1066 replies to this topic

[Crazizzle]

Heh,Nepenthe. Good stuff, I like your response.

I think my basic point is that it makes sense that, in a nostalgia game, people would be put off by a character that left a mostly negative reaction among fans. This could apply to Crisis City as a level to an extant, but a significant amount of the fanbase thinks the levels in '06 were cool and had nice designs and structure. Just..you know...bad gameplay. For Silver, though... the boss fights and gameplay weren't received well and there isn't much in the way of redeeming qualities for him in that game. And he's also been in one real Sonic game...that one. The Rivals games are obscure. There's little positive cache for him

People see Shadow and if they aren't fan dumb they think "Wow, I remember fighting him in SA2! That fight was cool, I liked SA2. Hopefully, he's in that role and not like other games." People see the Silver fight and they think..."Argh! That guy who kept picking me up and throwing me everywhere!" or "That guy with the Billiard Ball puzzles!". I'm cool with him being there, since the only other workable Modern Rival is Blaze. And ... since there's no Rush representation , it would have thrown people off. But still, on a visceral level, it's human to cringe at things that invoke negative memories.

I have to say though, I actually find Silver endearing. This is one thing the Archie comic has done well with, Silver. My take on him is that he wants to be a Knight Templar type...the kind that would do anything to make his world safe. But he's just so innocent at his core, very gullible and prone to emotional overreaction. There's some subtlety and depth in his character that goes beyond the broody angst you get from Shadow. And his gameplay style was kind of fun to mess with. I enjoyed Silver's levels in 2006. I wouldn't mind seeing a Silver spinoff. But yeah, he was pretty annoying in that game as a boss.

Heh, it's my first time discussing this fight too.

I think people assume that Perfect Chaos will be like he was in SA, there are still people who wonder if Silver will be a chase boss or an arena boss. Or who will fight him? There's a lot of mystery, which provokes debate.

Generations is awesome.

[Name's Ash. Housewares]

After reading up on the Death Egg boss and how it's similar to the original before changing completely, they'll more than likely go this route with Silver. The fight can take place in the original area to begin with, "It's no use!" and all that shit, but then Silver can throw Sonic through a wall or over to the castle, where the battle could proceed vertically with Silver flying around launching things at you. It would make for a great platform based boss.

And the Perfect Chaos mural popped straight in to my mind after the trailer. he looks strange, but i think this is how he should have looked. I'm looking forward to it.

[ProfessorZolo]

They really did turn chaos into a generic monster by taking away his most unique attribute: being made out of water. I loved chaos because the water was so pure, yet the monster was so evil. Pure evil? And later pure good. Something very fitting there.

The poetic-ness-ess of that is great and all, but you do remember he looked quite derpy, right? Making him look like a little bit more of a threat can hardly be a BAD thing, surely?

[Tmsp]

I like what Ive seen of Perfect Chaos, the new design gives him a more menacing aspect like a true God of Destruction deserves.

[SpikySprinter]

The poetic-ness-ess of that is great and all, but you do remember he looked quite derpy, right? Making him look like a little bit more of a threat can hardly be a BAD thing, surely?

He looked derpy in the DX version. He looked awesome in the FMV and the original Sonic Adventure.

[ProfessorZolo]

He looked derpy in the DX version. He looked awesome in the FMV and the original Sonic Adventure.

...There was a difference between versions? *heads to Youtube*

[Nepenthe]

Heh,Nepenthe. Good stuff, I like your response.

I think my basic point is that it makes sense that, in a nostalgia game, people would be put off by a character that left a mostly negative reaction among fans. This could apply to Crisis City as a level to an extant, but a significant amount of the fanbase thinks the levels in '06 were cool and had nice designs and structure. Just..you know...bad gameplay. For Silver, though... the boss fights and gameplay weren't received well and there isn't much in the way of redeeming qualities for him in that game. And he's also been in one real Sonic game...that one. The Rivals games are obscure. There's little positive cache for him

People see Shadow and if they aren't fan dumb they think "Wow, I remember fighting him in SA2! That fight was cool, I liked SA2. Hopefully, he's in that role and not like other games." People see the Silver fight and they think..."Argh! That guy who kept picking me up and throwing me everywhere!" or "That guy with the Billiard Ball puzzles!". I'm cool with him being there, since the only other workable Modern Rival is Blaze. And ... since there's no Rush representation , it would have thrown people off. But still, on a visceral level, it's human to cringe at things that invoke negative memories.

Someone appreciates me. :3


Anyway, you certainly could apply the same sentiment to Crisis City. If I may steal a quote from people around here, Generations wasn't made for the fans but for everyone. Everyone's general sentiment is that Sonic 06 is a crappy game in almost every conceivable area of game design, ergo the negative reaction to Crisis City's inclusion should be greater. But it's not, and the main reason why it's not is that, despite the stage's inherent crappiness from being in a crappy game, it's being remade, in two different level design styles not seen in 06 no less. The applicability of its quality the first time around is arguably negligible. So you'd think logic would dictate that the Silver boss be given the same benefit of the doubt as it's also being remade too.

I certainly understand the feelings behind opposition to Silver. I just find it silly when we're suddenly lauding what was actually one of the most frustrating stages in the entirety of 06, if for nothing else than its goddamned Mach Speed section and broken springs.

[Rawrdom]

...There was a difference between versions? *heads to Youtube*

Nothing in the opening, but gameplay the DX feature an 'updated' character model such as the characters. (I think)

[Deaf Guy in Music Plant]

I honestly don't care for Perfect Chaos' redesign. He's a water monster, not a lizard...The battle will still kick ass, I'm sure. Just a little nitpick, everything else is great.

[VizardJeffhog]

Well, I see nothing wrong with Perfect Chaos's design.

So it doesn't click to some people that he would just go from water to solid and back? He actually looks like he can kill you here, he looks pissed off, he looks more destructive than the tsunamis he can generate; graphics these days are the cinematics of yesteryear. Quoting, the Perfect Chaos of SA and its Gamecube/PC remake looks derpy.

Edited by VizardJeffhog, 06 October 2011 - 09:39 PM.

[ProfessorZolo]

*back from the Youtubes*
Hm. So, there was a minor difference between Adventure, and the one I played, DX. I don't see how being slightly less white makes him more awesome though. I mean, he still does the same goofy lip flapping and waving from side to side. The model is the same too, isn't it?

Nothing in the opening, but gameplay the DX feature an 'updated' character model such as the characters. (I think)

Ah yes, I saw the difference in the cutscenes. Now I REALLY don't think Ryan fits Sonic at all. Not with his old, Dreamcast face anyway.

But anyway, Generations. Here's to hoping he doesn't look quite so gormless is this update.

[SpikySprinter]

I do like it how they kept his outer skin made of water. That's pretty cool

[Azure Yakuzu]

Heroes is perfectly relevant to the subject at hand. If we're free to criticize characters on the basis of their boss fights, Heroes is a damn good starting point as it's very easy to deride nearly the entire animal cast for being shit on that basis, in a similar manner as what is being done to Silver in this topic, in an effort for me to demonstrate the silliness of the rationale. Same with the Sonic and Shadow fights in 06.

But are the Heroes battles being remade? No, Silver's is, and almost everyone remembers how cheap he was in that boss fight, Shadow's fight is much less broken by comparison, and like I said was the time when everyone still liked him, which is why people aren't as skeptical anymore. None of the character fights from Heroes are included so it makes no sense to talk about them, if we're being general than they're still far better than Silver's fight as while they're haphazard, they're at least winnable and aren't that cheap by comparison.

And I wouldn't call Black Knight's the best though as I simply never got a handle on what to actually do during a spar sans flail and hope for the best. I can't beat the Lancelot rematch and probably never will.

It took me so long to beat that damn fight, but the sheer difficulty and skill behind it is why I consider them the best character fights.

[Legendary Emerald]

It took me so long to beat that damn fight, but the sheer difficulty and skill behind it is why I consider them the best character fights.

Really? I never noticed any skill whatsoever, other than jump attack like mad. Got the highest rank possible on my first try at the boss you're talking about.

There really hasn't been a good Sonic "rival" battle since CD, if you ask me. SA2 had terrible fights with every character, Heroes's team fights could end in five seconds even if you weren't trying, and 2006 was no use.

[Tomoki]

Really? I never noticed any skill whatsoever, other than jump attack like mad. Got the highest rank possible on my first try at the boss you're talking about.

There really hasn't been a good Sonic "rival" battle since CD, if you ask me. SA2 had terrible fights with every character, Heroes's team fights could end in five seconds even if you weren't trying, and 2006 was no use.

I think he was referring to "Lancelot Returns", an extra boss you unlock after beating the story.

You're probably thinking of the first Lancelot fight. One major difference in "Lancelot Returns" is that he attacks more frequently and uses attacks such as Chaos Spear, Chaos Punishment, and Chaos Blast now.

Edited by Spider-Man Noir, 06 October 2011 - 10:23 PM.

[Nepenthe]

But are the Heroes battles being remade? No, Silver's is, and almost everyone remembers how cheap he was in that boss fight, Shadow's fight is much less broken by comparison, and like I said was the time when everyone still liked him, which is why people aren't as skeptical anymore. None of the character fights from Heroes are included so it makes no sense to talk about them, if we're being general than they're still far better than Silver's fight as while they're haphazard, they're at least winnable and aren't that cheap by comparison.

There's no reason to limit this particular point to what's actually returning in Generations as I'm talking specifically about your reasoning and how fallacious it really is when applied to other equivalent situations, that reasoning being that a character deserves criticism based upon his boss appearances.

Even if I were to limit my point to what's returning in Gens, I could still just as easily point out the contradiction of Crisis City receiving praise for returning despite it also being an inherently cheap experience due to its design and collision detection issues. So again, it should stand to reason that if you're fine with Crisis City being completely redone despite its horrible debut, you should logically be fine with the Silver boss being completely redone despite its horrible debut. :|

Also, Legendary Emerald gets it.

[Legendary Emerald]

I think he was referring to "Lancelot Returns", an extra boss you unlock after beating the story.

You're probably thinking of the first Lancelot fight.

Nope. The second fight. Trust me, I did every mission except for two or three in the whole game. The swordfights were absolutely broken, and you could cheese your way through them easily if you waggled enough.

[Dantemustdie00]

Me thinks ya'll jumping to conclusion too fast on Perfect Chaos, before you even see what it could do. Appearance don't matter when your hit by a Hydro Pump powerful enough to tear through several skyscapers with ease..

[Azure Yakuzu]

Really? I never noticed any skill whatsoever, other than jump attack like mad. Got the highest rank possible on my first try at the boss you're talking about.

There really hasn't been a good Sonic "rival" battle since CD, if you ask me. SA2 had terrible fights with every character, Heroes's team fights could end in five seconds even if you weren't trying, and 2006 was no use.

Lancelot Returns dude, I know you didn't beat that on your first try, and if you did you are a god.


As for the latter, I will agree that character fights are mostly shit, but I really can't say Sa2's are bad, at least the final Sonic/Shadow fight as fighting that for the first time was somewhat difficult.

There's no reason to limit this particular point to what's actually returning in Generations as I'm talking specifically about your reasoning and how fallacious it really is when applied to other equivalent situations, that reasoning being that a character deserves criticism based upon his boss appearances.

There's also the fact that it was his debut game, and said circumstances behind said boss fight. Its different with Silver because he was hyped to hell and back unlike the other characters and when you finally got to him....yeah. I'm not saying Silver should be hated purely because of his boss fight, but its undoubtedly everyone's most bitter memory of him which is why people are so damn bitchy when they found out he's coming back.

Even if I were to limit my point to what's returning in Gens, I could still just as easily point out the contradiction of Crisis City receiving praise for returning despite it also being an inherently cheap experience due to its design and collision detection issues. So again, it should stand to reason that if you're fine with Crisis City being completely redone despite its horrible debut, you should logically be fine with the Silver boss being completely redone despite its horrible debut. :|

Crisis City wasn't a character, and its arguably one of the better stages in 06.

[Legendary Emerald]

Lancelot Returns dude, I know you didn't beat that on your first try, and if you did you are a god.


As for the latter, I will agree that character fights are mostly shit, but I really can't say Sa2's are bad, at least the final Sonic/Shadow fight as fighting that for the first time was somewhat difficult.

Lancelot Returns was not difficult for me at all. I never bothered defending much in the fights, and just jump attacked the hell out of everything. I didn't even know you could slow down time in the Rival battles until just now, watching that video that was posted. It took no skill, and though I have beaten the vast majority of Sonic game made with minimal difficulty, that certainly doesn't make me any sort of god, especially considering the games are so damn easy.

If you want to call me a god, you'll first have to see my all A-rank playthroughs of the Megaman Zero series.