Listening....To the fans?

[Gaming Misfit]

(This topic is about just in general, not Generations.)

I've noticed that ever since after Unleashed we've really been listened to and taken to heart. Now of course since only a few Sonic games have been released since that point in time, there isn't but so much Sega/ST has done to fulfill Sonic fan's wants for the games. Now with that said I still think they've accomplished alot lately with their latest games. If you don't agree with the idea of that I offer you to take a look at some examples of it and disagree/agree and post your opinions on it.

Sonic Unleashed: Why am I posting Unleashed? Well Unleashed didn't really listen to the fans, but alot of what I'm about to talk about link to this. So I feel the need to explain some things.

The day time stages: The fans loved these (the majority of the fans that is) and wanted to see the Unleashed style gameplay continue to be a part of the Sonic 3D games.

Sonic 4: Episode 1: Okay, people. Let's clear something up. Did I LIKE Sonic 4? No. Absolutely not. The phsyics were terrible and it did not in any way deserve to be called Sonic 4. I will never accept this game as Sonic 4 I think. I just can't. However, while we certainly didn't get what we wanted at least we knew we were getting a nod in the right direction. The basic concept of Sonic 4 was to pick up on the Genesis games. And although they failed horribly, at least we know someone is listening to us.

Sonic Colors: And HERE friends, is where Unleashed comes in. The return of the Unleashed gameplay showed that the fans had been listened to. This is sensational news. Not to mention so many other things that we saw in Colors. No more "gimmicky" plots and characters. Eggman is the main villain (Thank you so much), and cool new power ups for a bonus.

Sonic Generations: (This is based off of what we've seen so far) Sonic Generations seems to be continuing the trend of listening to the fans. And now, not only THAT, but they're taking it to heart. We see that one of the biggest demands from all fans of the Genesis games has been fulfilled. Chubby little C. Sonic has returned! This has got to be one of the biggest demands out there. Also, Unleashed gameplay returns again! We see old zones getting remade (which is a bit of a controversial topic, but alot of fans like this kind of stuff) and also we see that many characters which have been missed are returning (Metal Sonic).

So what do you guys think?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Gaming Misfit

[SuperClassic]

The Hedgehog engine is a graphics engine.

Oh, and I think that they listen to some, I mean, they're obviously not going to pull another Sonic 4 after the large amount of complaints.

[Gaming Misfit]

The Hedgehog engine is a graphics engine.

Oh, and I think that they listen to some, I mean, they're obviously not going to pull another Sonic 4 after the large amount of complaints.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Gaming Misfit

[Diogenes]

They've definitely started paying more attention to our corner of the fanbase recently. How much that listening is benefiting them, and how well they're understanding what they're hearing, is kind of questionable, tho'.

[Tori Himemiya]

Honestly Sega should never listen to the fans. I've explained this before we, the fans, don't know what we want and it ends up being a giant mess that Sega chooses not to make their own game. Its their company not ours, so they ought to be making their games.

Again Shadow the Hedgehog was their first experiment and we all know where that went. And they're still insisting on doing it.

Honestly I rather be wowed by a Sega's creative genius rather than watching a bad fan fic unfold.

[Nitwit_Speed]

I thought they've been listening since Heroes. After SA2, didn't everyone want one gameplay style and a light story? After that they saw that it wasn't a good idea to have multiple playable characters or a light story. They complained, and Shadow happened. More complaints, and then SEGA gave us a balance while stubbornly giving us three playable characters and amigos (yeah, independence!). Because 06 was too flawed on a technical level to be judged as a game, from what i've heard (i've been around for all of 3 seconds in the fanbase) Secret Rings got so much praise just for being better than 06. It was the "MUST KEEP MOVING FORWARD", "we need classic gameplay!" (which translated 3D controls and mechanics on a 2D plane and boring, blocky level design in the sidescrolling portions <ificouldtherewouldbeatrollfacehere) and "no more friends! Only sonic!" that came together to be Sonic Unleashed. I salute the werehog for being a loophole allowing for a second gameplay style with only Sonic even if it was terrible. Sonic 4 couldn't been more fanservicy if it was released of the Genesis (despite it's apparent awfulness, although i can't judge having never played) and then Colors rolled by, with the plot writing directly aimed at people who could care less about/ think stories in Sonic games should be thrown into a fire pit and most of the game being in either 2D or sidestep mode to please those who feel sonic should have never gone 2D.

Half of this post is probably wrong, but i can assure you that Sonic games have been heavily influenced by the fans since Sonic Heroes, with influence as far back as Adventure and beyond in terms of direct fan interference. Wasn't Gamma done specifically in response to letters asking for shooting in Sonic games?

[Blacklightning]

Made by fan demand.

Fanservice is one thing, but it shouldn't get in the way of making a game objectively great - it should be decided whether fan ideas even fit with the theme of the game (or in this case, the theme of the franchise) and work from there. What bothers me about Sonic Team is that they make no real attempt to assess fan demand as useful or useless and just shove it into games anyway as if fanbase recognition alone will make it great in their eyes. This is one of the big reasons why Colours is held in such high regard - if any fan feedback ever had a role in its design decisions, it was based on legitimate, unbiased criticism and almost nothing more. Not "HERPADERP WE NEED MORE ALIENS IN SONIC GAMES" (and to be honest, after the ludicrously stupid backstory resolutions in ShTH and Riders:0G, I'll be amazed if anyone is asking as such). That said, in all honesty I'd much rather ST just shut out fan feedback entirely and work on making games again, but if they absolutely must they should at least be making some kind of attempt at analyzing the idea and what impact it could do to the series, lest we get more shallow, ill-thought bullshit like this.

[Kuzu]

Made by fan demand.

Fanservice is one thing, but it shouldn't get in the way of making a game objectively great - it should be decided whether fan ideas even fit with the theme of the game (or in this case, the theme of the franchise) and work from there. What bothers me about Sonic Team is that they make no real attempt to assess fan demand as useful or useless and just shove it into games anyway as if fanbase recognition alone will make it great in their eyes. This is one of the big reasons why Colours is held in such high regard - if any fan feedback ever had a role in its design decisions, it was based on legitimate, unbiased criticism and almost nothing more. Not "HERPADERP WE NEED MORE ALIENS IN SONIC GAMES" (and to be honest, after the ludicrously stupid backstory resolutions in ShTH and Riders:0G, I'll be amazed if anyone is asking as such). That said, in all honesty I'd much rather ST just shut out fan feedback entirely and work on making games again, but if they absolutely must they should at least be making some kind of attempt at analyzing the idea and what impact it could do to the series, lest we get more shallow, ill-thought bullshit like this.

To be fair, they intended for Shadow to have his own game from the get-go, so its less by fan demand, or more Sega milking the character for all he's worth.

You know listening to fans has probably made Sega worse off than if they didn't, think about it every game up until Adventure 2 were made with very small fan input, and more or less are the definitive Sonic games, after Sa2 however fan outcry became more and more loud to the point where Sega TRIED to listen to them, the result was Heroes a lighter and softer game that has the feel of the classics, and brought back everyone's favorite ball of angst Shadow, while it did good it was nowhere near as acclaimed as anything before it, and so on and so on until Unleashed came onto the picture.

[Blacklightning]

To be fair, they intended for Shadow to have his own game from the get-go, so its less by fan demand, or more Sega milking the character for all he's worth.

The character was milked because of fan demand, just like virtually every game since SA2 up to that point - were it for any other reason, we would never have seen him return anywhere near as early as Heroes. But that's a subject for another topic.

You know listening to fans has probably made Sega worse off than if they didn't, think about it every game up until Adventure 2 were made with very small fan input, and more or less are the definitive Sonic games, after Sa2 however fan outcry became more and more loud to the point where Sega TRIED to listen to them, the result was Heroes a lighter and softer game that has the feel of the classics, and brought back everyone's favorite ball of angst Shadow, while it did good it was nowhere near as acclaimed as anything before it, and so on and so on until Unleashed came onto the picture.

Another factor is that the fanbase, by and large, is completely self-contradictary. There is literally no single way to please the entirety of the fanbase at once, because catering to one sect just pisses another off, and trying to cater to both at once just makes people bitch that only half of the game is what they wanted it to be. This, too, is never really analyzed by Sonic Team - all they ever hear is "we want Sonic only", and they never think to take the time to wonder why, because if they did there's a pretty good chance they'd have realized by now that their bad tendency to make seperate characters encompass seperate genres was a bigger problem than the simple quantity of them ever was. That's just a sample really - I could go on and on about it but I'd be stuck here typing for hours. The point is, trying to appeal to us is a fruitless and wasteful endeavour, especially when the success of the game has essentially depended on it - they should be worrying about making a good game first and foremost, and if some people don't like the concept of it in spite of relatively few objective flaws, well, sucks to be them. Edited July 20, 2011 by Blacklightning

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In general, they really shouldn't listen to the fans and carry on with ideas according to what will actually carry the series to great heights like they should've done before ShTH. Nowadays, we're still very split. One man's treasure is either another man's garbage or his target practice, and we've been getting a helluva lot of it lately.

However, doing things on their own can come with risks as well. Seriously, take Unleashed for example. NO ONE asked for the werehog in that game. And what's more? From what I've heard (and you'll have to confirm this with Phos, as that's who I got this tidbit from), Sega of America AND Europe told the folks at Sega of Japan not to put it in the game knowing full well that there would be some serious backlash, and they did it anyway. They had reasons for putting it in, but they should've known better of the consequences.

So in this calculus of taking an idea and sinking or floating with it, there's a lot of variables that should be taken into consideration. And that's something both the fans and the developers should work on. Unfortunately, thanks to our fandom being the Broken Base that it is, that's damn near impossible to do compared to the developers.

[Thirsty Pocket]

They do listen, but they always listen in the wrongest ways possible.

"Sonic's friends are stealing the spotlight and taking up too much of the games. We need more focus on Sonic."

So they took this as "lets ban all of Sonic's friends from being playable for years. But im sure we still want the alternate gameplay styles to take up half the game. So...how about we keep it Sonic only... but transFORM him?

"We want the games to be more like the classics"

that means "Let's make Sonic 4. And since they love the classics, lets only use ideas from the classics... But let's keep boost pads in full force"

"The dark tone of the series is terrible. Tone it down a bit why don't they"

So they turned everyone into a clown in Sonic Unleashed, and dialed it up to 11 in Colors ( ...it's entertaining, sure, but I want a little more than what we got in Colors... )

[SonikkuJeneshisu89]

I think Sega have been listening to fan feedback but I also agree they should be careful as to what feedback they are reading, if its meaningful and useful feedback or constructive criticism I think it personally helps them improve the games or gameplay styles. Feedback that mostly consists of crying and whining for particular things such as CLASSICS AGAIN! or NO MORE FRIENDS! that's gonna mess them up a bit. It's true Sonic fans really don't know what they want and there's just to many broken groups of fans who like different particular things. Personally for me I absolutely love the Unleashed gameplay and am so happy to see it return in Colours and in Generations and hope it see it more defined and open in future installments. I also felt they balanced Unleashed's story out, it had dark serious moments but also a lot of funny and light hearted moments as well. I felt it had a nice in between of the two.

Sonic 4 was indeed a major failure and it was all created because of fan demand, Generations on the other hand I see a lot of time and love put into. It really looks and feels like Sega put in all they can in that game adding so many little details or cameos for everyone to enjoy. They made a nice balance between Modern and Classic style not only for gameplay style but in artistic style as well. Such as the realism of City Escape to the surrealism of Green Hill Zone. They listened to fan feedback for this game but it seems they utilized the good feedback for the most part. Colours was a very fun game, the only issues I had with it is to light of a story and to much 2D segments. I am more fond of the more 3D segments found in the Unleashed gameplay. But I do believe Sega are trying and putting a lot of heart into the recent games, and do feel they are listening to fans feedback which is a good thing its just they need to do it in moderation and consider what may be good and what may be bad for the Franchise.

[thedarkknight]

Thanks to these "fans", Shadow (favourite character) hasn't been in a canon console game since Sonic 06. SEGA, ignore the fans.

Edited July 20, 2011 by thedarkknight

[Diogenes]

Thanks to these "fans", Shadow (favourite character) hasn't been in a canon console game since Sonic 06. SEGA, ignore the fans.

But...you're a fan. Why should they listen to you?

[thedarkknight]

But...you're a fan. Why should they listen to you?

They shouldn't. I might think I know what's best for Sonic, but I don't because I have never made a Sonic game, so I'll say: leave it to people who have actually made a Sonic game.

[Milo]

I think Sega/Sonic Team should always listen to fans when it comes to feedback responce to / criticism of certain aspects of a Sonic game (those two certain aspects of reception from fans [and sometimes critics too] were used in making Unleashed, Sonic 4, and most importantly, Colors). Only in rare times should they ask fans for ideas for major aspects of a Sonic game.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Yeow95

[Gaming Misfit]

They shouldn't. I might think I know what's best for Sonic, but I don't because I have never made a Sonic game, so I'll say: leave it to people who have actually made a Sonic game.

There's a fine line difference between giving the fans what they want and going overboard and doing nothing but try to satisfy them.

[DC111]

Products of fans' ideas:

-Sonic Heroes

-Shadow's return

-Sonic-only gameplay

-Sonic Unleashed daytime gameplay

-Sonic Colors to an extent

-Sonic Generations

-Epic stories and light stories alike, at different points in time

Products of SEGA's ideas:

-The classics

-The Adventures

-Storybook series

-The Riders series

-Werehog

-Sonic 2006's execution

The respective lists are obviously much more expansive than that, but that's just an idea. The short version? SEGA are human, and fans are human. Seeing as how there have been successes, failures and in-betweens in each category, I don't think it's black and white whether the fans should be listened to or not. They should be their own foundation, not puppets to the fans... But at the same time, they should take fans' opinions into account, making judgments on what fan input has solid reasoning and would be justified, and what's just plain stupid.

Generations, thus far, seems like a really good example... There's lots of clamoring for Classic Sonic (obviously, since he's back for said game), right? And if that Facebook vote was anything to go by, Classic Sonic is at least three times as popular as Modern Sonic. If SEGA were to act based on fans' expressions, Classic Sonic would be the main version of Sonic again, and Modern would become a thing of the past. Classic Sonic wouldn't be merely a one-time thing for the blue blur's anniversary. He would be back for good.

But that would be a TERRIBLE idea, as wistful as some Classic fans probably feel at that notion, because you CAN'T go by popularity polls or fans' whining. Think about it: Why do we hear so much about Classic Sonic and how he's the better of the two and he should be back forever? Because it's something we DON'T HAVE. Why would (most) Modern fans have reason to whine? They don't, because we already HAVE Modern Sonic. We don't need to clamor for his return. But if the situation were reversed, it would be just as extreme. Modern fans would be whining for Modern Sonic's return and Classic fans would be whining about Modern fans' whining. If they only took Classic supporters into account, they'd be ignoring the other side of the fanbase that's just fine with Modern, the other side of the fanbase that loves the gameplay style and epic stories of the Adventures or the adrenaline-driven batshit insane speed of Unleashed or whatever else people like about Modern... They'd be ignoring the side of the fanbase that - for the most part - isn't very vocal because they don't NEED to be, because they already have what they want (Modern Sonic). As such, nothing expressed on the Internet accurately reflects what the fanbase wants as a whole. We only ever see one side of it: for instance, when Sonic's friends are in the picture, advocates of Sonic-only become more vocal. When it's Sonic-only, advocates of Sonic's friends become more vocal. The ball just continues to get tossed back and forth.

(...And inb4 'but Modern sucks,' Modern Sonic has had shining moments just like Classic. Regardless of your personal opinion, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Unleashed, and Sonic Colors were successful, widely-loved games and the first two are all but legendary.)

And the alternative: if SEGA ignored the fans and kept doing only what THEY wanted to do for Sonic, Classic Sonic probably wouldn't be returning at ALL for Generations, nor would all the nostalgic levels we love so much. Sonic would be moving onto other things. But that's not necessarily the best idea either, because no matter how successful the game would have been or how well it would have been made, there would still be that huge group of people dying to see Classic Sonic again. People have wanted Classic Sonic back for years, and nothing would have changed that, so now Generations can finally (hopefully) satisfy that desire that so many people have had for so long.

So instead of stubbornly clinging to Modern-only gameplay, and instead of turning the tables completely and returning to Sonic's classic roots, they gave us both. Because anything else would be setting the stage for disaster. And someone somewhere at SEGA probably knows that.

So should SEGA listen to the fans? Yes and no. They should do what they're doing with Generations - not compromising what THEY want for Sonic, but at the same time being reasonable and taking fan opinions into account.

TL;DR - just give Sonic one green eye and one black eye and call it a day.

Edited July 20, 2011 by DC111

[Sonic Yoda]

There's a fine line between giving the fans what they want and going overboard and doing nothing but trying to satisfy them.

[ChikaBoing]

Products of fans' ideas:

-Sonic Heroes

-Shadow's return

-Sonic-only gameplay

-Sonic Unleashed daytime gameplay

-Sonic Colors to an extent

-Sonic Generations

The Tag-Team gameplay from Heroes was not requested I think.

About Unleashed's gameplay, from the Blog:

Then, in 2005, I was approached and asked by the Producer Akinori Nishiyama “Would you like to produce the next Sonic?” And this is when the new chapter of Sonic began.

I started straight off by thinking of what is needed to make the real Sonic. And I found the answer pretty quickly - I actually already had my answers in my mind since I’d always been thinking about what the “ideal” Sonic was!

Which means that the Daytime-gameplay was came up with before Secret Rings and before they knew that Rush was such a success.

Agreed on everything else.

[DC111]

The Tag-Team gameplay from Heroes was not requested I think.

Touche. But the return of old characters like the Chaotix was something fans wanted, as were the classic-y level aesthetics if I'm not mistaken.

Which means that the Daytime-gameplay was came up with before Secret Rings and before they knew that Rush was such a success.

Agreed on everything else.

The sidescrolling portions of Unleashed didn't come from fans wanting that style of gameplay back on modern consoles?

[ChikaBoing]

Touche. But the return of old characters like the Chaotix was something fans wanted, as were the classic-y level aesthetics if I'm not mistaken.

The sidescrolling portions of Unleashed didn't come from fans wanting that style of gameplay back on modern consoles?

Yeah that's true. Sidescrolling came just partly from the Fans, I think. Especially since it's not like the old games in anyway, and the Idea from the beginning was a 2D/3D hybrid system.