48 replies to this topic

[-Mark-]

Well, it's occurred to me a bit recently that shields seem to be all but dead in the 3D games now. The last 3D game they appeared in was Shadow the hedgehog; 06 mentioned them in the manual but they ultimately weren't in the game, and Unleashed/ Colours just outright didn't use them. In fact, with the way the 3D games are evolving, a lot of the classic items (Speed shoes, invincibility) are fast becoming obsolete (and Colours outright ditched items in favour of the Wisps).

Okay, granted, boosting does make speed shoes somewhat redundant, and the fact you're practically invincible whilst doing so almost replaces invincibility, too. Still, removing shields seems a little weird. But at the same time, in quite a few of the recent 3D games, taking a hit no long equates to losing every single ring, which could explain that.

Actually, sorry to derail my original point a bit, but as the series evolves, quite a lot of the series staples are being left on the wayside. I mean, we've lost the momentum-based speed in favour of the boost. Speed shoes and invincibility... yeah, in fact, the series seems to be replacing a lot with the boost these days. It's quite weird though, to take Unleashed or Colours, and realise that very little of the core gameplay mechanic is the same as it was back in Sonic 1.

Anyway, getting back to my original point somewhat; did anyone else notice or care that shields have been absent from the 3D games for the last half-decade? Do you think it matters?

Hell, even lightning shields/ Magnet Barriers have been made redundant by the boost automatically pulling in rings now. Boost replaces all these days, it seems. D:

[Adamis Fox]

A gem in 06 allowed you a free Electric shield.
But yes, I noticed that too.

[-Mark-]

...in fact, the the 3D games, a hundred rings doesn't even give you an extra life half the time anymore, does it?

Bloody hell, it's actually quite scary to think how much of the classic formula has actually been dropped as the series has moved on.

[Adamis Fox]

The shields would have been redundant in Unleashed. When you get hit, you lose half your rings (or 20, depends of how many rings you have).
Would they have been useful in Colours anyway?

[Sega DogTagz]

06 mentioned them in the manual but they ultimately weren't in the game,

Somebody apparently skipped past the unlockable Gem's for Sonic.

The yellow gem you could buy from the shop basically gives Sonic access to the Thundershield. It could deflect damage and even sucked in rings. On top of that, in the stages where Sonic is tasked with carrying Elise around, you can pretty much summon up a barrier shield that had the added functionality of letting Sonic pull off a Jesus impression.

Edit: Somebody beat me to that first part.

Edited by Sega DogTagz, 07 February 2011 - 10:04 PM.

[SpinDashMaster]

Actually, S06 had the Yellow Gem, which was in many ways an Electric Shield equivalent. You're immune to physical attacks as long as you generate a shield, but you are still susceptible to gunfire attacks (which make you drop 1 ring per hit) even if it's up. You can even use the shield to walk across lava in the Iblis Phase 2 fight.

But, you do have a valid point. Sonic Colors competition (especially in Ring stats and the Egg Shuttle, whose maxing out requires ring bonus) is considerably more difficult compared to games where shields are provided, but only in areas that are combat-heavy, for instance, robot pursuits in Drill Wisp areas. In most of the other 3D platformers, however, the main threat to a ring spill is more along the lines of something that kills you in one hit anyway, like a pitfall or exceeding a time limit (SA2B Green Forest, Security Hall).

The fact that shields have been outright removed overall seems to have little impact on the competition front. Sure, there's a few places where I'd like to have them, but the keyword there is few. It's not enough for the game to deserve a shield for it to only be needed in a few areas.

[Codes in Trance]

This topic makes me sad

[NinSage]

yea, but you just listed half a dozen reasons why those shields and old mechanics are redundant/obsolete. so, no, I don't miss redundant/obsolete items in the Sonic games.

the only thing I missed about the old shields was how in Sonic 3 they had unique powers (like the flame boost and the double jump with the electrical thing)... but the double jump addition in recent games makes that redundant and the new wisps replace the "power up" aspect of those old shields.

the balance of speed and platforming has never been better than in Colors and UnWiished.

and the 100 rings thing? frankly I think games in general need to do away ENTIRELY with the "lives" mechanic.

yes, players should be able to die and then merely restart from wherever the game deems necessary. but the "lives" idea is a remnant left over from the arcade days where losing all lives meant your high score was finished and you had to insert another quarter. quarter-sucking of the arcade days is over and gamers don't care about "high scores" in modern games.

so, yea, if the shields came back with some sort of NOVEL gameplay in mind, I would welcome them, otherwise, bring on the future!

[Scar]

3D requires a lot of changes to be made, because things don't work necessarily the same as they do in 2D.
The most classic a 3D game as gotten is Sonic Heroes. That game had everything from sheilds to a monitor for rings and items instead of the usual bubble-thing.
In fact, I think the Heroes engine is a goog place to start. When you picked up speed, you really picked up speed. It was probably the fastest 3D game that didn't have a boost button. The level design also had a fairly good amount of platforming thrown in (though the levels usually were tracks floating over a giant pit).
Yes the Heroes engine was flawed, you'd slip and slide all over the place; it felt like Sonic was made of helium when he jumped and the rail mechanics weere basically broken. However, if you tweak and improve those things it could be great. Tighten up the controls so that its a mix between Colours and SA2, make the jump retain intertia, and use Unleashed's rail-switching mechanic.

Woah. I got destracted there.

Yeah, anyway about dem sheilds. Electrical shield needs to be done carefully so it doesn't fuck up light-dashes. Flame shield would have to be changed significantly due to the advent of the jump-dash, you could use it to be able to pass through certain walls to gain access to new routes. E.g you could walk through a "curtain" of lava, or burn through certain dense shrubbery. Bubble sheild would obviously have the bounce, which is a very useful move to have.
Add some new shields as well. I dunno, like an Ice-shield, which allows you to walk on water. Wind shield that allows you to do the "Blue Tornado" from Sonic Heroes. Taking a hint from Colours, you could have a spike sheild that allows you to run on walls and ceilings.

[SpinDashMaster]

Come to think of it, what Scar said may have been the idea behind Sonic Colors: Instead of having various shields with certain abilities, have "wisps" that perform various special skills. The protective aspect of wisps is still there in most cases: Lasers, spikes, rockets, and frenzies all make you impervious to damage during use, and you cannot die by damage-without-rings while using Hovers or Drills.

But to have such an array of skills, even if only usable one at a time, can easily break a game if there wasn't some kind of limit to its usage. That's probably where the concept of using wisps that are expendable and only usable once (in general) comes from.

[Diogenes]

Meh. I never found the series' items to be particularly iconic (aside from the rings), and if they don't fit the gameplay or aren't necessary, I don't mind them being gone.

[ChikaBoing]

We all can blame this on Mr. Hashimoto.

[Tornado]

but the double jump addition in recent games makes that redundant and the new wisps replace the "power up" aspect of those old shields.

Arguably to the detriment of the games themselves.

the balance of speed and platforming has never been better than in Colors and UnWiished.

There was platforming in Unleashed?

Spoiler

Mario, Luigi and Yoshi trek across ice and snow to stop the shelled ones' schemes. But Bowser's slick; in one last trick, he takes the dearest thing of all. Now Tornado is Missing!!

Edited by Tornado, 08 February 2011 - 03:18 AM.

[Shadzter]

Actually, S06 had the Yellow Gem, which was in many ways an Electric Shield equivalent. You're immune to physical attacks as long as you generate a shield, but you are still susceptible to gunfire attacks (which make you drop 1 ring per hit) even if it's up. You can even use the shield to walk across lava in the Iblis Phase 2 fight.

Why am I only learning this now?

[SpinDashMaster]

If you intend to time attack the boss fight that way, you're doing it wrong. A well-thrown sky gem at the pillar works better.

But yeah. Cool stuff in games? Ask me. Otherwise I'm off topic so I need to gtfo.

[Rusty Spy]

did anyone else notice or care that shields have been absent from the 3D games for the last half-decade? Do you think it matters?

Yes and it's saddening. Less so that shields have been neglected, but the fact that bonus items in general have been neglected horribly recently.

And your entirely right about the boost replacing everything these days, which is precisely why I want it either gone, or redone (hint). I hate how it's basically God Mode for Sonic, and pretty much removes any kind of depth the gameplay mechanics had. It's what you'd get if Mario could have a near infinite Super Star, Fire Mario, Cloud Mario, Ghost Mario etc. powers just by collecting some Star Bits. I hate enemies having "Push B to ignore" buttons attached and wish they were somewhat of a legitimate obstacle. I hate how being able to plow through enemies unhindered is no longer a reward and is now just par for the course.

The way the boost works now makes it feel like playing with all the cheats on.

...... Well since this IS specifically about shields, they should really expand on that method of powerups and include more types of shields.

You could rework the old shields to better fit in with modern moves. e.g, the Fire shield could be a nerfed substitute for the old Unleashed boost/air boost, and like Scar's idea, be able to burn through certain surfaces to reach different areas.

As for new ideas for shields, again, Scar has the right idea. Though as a further suggestion, the Wind shield should also allow you to do the Triangle Dive move from Heroes on wind currents. And there can be a Plasma shield or something to that effect that could let you charge a spindash to do the Light Speed Attack from SA1/2, only it'd work like the Laser Wisp from Colors, except it locks onto enemies.

Edited by Black Spy, 07 February 2011 - 11:02 PM.

[JezMM]

You know what always bothered me about the power-ups though? They're designed with the areas in mind. How many times do you replay an old Sonic game and use the same speedup/invincibility at the same spot as you always do because that's where the power-up is? Either there aren't many enemies to beat or there are a ton that exist there just to be ran through... I mean, rule of fun of course, same reason they stack up robots like bowling pins in particularly boostable areas in Unleashed/Colours, but still.


I don't mind that these elements have become redundant, because I'd rather be in control of when and where I can use such power-ups to my own advantage, not where the level designer decides to give me a treat.

[Phos]

double jump

Once I see that a platformer has a double jump I usually stop taking it seriously as a platformer. Really boring platforming and double jumping tend to appear together. It always just seems like in any game with a double jump you never single jump, and the physics never feel fun in their own right, never fluent or even particularly responsive. What I think is funniest is in games like God of War where the character is supposed to be about serious business or something and Kratos's double jump animation is this goofy little flip.

But the general lack of powerups mostly speaks to how so few designers seem to understand how to balance powerups anymore. Even Mario has been guilty of this recently. You will never get a powerup in a level that does not specifically require it. I understand having area specific powerups, but they aren't really powerups when there are none that are not area specific. It really turns them more into puzzles. Colors had this problem, and it only contributed to its chronic "play by algorithm" issues.

Edited by Phos, 07 February 2011 - 11:45 PM.

[American Ristar]

Like Phos mentioned, this is more about power-ups for me. I think lack of them hurts a platformer, and while I'd have agreed with the topic before Colors, the Wisps were just right. Taking abilities like the light dash and assigning them to place and purpose functions is how it should've been to start with. I agree the point Phos made about only necessary power-ups though. Pretty much, I miss the elemental shields out of nostalgia, not really their functions. It is really cool to see Sonic attract rings when he boosts. At the same time I hope not all future games will be as fast and reckless as Unleashed gameplay. I don't want to only boost. So that's where I think power-ups like these belong. I wouldn't say it's redundant at all.

Edited by Dabnikz, 08 February 2011 - 12:26 AM.

[Rusty Spy]

Once I see that a platformer has a double jump I usually stop taking it seriously as a platformer. Really boring platforming and double jumping tend to appear together. It always just seems like in any game with a double jump you never single jump, and the physics never feel fun in their own right, never fluent or even particularly responsive. What I think is funniest is in games like God of War where the character is supposed to be about serious business or something and Kratos's double jump animation is this goofy little flip.

Though I kinda agree, I still feel that it isn't a bad thing if the double jump itself isn't all that necessary in platforming or suits the style the game is following.

But the general lack of powerups mostly speaks to how so few designers seem to understand how to balance powerups anymore. Even Mario has been guilty of this recently. You will never get a powerup in a level that does not specifically require it. I understand having area specific powerups, but they aren't really powerups when there are none that are not area specific. It really turns them more into puzzles. Colors had this problem, and it only contributed to its chronic "play by algorithm" issues.

But to be honest, it makes them more fun that way. Dedicating specific levels or areas to these powers makes the gameplay more focused on their traits and takes full advantage of the powerup, letting them be used to traverse levels in many interesting ways.