Why is Sonic considered a bad Franchise?

[Blue Blood]

But there's no such thing really as "objectivity", because all debates really are are people arguing which one of their opinions is more sound. Which isn't a bad thing. You can only apply objectively when you're dealing with facts.

Good thing I am dealing with facts then.

Opinion: Sonic games suck.

Fact: The majority of people that hold an opinion about Sonic games think that they aren't very good.

EDIT: Ahahahahaha! Cap'n Harlock made the same post!

Edited May 7, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Chaos Warp]

There is, in fact, such a thing as objectivity.

 

"Sonic Unleashed sucks"- not objective.

 

"Sonic Unleashed was not well-received by the majority of notable critics"- objective and comprovable if needed.

Well yeah the critic thing is a fact.

 

"half a game of suckage eclipses what good there might be", is not objective. Because not everyone thinks that. 

Edited May 7, 2013 by Generations (Chaos Warp)

[Blue Blood]

Well yeah the critic thing is a fact.

 

"half a game of suckage eclipses what good there might be" not objective.

No, but that's just explaining the opinion.

[Semi-colon e]

Come to think of it, we needed 06. There was a steady stream of disappointments before and even some after, but sometimes you have to hit rock bottom for it to really hit home. We're in a better place now, and while it's not great, it was never going to be solved in one game or even three. The scars are just too great.

 

Perhaps it is depressing to realise that half the games suck. Perhaps it is depressing to realise that Sonic isn't and probably never will reach his super glory days of 2 and 3&K again. But there's light. 

 

Except for Dimps's games. Fuck you Dimps. They've been getting worse and worse lately. But these are comparatively minorly viewed so it's not so crippling, though it's still staining the reputation. If Dimps's games improve again or they get someone else who makes higher quality games in tandem with the clawing back Sonic Team is doing, then the reputation might increase that tiny bit faster.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Chaos Warp]

All you did was list a bunch of games and say that you think they're good.

You're free to like them, sure, but you have to be pretty ignorant to not admit that a lot of choices Sega and Sonic Team have made were questionable.

That's an opinion. What you consider a "questionable design choice" someone else might consider a good one. This isn't a reviewer fact here or anything.

[Splash the Otter]

Blue Blood pretty much hit the nail on the head. To throw a visual out, here is (roughly, so don't quibble over exact numbers) how I feel the series has gone:

 

Granted this is only my own opinion and some (most?) of you like the Modern games a lot more than I do, but even if you raised it a few points this is not the kind of graph that a "good" series should get. Even if you think the Modern games are great there's still a big huge pit of suck in the middle of it, and if I had tracked this by date rather than by game that pit would be even wider.

Wait, how is Generations a step down from Colors? Yes, it was too short and had a lackluster story, but the gameplay was some of the best I've seen in a while! If anything, the series has managed to reach at least SA2-level quality by now. I'd say things are looking, if not exactly "up", then in a general upward direction for Sonic.

Edited May 7, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Diogenes]

At least they don't treasure hunt. They still go forward towards the goal, which is essentially Sonic at the very, very core.

No that's what platformers are (sometimes); Sonic is more specific than that. By this logic the werehog is also Sonic gameplay, as his objective is to get to the goal ring.

Also the Chaotix often treasure hunted. Without a radar.

And when you're playing, why would you use Fly and Power for anything other then their purpose (Power for fighting enemies quickly, flight for flying places).

That's kind of the problem, that I can't use them for what a Sonic game is supposed to be about. Instead they're used for un-Sonic obstacles (like hordes of high-HP enemies).

Wait, how is Generations a step down from Colors? Yes, it was too short and had a lackluster story, but the gameplay was some of the best I've seen in a while!

The Modern gameplay is Unleashed Day's gameplay with an insignificant amount of polish and without the understanding that it is built solely to go fast, so they stuck in a bunch of weak platforming sections to pretend that it offers more than it does.

Also Classic Sonic is miles worse than the werehog.

[Soniman]

It is a graph based on opinion based on general fact of how the game was recieved, if that was he case I'm sure Gens would either be higher than Colors or slightly lower (based on review scores), either way it was sure as hell not going to be lower than Unleashed.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Soniman

[smogfog]

Blue Blood pretty much hit the nail on the head. To throw a visual out, here is (roughly, so don't quibble over exact numbers) how I feel the series has gone:

 

Granted this is only my own opinion and some (most?) of you like the Modern games a lot more than I do, but even if you raised it a few points this is not the kind of graph that a "good" series should get. Even if you think the Modern games are great there's still a big huge pit of suck in the middle of it, and if I had tracked this by date rather than by game that pit would be even wider.

Oh, lol, dude, I have a similar chart, from a russian POV (it's not mine). It was in somebody's signature, so I have no better version.

Intense green: Chic games (more than 9/10)

Mild green: Good games (around 7-8/10)

Yellow: Mediocre games (around 4-6/10)

"but there's no 6/10 games"

Red: Bad games (2-3/10)

"no disgusting (below 2) games here"

Edited May 7, 2013 by crystallize

[Splash the Otter]

The Modern gameplay is Unleashed Day's gameplay with an insignificant amount of polish and without the understanding that it is built solely to go fast, so they stuck in a bunch of weak platforming sections to pretend that it offers more than it does.

Also Classic Sonic is miles worse than the werehog.

What's wrong with the Classic gameplay? I didn't have any problems with it.

[Diogenes]

What's wrong with the Classic gameplay?

[Kuzu]

Since Blue Blood already covered it, I'll just put this out there:

 

 

To the general public, Sonic hasn't had a great game since the classic days, which were over 15 years ago. Every game Post-1994 has some noticeable flaws that kept it from being received better, and Sonic Team just got progressively worse, and worse till it just tanked with 06. It wasn't like the public suddenly turned on Sonic, Sonic just had a long string of games that ranged from mediocre to outright trash. And when it looks like the series will finally get back on its feet with Unleashed, it goes and throws the Werehog into the equation effectively neutering any chance the series had for redemption. Colors & Generations are good, but that's just it, they're merely passable and its going to take more than two passable games for the series to be considered anything remotely good and even then, Sonic Team have to make up for 10 years of mediocrity.

 

 

I kinda wish people would stop acting like the reviewers are being stupid and pretend that the games haven't had any problems at all, yes some things are exaggerated but when you've had a streak as bad as Sonic's for ten years, people are going to be hard on you as a result. Its not just the public, Sonic is also a big factor here and the fact is: regardless of whether you liked them or not, Sonic hasn't had a great game for years.

[Soniman]

How is it really a fact when a good number of people out side the fanbase said that Colors and Gens are good and yes, even great games to some extent? At the very least, they extend beyond merely passable if we're going off public reception.

[azoo]

Lets just say there was a time where the series took itself way too seriously but didn't care at all how they did it. Now the series deeply cares about how they tote themselves but they don't take anything seriously enough. :v 

 

Sonic's mostly considered a bad franchise because the series has reinvented the wheel so much that no one really knows what the deal is with the series. What the hell is a Sonic? Blue hedgehogs gotta fast Dr. Robotnik rings? With all the millions of alternate universes that the comics, TV shows, spinoffs, etc made, there's very little to call in common with each other than those very things. Its why nothing about the franchise can really be taken seriously, way more than "oh the games were bad for a while but now they're not" (although that's a huge reason too).

 

And honestly, because of how vague and oversaturated the series is with these alternate universes, its why thats all people expect from Sonic games. Oh, he goes fast, all about the speed! Collect the rings and beat up Eggman, who needs friends? Who needs storyline? This is the real Sonic, all the way back to the Genesis days... People actually believe this because in the world of Sonic, consistency is almost imaginary. :v

 

And like I said before, it doesn't help that when the series started getting realized for its own REAL canon (the games), that's when the games started going to shit, as well as the overall integrity of the franchise. So whatever the series had going for it from Sonic 1 - SA2 was pretty much considered null and/or crap since Heroes, Shadow and 06 were trash. Hence no need for stupid things like story, mythos and etc in the games! Who needs that?

 

tl;dr the Sonic series is a mess. It has so much potential but its pretty much screwed itself over in many aspects. At least from here on out the only way they can go is up. :v

 

I'm not even gonna bring up the fanbase though, thats like, a completely different spectrum of existence otherwise completely non-associative with the series man thats like the bad juju you don't touch

Edited May 7, 2013 by Azookara

[Splash the Otter]

What, the decreased momentum? Oh sure, that completely destroys his gameplay! Seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous nitpicks I've ever heard. You'll have to try harder if you want to convince me that Classic Sonic is, as you put it, "miles worse than the Werehog".

[Spin Attaxx]

It's meant to be an accurate replica of 90's Sonic gameplay. Because momentum was such an important asset to the games back then (there was no boost, speed boosters were only in a handful of levels and running strait and spindashing would only get you so fast, so rolling down loops and slopes was how you achieved rocket speed), decreasing it doesn't make it accurate.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Diogenes]

What, the decreased momentum? Oh sure, that completely destroys his gameplay!

Yes, it does. It renders the unique mechanics of the gameplay irrelevant, leaving it little more than a generic slippery platformer with the occasional dash pad and loop. It's Megaman without boss weapons, Portal without the portal gun.

Compared to the werehog, which is actually coherently designed even if it doesn't belong...I'll take the gameplay that actually works.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

What, the decreased momentum? Oh sure, that completely destroys his gameplay! Seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous nitpicks I've ever heard. You'll have to try harder if you want to convince me that Classic Sonic is, as you put it, "miles worse than the Werehog".

Um...playing Devil's Advocate (I think, fix it if I'm wrong), but when you try to emulate the most beloved of Sonic gameplay styles and still manage to come short of total success, then that could be considered a form of failure.

Edited May 7, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[Diogenes]

Um...playing Devil's Advocate (I think, fix it if I'm wrong), but when you try to emulate the most beloved of Sonic gameplay styles and still manage to come short of total success, then that could be considered a form of failure.

It's not just "short of total success", it's sub-amateur.

[Kuzu]

How is it really a fact when a good number of people out side the fanbase said that Colors and Gens are good and yes, even great games to some extent? At the very least, they extend beyond merely passable if we're going off public reception.

 

True, but Nepenthe pointed this out in another topic; Colors is praised less for how good it is, and more on what it didn't do. Every reviewer and average person mostly praise Colors for "doing Unleashed right" or "being the first game that isn't bad" rather than talking about the game itself. Basically, if the previous games didn't suck, Colors wouldn't have gotten nowhere near as much praise. And this is basically proven by how its essentially been forgotten despite being the so called "First decent Sonic game".

 

Generations is basically a nostalgia trip, its entire marketing is hinged on making people remember the days when Sonic was good. Without that nostalgia, you're left with just an incredibly short and unremarkable game that just happens to be slightly better than the last two.

 

 

Basically, Sonic will only start getting recognition when Sonic Team actually do something great as opposed to something that's merely passable. Colors & Generations, while good games in their own right, didn't really push the bar for the series that far which is why most people find them underwhelming or forgettable.

[Nepenthe]

As a general note, I don't think the Adventure series, and perhaps Heroes, truly belong to some era of trash games. They merely aged, a term which naturally implies they were well-received at the time, and they were. The reviews, their popularity, and their sales basically confirm this; it wasn't faked in some attempt to make the games seem better than they were. Hindsight may be 20/20, but I don't think it takes away from the games' popularity and quality at the time it actually mattered the most.

[t0ms0nic]

What, the decreased momentum? Oh sure, that completely destroys his gameplay! Seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous nitpicks I've ever heard. You'll have to try harder if you want to convince me that Classic Sonic is, as you put it, "miles worse than the Werehog".

 

You have to remember that after Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which did a variety of things with expanding the levels, rolling and general speed mechanics, stage gimmicks, elemental shields, etc... the Classic gameplay in Generations is a step back from that. It devolved back into the likes of Sonic 1, but without the core rolling mechanic that was one of the crowning features of Sonic's gameplay.

 

While I'm personally of the opinion that Classic's gameplay is more fun by taking more cues from Sonic 1's design theories and even without the rolling mechanic, as well as how the Modern gameplay is my absolute favourite thing to play videogames for, I can acknowledge both gameplay styles are much less technically and fundamentally impressive after people were waiting years for a true successor to the Classic formula, either in 2D or 3D. Sonic 1 MD/G & GG/MS and Generations are my go-to games for the Classic gameplay, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the technical pinnacle of the series and nothing has come close to replicating that.

 

Both 2D and 3D games following are practically garbage for never once trying to tap into the great potential of Sonic 3 & Knuckles' design theories. Doesn't stop me, everyone here, nor everyone else from having varied opinions on those games, but it's a stone cold fact that the series hasn't evolved... and likely never will following Generations trying to recreate the pinnacle of the Classic formula and failing to do so, as well as not adapting Modern's gameplay to follow the same principles. I'm glad it didn't, but that's not corresponding to the facts.

[Kuzu]

As a general note, I don't think the Adventure series, and perhaps Heroes, truly belong to some era of trash games. They merely aged, a term which naturally implies they were well-received at the time, and they were. The reviews, their popularity, and their sales basically confirm this; it wasn't faked in some attempt to make the games seem better than they were. Hindsight may be 20/20, but I don't think it takes away from the games' popularity and quality at the time it actually mattered the most.

 

The Adventure games are debatable, but Heroes is generally considered when the series started its downward spiral; it was hyped in the PR, but upon release I mostly remember mixed reactions.

[Nepenthe]

I remember mixed to good reactions from critics and the public, and it's further compounded by the fact that its sales numbers are comparatively astronomical. I wouldn't call it the definite demarcation line; that honor belongs to ShtH.

[Kuzu]

Heroes was also the first game to go multiplatform, so that might have contributed to its overall praise and sales. Heroes wasn't the game that everyone considered shit, but it was the game when everyone started question just what the hell Sonic team were doing.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu