnivals from hell! How is that not awesome?

I actually kinda get a Joker vibe from him now, and I kinda like that.

[Core]

The one where you simply have to put two and two together. Wisps run on "Hyper-Go-On" energy. Hyper-Go-On energy = Life energy.
Eggman is sucking out their "Hyper-Go-On" energy. What happens when you lose all your life energy? You die.

Obviously it was vague enough so kids wouldn't realize it, but I thought it was pretty clear. >>

But they don't die, they just got turned into nega-Wisps.

Anyway, even if Eggman does plenty of evil things in Colors, that's not enough to make him a good villain. I would say that the way he acts and how he is portrayed is more important than what he actually does.
And I think Colors went a bit too far in the lightness and goofiness. The scene just before the last boss was nice, but that's not enough.

[Kyoryu Aqua]

But they don't die, they just got turned into nega-Wisps.

Anyway, even if Eggman does plenty of evil things in Colors, that's not enough to make him a good villain. I would say that the way he acts and how he is portrayed is more important than what he actually does.
And I think Colors went a bit too far in the lightness and goofiness. The scene just before the last boss was nice, but that's not enough.

Shouldn't his actions speak louder than his words though?

Also I see Mechano is posting. I am bracing for epic.

[Vampfox]

but his plans are just plain, stupid.

I agree that his plans are really stupid. I mean Robotnik has an IQ of 300, but he certainy does not act like it.

[DarkLight]

I agree with everyone here about how goofiness balances menace. Eggman is evil, but not to the point to where he becomes as bland, uninteresting like in SatAM. I personally don't care much about the show because I never grew with it or knew of it's existence until the Internet. I just don't see the appeal in a villain who

1. Sits on his ass in his base and has the minions do everything for him

2. Has no personality outside, "RAGHH, I'M EVIL. I DO BAD THINGS CAUSE I'M EVIL." No personality means no interest IMHO.

3. Is more obese than Sega-Eggman with a generic overlord design. Not really a menacing picture TBH.

4. Most importantly, is not funny or has redeeming qualities as Dr. Mechano would put it.

I personally think Darkfox has not played either Unleashed or Colors to see how villainous Eggman is

[Scar]

I agree that his plans are really stupid. I mean Robotnik has an IQ of 300, but he certainly does not act like it.

Well, what do you expect a mad scientist in a cartoony video game series for children to do?
Is he going to be evil in a sophisticated way by creating machines and robots to destroy large businesses, causing their share prices to go down, whilst simultaneously his stocks and shares to go up in value, thus allowing him to profit massively? Seriously, "Take over the world", "Destroy the world" is kind of as far as you can take it.

Edited by Scar, 04 January 2011 - 07:22 PM.

[DarkLight]

I agree that his plans are really stupid. I mean Robotnik has an IQ of 300, but he certainy does not act like it.

IQ reflects intelligence, not behavior.

What's wrong with a villain who enjoys the thought of being loved. Sounds a lot better than someone who uses fear to get what he wants if you ask me.

[Balding Spider]

i hate the way robotnik is now. he's like the kiddie evil dude who wants to take over the world but his plans are just plain, stupid.

i loved it when he was actually EVIL

Harvesting races of peaceful aliens to harness their power so he can create a giant mind control canon, and recreating their home planets into his own image equals non-evil and stupid to you?

[Djawed]

Robotnik was awesome in colors. He acted like I imagined him he did in the classics if there were VA's. The whole cript and VA actually. It was a more lighthearted game however, but I think that was more of a "sonic colors" thing. It was obvious from the first teaser trailer that the game was going to be a lot more lighthearted so I find it weird if anyone expected different. I'm sure future games will take things much further.

Edited by Jaouad, 04 January 2011 - 07:28 PM.

[Vampfox]

Well, what do you expect a mad scientist in a cartoony video game series for children to do?

He could have acted the way he did in Sonic Adventure 2, which is also a game for children. He doesn't have to act like a manchild.

[Core]

Shouldn't his actions speak louder than his words though?

That's not how I feel. No matter what he does, if him and his actions are portrayed in a funny way, I can't take him seriously.
Besides, I'm not sure attitude and behavior count as "words" rather than as "actions".

[Ice King]

You're comparing apples to oranges in personality qualities. "Goofy vs. serious" is not the same thing as "good vs. evil," nor is it the same thing as "effective vs. ineffective." There's no sliding scale of goofy vs. evil, as they aren't even the same type of quality.

For example,
- The Joker is a goofy, evil, effective villain.
- Bowser is a goofy, not too evil (He has some redeeming qualities), yet still effective villain.
- Dr. Eggman is rather goofy (with a capacity for seriousness), rather evil (with a capacity for humanization and redeeming qualities), and rather effective (unless a new villain's being shoehorned into the game, in which case it isn't really his fault).

So let's get a few key issues out of the way.

Sega Eggman is not, nor was he ever, SatAM Robotnik.


Get the image of 1990s Dr. Robotnik as a red-eyed, metal-armed, tin-voiced, heartless cyborg bent on pollution and death out of your mind, because that isn't what the character is- or has ever been- about. The Eggman of the games has always been a goofy narcissist who wants to control the world to satisfy his own ego and his own greed, but he's never been the sort to enjoy the suffering of others for its own sake.

No, unlike Julian, Dr. Eggman simply doesn't care what happens to the animals who power his robots, the citizens of the cities he invades, or the heroes he gleefully attacks. While Julian has a personal hatred of everything but himself, Eggman has a general apathy to the same- In most cases at least.

- Julian roboticizes animals out of a sense of superiority and general disdain for them. Eggman uses animals as power sources because they're plentiful and convenient.
- Julian's goal is turning animals into robots. For Eggman, the animal-powered Badniks are a means to an end (Ruling the world), not the end itself.
- Julian simply wants mindless automatons, while Eggman by every indication wants to rule over living and sentient subjects. Eggman's an egotist, and wants to be loved.
- Julian has no deep or explained reason for being as twisted as he is. Eggman's backstory is somewhat tragic, with the death of his childhood hero and all- And even then, he turned out better than his SatAM counterpart.
- Julian is unrealistically cruel. Eggman is selfish and petty, but not mean for its own sake. He'll keep his prisoners in relative comfort, respect his enemies, and generally avoid mindless killing if it's a feasible option. He's a bad man, but not heartless.

SatAM's Julian is Robotnik in name only. He barely resembles the character on which he is based, in both looks and personality. I feel he should have been given a different name and appearance altogether, as he has so little in common with the Eggman of the games. I really despise Julian- not because he's extremely evil and detestable- but because he's a horribly-written character. There exist interesting irredeemable villains, but Julian is not one of them. He's a flat, uninteresting, and utterly bland example of a generic Sonic antagonist, essentially turning Eggman into the very sorts of one-dimensional characters who replace him in the modern games.

I'm no fan of Julian, and frankly I find him an incredibly uncreative character.

Classic Eggman was just as goofy as he is today, if not more so.

Let's see what the supposedly "darker" classic Eggman did...

- Attempted world conquest with cute little toy-like robots.
- Fought with cartoonish weapons like wrecking balls, giant mallets, cartoon bombs, and the like.
- The Death Egg, a giant Death Star parody with his face on it.
- Predating Colors, Eggman's base in Chaotix- Newtrogic High Zone- was an egotistical amusement park filled with fun attractions and colorful tributes to the doctor.
- Comical narcissism in general, such as giant Eggman statues in Sonic CD and Sonic 3D Blast. To say nothing of the big Eggman-shaped mechas he fights Sonic with.

As you can see, classic Eggman was as big a goof as he is today. He was always a zany, comical character.

Eggman's humanized qualities are not an invention of the modern games.

Just as his goofiness was present in the classic games, the idea of Eggman having redeeming qualities, subdued kindness, or at the very least respect for his foes dates back to the original games.

Case in point, Sonic 2 for the Game Gear. As Sonic hurdles into a pit of lava at the end of Underground Zone, who rescues him from sudden death but his archnemesis, Dr. Eggman! While he only saves him so he can pit Sonic against his robot, it shows that the doctor has a sense of honor against his foe even here. The defeat of Sonic can't be some cheap accident- He has to defeat him fair and square in battle. This is a sort of honor that Julian knows none of.


Modern Eggman is still reasonably effective

Post-SA1 Eggman has still been the main antagonist and final boss of quite a few titles.

- Sonic Pocket Adventure
- Sonic Advance
- Sonic Advance 2
- Sonic Pinball Party
- Sonic Rush (Shared the role with Eggman Nega)
- Sonic Rush Adventure (Shared the role with Eggman Nega)
- Sonic Colors

Even in games where he wasn't the final antagonist, he often played a pivotal role against both Sonic and the other villain. Both SA1 and SA2 portrayed Eggman competently, despite him not being the final enemy- In SA2's case, he got lots of character development and even got to heroically help stop his grandfather's evil plan. So even when he's knocked out of the villain spotlight, he's still effective as an unlikely protagonist.

While games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog had rather unfortunate portrayals of the good doctor, I state that this is not always the case, and that modern Eggman continues to be a real antagonistic threat as he was in the classic era.

-----

My conclusion is this- Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik is a bad man. He does bad things, and his goals and motives are typically rooted in his own selfishness. This I do not contest. However, he has a nice side beneath all this, and on rare occasions may show hints of kindness or compassion to others. This, I feel, makes the character better, not worse- As Eggman is far more interesting as a character than a bland and irredeemable foe. Eggman, being a complex character, is more believable than Julian could possibly be to me.

The Eggman of the games is the same as he always was. The only difference is that the newer games are more story-driven and, ergo, the qualities he's always had are now far more prominent and noticeable. But I reject the notion that Sega Eggman was somehow darker or more evil in the 90s than he is now.

Edited by Dr. Mechano, 04 January 2011 - 07:47 PM.

[DarkLight]

You're comparing apples to oranges in personality qualities. "Goofy vs. serious" is not the same thing as "good vs. evil," nor is it the same thing as "effective vs. ineffective." There's no sliding scale of goofy vs. evil, as they aren't even the same type of quality.

For example,
- The Joker is a goofy, evil, effective villain.
- Bowser is a goofy, not too evil (He has some redeeming qualities), yet still effective villain.
- Dr. Eggman is rather goofy (with a capacity for seriousness), rather evil (with a capacity for humanization and redeeming qualities), and rather effective (unless a new villain's being shoehorned into the game, in which case it isn't really his fault).

So let's get a few key issues out of the way.

Sega Eggman is not, nor was he ever, SatAM Robotnik.


Get the image of 1990s Dr. Robotnik as a red-eyed, metal-armed, tin-voiced, heartless cyborg bent on pollution and death out of your mind, because that isn't what the character is- or has ever been- about. The Eggman of the games has always been a goofy narcissist who wants to control the world to satisfy his own ego and his own greed, but he's never been the sort to enjoy the suffering of others for its own sake.

No, unlike Julian, Dr. Eggman simply doesn't care what happens to the animals who power his robots, the citizens of the cities he invades, or the heroes he gleefully attacks. While Julian has a personal hatred of everything but himself, Eggman has a general apathy to the same- In most cases at least.

- Julian roboticizes animals out of a sense of superiority and general disdain for them. Eggman uses animals as power sources because they're plentiful and convenient.
- Julian's goal is turning animals into robots. For Eggman, the animal-powered Badniks are a means to an end (Ruling the world), not the end itself.
- Julian simply wants mindless automatons, while Eggman by every indication wants to rule over living and sentient subjects. Eggman's an egotist, and wants to be loved.
- Julian has no deep or explained reason for being as twisted as he is. Eggman's backstory is somewhat tragic, with the death of his childhood hero and all- And even then, he turned out better than his SatAM counterpart.
- Julian is unrealistically cruel. Eggman is selfish and petty, but not mean for its own sake. He'll keep his prisoners in relative comfort, respect his enemies, and generally avoid mindless killing if it's a feasible option. He's a bad man, but not heartless.

SatAM's Julian is Robotnik in name only. He barely resembles the character on which he is based, in both looks and personality. I feel he should have been given a different name and appearance altogether, as he has so little in common with the Eggman of the games. I really despise Julian- not because he's extremely evil and detestable- but because he's a horribly-written character. There exist interesting irredeemable villains, but Julian is not one of them. He's a flat, uninteresting, and utterly bland example of a generic Sonic antagonist, essentially turning Eggman into the very sorts of one-dimensional characters who replace him in the modern games.

I'm no fan of Julian, and frankly I find him an incredibly uncreative character.

Classic Eggman was just as goofy as he is today, if not more so.

Let's see what the supposedly "darker" classic Eggman did...

- Attempted world conquest with cute little toy-like robots.
- Fought with cartoonish weapons like wrecking balls, giant mallets, cartoon bombs, and the like.
- The Death Egg, a giant Death Star parody with his face on it.
- Predating Colors, Eggman's base in Chaotix- Newtrogic High Zone- was an egotistical amusement park filled with fun attractions and colorful tributes to the doctor.
- Comical narcissism in general, such as giant Eggman statues in Sonic CD and Sonic 3D Blast. To say nothing of the big Eggman-shaped mechas he fights Sonic with.

As you can see, classic Eggman was as big a goof as he is today. He was always a zany, comical character.

Eggman's humanized qualities are not an invention of the modern games.

Just as his goofiness was present in the classic games, the idea of Eggman having redeeming qualities, subdued kindness, or at the very least respect for his foes dates back to the original games.

Case in point, Sonic 2 for the Game Gear. As Sonic hurdles into a pit of lava at the end of Underground Zone, who rescues him from sudden death but his archnemesis, Dr. Eggman! While he only saves him so he can pit Sonic against his robot, it shows that the doctor has a sense of honor against his foe even here. The defeat of Sonic can't be some cheap accident- He has to defeat him fair and square in battle. This is a sort of honor that Julian knows none of.


Modern Eggman is still reasonably effective

Post-SA1 Eggman has still been the main antagonist and final boss of quite a few titles.

- Sonic Pocket Adventure
- Sonic Advance
- Sonic Advance 2
- Sonic Pinball Party
- Sonic Rush (Shared the role with Eggman Nega)
- Sonic Rush Adventure (Shared the role with Eggman Nega)
- Sonic Colors

Even in games where he wasn't the final antagonist, he often played a pivotal role against both Sonic and the other villain. Both SA1 and SA2 portrayed Eggman competently, despite him not being the final enemy- In SA2's case, he got lots of character development and even got to heroically help stop his grandfather's evil plan. So even when he's knocked out of the villain spotlight, he's still effective as an unlikely protagonist.

While games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog had rather unfortunate portrayals of the good doctor, I state that this is not always the case, and that modern Eggman continues to be a real antagonistic threat as he was in the classic era.

-----

My conclusion is this- Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik is a bad man. He does bad things, and his goals and motives are typically rooted in his own selfishness. This I do not contest. However, he has a nice side beneath all this, and on rare occasions may show hints of kindness or compassion to others. This, I feel, makes the character better, not worse- As Eggman is far more interesting as a character than a bland and irredeemable foe. Eggman, being a complex character, is more believable than Julian could possibly be to me.

The Eggman of the games is the same as he always was. The only difference is that the newer games are more story-driven and, ergo, the qualities he's always had are now far more prominent and noticeable. But I reject the notion that Sega Eggman was somehow darker or more evil in the 90s than he is now.

Thank you. I knew you would be posting in this thread.