94 replies to this topic

[Azure Yakuzu]

I have no problem with Eggman being taken more seriously as a villain, but him ACTING like a serious villain is completely out of the question, Eggman just isn't the type of guy who takes every situation seriously. He's hammy, over the top, and has the mindset of a child, these are traits that you can NEVER take from him as it would completely be going against the character's theme.

I do hope future games give a bit more sense of urgency when fighting him, as in give the feeling of "If you don't kick this guy's ass, everyone you know and love will be lost" Colors almost had it, but it kind fell flat because there was nothing really at stake, as Eggman's plan had already been ruined, so the final boss seemed kind of like an afterthought.

[Ice King]

I do hope future games give a bit more sense of urgency when fighting him, as in give the feeling of "If you don't kick this guy's ass, everyone you know and love will be lost"

I wouldn't go that far- Like I said, Eggman isn't out to kill, but to rule.

So it'd be more like "If you don't defeat him, the world is going to be turned into a really unenjoyable place to be ruled by one crazy egotist." I imagine Eggman's subjects would be alive and well, but under incredibly strict, robot-enforced law. Not the funnest place to be, but not doom, gloom, and total destruction either.

[Azure Yakuzu]

I wouldn't go that far- Like I said, Eggman isn't out to kill, but to rule.

So it'd be more like "If you don't defeat him, the world is going to be turned into a really unenjoyable place to be ruled by one crazy egotist." I imagine Eggman's subjects would be alive and well, but under incredibly strict, robot-enforced law. Not the funnest place to be, but not doom, gloom, and total destruction either.

You know what I mean, not mass murdering or anything, but the fact that if Eggman wins, he takes over and everyone will have to live their lives according to how he sees fit, and considering how egotistical Eggman is, I doubt it wouldn't be that far off from my example.And considering Sonic values freedom above anything else, that may as well be a fate worse than death.

[Dr. Crusher]

Despite overall being a tish soap opera, Archie-Eggman is one of my favourite incarnations of the guy.

If there was ever to be a combination of Unleashed/Colours Robotnik and Archie-Eggman, I would be a very happy person. Robotnik as he is so far is good enough though. Just keep his Sonic X incarnation as far away as possible. SatAM too, but mostly Sonic X.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Despite overall being a tish soap opera, Archie-Eggman is one of my favourite incarnations of the guy.

If there was ever to be a combination of Unleashed/Colours Robotnik and Archie-Eggman, I would be a very happy person. Robotnik as he is so far is good enough though. Just keep his Sonic X incarnation as far away as possible. SatAM too, but mostly Sonic X.

I do wish for a combination of the two to be perfectly honest. Eggman having something of a human side, but that doesn't stop him from doing the most despicable shit ever.

[Scheming Minor]

Listen, you gonna contribute with your opinions on this or not? If not, fuck off.

Awwww. At least buy me dinner before you use a mouth like that on someone.



What everyone is getting up in arms about is you trying to turn Eggman into something that he is not - a flanderization of a grand bastard - the epitome of what 90's media wanted to turn all villains into back in the day short of flinging them over the railing with a Wilhelm scream.

You want gritty Eggman? Eggman-Nega is within your territory since he is practically cold and calculating, downright stark raving mad and wouldn't hesitate to strike down a soul like a fist from an angry god. Hell, he almost wanted to destroy the planet taking Eggman with him.

Telling the fanbase that you essentially want a character to do the opposite of their nature right from the start, even right down to their prototype which ebbs and flows in the genes of their characterization seems out of place and hamfisted. Killing? Not Eggman's game unless he's threatened - this isn't the type of man that would ice a cop on the street because they are the bad guy and they have to follow cliched roles like that since it is written in the grand script. Eggman hardly even resorts to fisticuffs. This man doesn't want to destroy people, he wants everyone to be alive so they can worship him like a god which is quite telling from a psychological view and much more satisfying than something one-dimensional like GRRRRWWWARR Reagan SMASH!

The only place where that out of character stuff flies is in fanfictions and half-assed Newgrounds videos.

Robotnik can have his childish cake and steal forty of them too, which is how he is portrayed.

While people were killed in this series, remember that you are taking on a game franchise that is about a blue cartoon Kenny Baker in a fursuit hedgehog that runs wildly through checkered hills and neon factories to fight against an equally flamboyant obese scientist with a God complex. Even in its darker themes, the series didn't manage to stray far from this. Most of the time. Not saying that it is bad to want some of the deeper stuff, but you also have to know your range.

Look at it this way - what would you say if we took Sonic so far from his roots and made him kill things with guns to up his street cred? How about evaporating the very element that is core to his games and replace it with something that is considered symbolic for mainstream badassery instead, like a vehicle? Oh, and make him talk like a sailor spawn from Ozzy Osbourne's ass?



Nevermind, it's been done.

Remember, killing someone does not equate to mega bad ass rep unless that person is a sick teenager with psychopathic tendencies that wants to flaunt it to everyone so they can claim how it feels - in that case those deluded souls need to seek help.

Eggman with his flamboyant orotund outlook on life is quite a refreshing breath of air in the realm of villainy and it would take anyone with more brain cells in their head than a lobster to want some appreciative grey morale to pick apart and guess over. It makes the audience feel that their intelligence is appreciated and one so factual in a fandom that grew up aside the franchise - writers respect us so much to give us actual characterization outside of cardboard and it makes us appreciate that they want to put their effort and time into entertaining us building their pixelated stars up rather than slapping a sticker on it, dumping it into the shovelware bin and calling it a day (Like the effort and appreciation that goes into Team Fortress 2 characters for the fans as a good comparison.)

Adding and retaining a human element keeps the villain close to their audience - at one point they are charming enough to worm their way into your heart, then when the big drop comes you feel betrayed a bit inside. That's the most infamous part of Eggman's schtick that has always made him popular among fans and gaming nerd rings and always has been.

A pretty clever schtick.

Edited by Kintobor, 24 July 2011 - 02:26 AM.

[ChaosSupremeSonîc]

Okay, I see a few people using the old "Post Sonic 06 Eggman is a clown, and not a villain" argument. So let me have some fun by presenting you guys with this guy:


You want to talk about Eggman being a clown? THIS guy, Kefka Palazzo, pictured above, is an even bigger clown in both name, appearance, actions, and attitude.

Just fucking look at the guy. He doesn't look like anyone you would take seriously as an evil person, does he?

However, even though he may be a clown, he has a resume that makes Hitler look like a pushover. Actions include:
-Attacking towns to look for a specific group of people called Espers
-Draining the power of said Espers for himself
-Setting fire to a castle because its king was hiding someone he was looking for
-Overthrowing the emperor he was working under
-Poisoning a river to kill a local population
-Destroying the world
-And became a god!

That's just a few things I can bring up on what this "clown" has done, and I'm sure he's done others. Eggman may not be as evil as Kefka (nor would he want to be, I would assume), but Kefka serves as a key example of why you can't downplay a character's villainy because they don't act serious. So can anyone remind me why a clown can't be an evil villain, or do I need to pull out Joker from The Batman to shut people up even more?

I get on with my own analysis of Eggman after a while. I just wanted an excuse to use Kefka to silence this "Eggman isn't evil" nonsense.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic, 24 July 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[ThatGuyJay]

I never saw Eggman that evil in SA2 as I just thought the tone of the story was just more serious. He almost killed Sonic and threatened to kill Amy (I don't know why everyone bitching about Shadow having a gun, Eggman clearly did it first, in style as well ) I will give him credit, he did blow up a military base, which is the closest you will get to Eggman killing people. In Sonic Adventure he seemed pretty evil towards the end of Tails story but that's it. He didn't even do shit in Shadow and Heroes. In 06 all he did was kidnapped a princess more than Bowsers done in his life. In Unleashed he defeated Super Sonic, blew up a fucking planet, and then drops Sonic from space. That's more evil than anything he's ever done. The fuck he needs Shadow for when he can blow up a planet (Is that cannon in Unleashed stronger than the Ecliplse Cannon) And in Colors he took prisoner of ailens and basically reconstructed another planet. Plus he was actually the last boss (In the Wii version at least) and he didn't even used the Chaos Emeralds for this plan.

So basically, Eggmans always been evil, it's just in the more serious tone games (SA and SA2) he seems more evil. The goofiness adds personality to him but I will admit Colors kind of overkilled it and it's kind of overrated but it still works for Eggman. I rather have a villain who can be evil and be funny than someone just being evil. My whole point was in Sonic Adventure games he was more serious because the game itself was serious. Sonic was serious. Tails was serious. Knuckles was serious. Shadow is always serious. And Eggman would have to be serious to match the tone of the game. Seriousness=/=More evil.

[Xenos]

In my opinion, Eggman always seemed to me more goofy then serious. My first game being the Advanced games, followed by Sonic 2. His facial expressions when getting hit, such as looking towards the player with a frowny-face I always loved seeing. Followed by his ridiculous running animation in Sonic 2's death egg, while also being comically faster then Sonic somehow that escapes the mind of many fans to this day. I'm not saying Eggman shouldn't be a threat, but I'd prefer him as the type of villain with a goofy, comical output, with a maniacal and evil other side to him. So he can act as goofy with that round sexy body of his, while trying to shoot Sonic and friends with lasers of death!

That to me is an ideal Eggman, one that acts kiddy and goofy, but in actuality is quite evil.

[Gabe]

@Sonic Jam video.....well that confirms that the planet ISN'T Mobius, because there are OBVIOUSLY people on there. I like that "Felix the Cat" pose (classic) Sonic did there as well when he's like HEY LOOK IT'S ME SONIC! to the crowd. I wish there was like official 2D artwork of that pose!
Also proof that Robotnik can pretty much match Sonic's speeds in a Sonic suit and jet-powered trollerskates AND is able to roll into a ball and ram himself like a pinball into several objects, despite defying gravity and logic (like two OTHER "fakers" we know of! ).

Though it begs the question this if he's able to do this crap, then why does he need machines?

And gee, this most be one of the most easily-led poulation ever. Sonic is GOTY for doing a hell knows what amount of good things. But cause some traffic trouble and people are comparing him to scum.

Despite overall being a tish soap opera, Archie-Eggman is one of my favourite incarnations of the guy.

If there was ever to be a combination of Unleashed/Colours Robotnik and Archie-Eggman, I would be a very happy person. Robotnik as he is so far is good enough though. Just keep his Sonic X incarnation as far away as possible. SatAM too, but mostly Sonic X.

I cannot stress this enough.

Edited by Ananze, 24 July 2011 - 07:02 AM.

[Shawn7]

Just as long as he is the final boss again.

I don't care how Robotnic/Eggman behaves.

[Scar]

Because I don't like RPGs. I tend to lose interest midway.

Then you simply CANNOT comment on Mario stories vs Sonic stories. Fact of the matter is, Thousand Year Door, had a better story than any Sonic game combined. If you haven't played Thousand Year Door, then you can't disagree either.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand.

Eggman from Unleashed and beyond is the best he's ever been. He's probably achieved more than any iteration of Eggman has ever hoped to acheive. I mean he defeated Super Sonic. Let me say that again. He defeated Super Sonic. He then successfully blew up the whole planet into pieces and he actually fucking built Eggmanland..

In SA1 and SA2, he just blew out a lot of hot air, about wanting to create Eggmanland, or the Eggman empire, but he never succeeded. He went and actually built a country in Unleashed. Name after himself no less.

Him being goofy and a little bit of a joke, is all apart of his character. He's just an insane egotistic maniac, who wants everybody to worship him. Whether he does that through fear, by splitting the whole planet (Unleashed), or if he does it by literally controlling everyone's mind using a giant-ass mind-control laser (Colours). Evil is a moral alignment, not a personality trait. You can be evil and goofy. You can be good and a lose cannon.

Besides, being purely evil with no flaws or personality, would make you no better than Iblis; a mindless fire-monster.

[Amomynous]

Eggman wasn't actually that sucky in the first half of Sonic X, it was the second half that did it, pushing Eggman out the way to make way for the meterex, though my Memory might not serve me that well since I havn't seen Sonic X in a long time

Edited by Mysterics, 24 July 2011 - 02:11 PM.

[Ice King]

Eggman wasn't actually that sucky in the first half of Sonic X, it was the second half that did it, pushing Eggman out the way to make way for the meterex, though my Memory might not serve me that well since I havn't seen Sonic X in a long time

I disagree.

In the Metarax saga, Eggman kicked their asses on a regular basis. Eggman's brilliance and tactical planning was really highlighted, especially when he totally sees a Metarax trap a mile off, but plays into the hands of their human supporters anyway, before blasting their base with a giant robot and laughing as he escapes.

Even the usually non-threatening Decoe, Bocoe, and Bokkun beat the crap out of Black Narcissus, one of the Metarax generals, after he goes a step too far actually causes physical harm to Chris and Cosmo, violating Eggman's moral code.

Eggman even heroically sacrifices his ship, the Egg Crimson, by disguising it as the Blue Typhoon and goes on a dangerous decoy mission so Sonic can escape- His ship is shot down, and Eggman is able to calmly walk away from an explosive shipwreck with little more than a few scrapes and an injured arm. Is he deterred in the slightest? No, Eggman goes out to drink, calm as ever, after inexplicably surviving.

You wanna talk about some mental fortitude? Look no further than the final battle- See, Cosmo has the Metarax bound with her magical plant powers, but if Tails shoots them she's going down with them. Tails can't do it, but Eggman- a voice of reason and wise beyond his years- gently sympathizes with Tails, explaining that he knows that it's difficult to lose a loved one, but that everyone will die (including Cosmo) if the Metarax aren't stopped, as well as the fact that Cosmo has already decided to sacrifice herself. It's a difficult situation, but Eggman's calm, almost fatherly advice is just what Tails needs in this scene.

Eggman may have not been the main antagonist of the Metarax saga, but he was far from useless or weak. Rather, this saga highlighted just how awesome he could be.

[Dr. Crusher]

Eggman wasn't actually that sucky in the first half of Sonic X, it was the second half that did it, pushing Eggman out the way to make way for the meterex, though my Memory might not serve me that well since I havn't seen Sonic X in a long time

I guess I can agree with this. I've said before that the first part of Sonic X - from the beginning to the Super Sonic/Eggsterminator fight - wasn't that bad. It's when the Adventure/Battle adaptations entered the picture that increased the irritation (though I still sort of liked the unique non-adaptation episodes within). And the Metarex Saga? Worst part in the whole series if you ask me.

By the end, Sonic X Robotnik was one of those Team Rocket-esque villains who feels more like a victim that Sonic and Co. are tirelessly bullying. I can't respect that.

[Eastwood]

Except he really hasn't. Heroes and Shadow didn't feature him much because he wasn't the main antagonist. Next Gen was the first main game in five years to have him establish as a main character, and he was the menacing, brooding son of a bitch from Adventure 2, except without the morale issue.

If anything, Unleashed and Colors Wii developed his character further than anything we've seen from him in a long time in the series, and he's the best written by far already. He's cooky, cocky, arrogant, hilarious, and evil. From enslaving the Wisps to blowing up the Earth in pieces to creating the most diabolical, insane, stupendous, most pissing-off-gamers-worldwide amusement park: Eggmanland. His communication with Orbot and Cubot are tremendous, and his black humor from the Colors Wii announcements are absolutely hilarious.

Well for me he has, and even though I like for him to be goofy at times I dont want it to reach the point where he cant be taken seriously.

[Pawn]

I don't see that Eggman has changed a lot (excluding '06), but he has acted more goofy of late. Other than maybe toning that down, what I would like is for him to take a more active role again. He seems to just sit around and watch things unfold, only occasionally challenging you to fight him. I liked the way we saw his plots unfold back in the Adventures I suppose. However I want him to be the final boss more often, and for his final machines to be more impressive. I did not find Colours' Nega-Wisp thing all that awe-inspiring. I loved the Death Egg, Doomsday Zone and Egg Viper but nothing since has really grabbed me.

I do not agree that we should see him kill people directly. It's not that I think he has empathy for people, so much that he doesn't consider them an active threat. After all GUN meant little to him in SA2. I think it's enough for it to be implied that the populous suffers as a by-product of his madness ala Unleashed.

Mainly I just want to see him show his cunning a bit more. In Sonic Adventure, for the most part, he tricked the heroes into supplying him with the Chaos Emeralds or at least kept tabs on them. It really felt that he was in control a lot of the time.

Apologies if this post is a bit disjointed. Bit hungover :[.

Edited by Lungo, 24 July 2011 - 03:18 PM.

[Discoid]

Am I the only one who absolutely hated the Egg Viper? I mean... sure, it looked cool and had some cool attacks, but the method of attacking it was the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a Sonic game. Take the Egg Hornet for example, he has that move where he lunges into the floor and makes himself vulnerable. That's just as stupid as what the Egg Viper did, isn't it? ... Not really. He had already shot some missiles at Sonic and he was dodging them with ease. Eggman had a choice between exhausting his supply completely and probably not hitting Sonic even once, or taking a risk and using an attack that'll leave him vulnerable. His decision was a logical one. The Egg Viper showed that it could destroy the entire row of platforms you were standing on. Do that, and Sonic dies. Instead, what does Eggman decide to do? "Can you make it over here, Sonic?" ... NO. NO NO NO NO NO. God. That's just so freaking stupid.

[Azure Yakuzu]

Am I the only one who absolutely hated the Egg Viper? I mean... sure, it looked cool and had some cool attacks, but the method of attacking it was the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a Sonic game. Take the Egg Hornet for example, he has that move where he lunges into the floor and makes himself vulnerable. That's just as stupid as what the Egg Viper did, isn't it? ... Not really. He had already shot some missiles at Sonic and he was dodging them with ease. Eggman had a choice between exhausting his supply completely and probably not hitting Sonic even once, or taking a risk and using an attack that'll leave him vulnerable. His decision was a logical one. The Egg Viper showed that it could destroy the entire row of platforms you were standing on. Do that, and Sonic dies. Instead, what does Eggman decide to do? "Can you make it over here, Sonic?" ... NO. NO NO NO NO NO. God. That's just so freaking stupid.

Well if that didn't do it, it'd be damn near unbeatable.

[thedarkknight]

I know this is off-topic, but doesn't this man look like Eggman in Sonic 06 without the moustache?