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QuantumEdge reacted to a reply to a status update:
okay guys, I have a groundbreaking idea for my new Youtube channel. I've decided I'm
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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096
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SupahBerry reacted to a reply to a status update:
Beat the Nightmare before Christmas world. These bosses aren't that good at all huh?
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Beat the Nightmare before Christmas world. These bosses aren't that good at all huh?
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They’re a lot better in 2. But the hollow bastion bosses and secret ones are pretty okay
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
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I think my SSMB-versary was a couple days ago . . . . Time flies so much that every d
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
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Spiderverse was really awesome, really glad I saw it in 3D too, all the comic style effects really popped.
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
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Sonic Under New Management Part 2: Hedgehog Boogaloo? (Reports of Sega of Japan studio restructure/new IP development)
Ruomarta replied to Gabriel's topic in Upcoming Sonic Games
^This. Let me also add that this entire proclamation means nothing if you don't have anything to show for it. As I always say: "Words without action is worthless." -
What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Almar replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
I say a big difference between Mario and Sonic that helps let the plumber get away with his cast size is that Mario ended up with a more solid world than Sonic does. More worldbuilding if you will. For example, koopas are treated as one species with plenty of members in the background as civilians instead of just serving Bower or Peach. Same goes for other Mario species. The closest Sonic has to a species as characterized from its diversity is the echidnas. Enough other anthro characters in a Sonic game are treated as one-of-a-kind or at most have another who's connected to them (like Sonic with Amy as his fangirl and Shadow as his doppelganger, don't know what's up with Silver). Miyamoto might not demand plot but he has let 2nd parties do a bit with the characters and world while still expecting Mario to keep to a solid direction. Sonic Team does the opposite (makes demands on how outsiders handle the world/characters yet refuse to hold them to a solid direction). Ian Flynn even talked about how his writing has been hamstrung by Sonic Team's rules on how to handle the characters (like how Cream can't take part in fighting anymore). As odd as might be to say this, I wonder if Sonic's cast size would have worked out better if the games bothered to have more normie animal NPCs before Forces. -
Sonic Under New Management Part 2: Hedgehog Boogaloo? (Reports of Sega of Japan studio restructure/new IP development)
Mania Pipe replied to Gabriel's topic in Upcoming Sonic Games
I don't know, honestly it seems a bit too early to say if this will have any huge impact to the Sonic franchise. I'm hoping that things do change. It being for better or for worse though... that's entirely up to the company and developers themselves. -
Sonic Under New Management Part 2: Hedgehog Boogaloo? (Reports of Sega of Japan studio restructure/new IP development)
Dr. Detective Mike replied to Gabriel's topic in Upcoming Sonic Games
Is Sega of Japan going to have any significant involvement in the Sonic series going forward still? If so, I feel like that... might change a few things. Maybe. Not enough to be largely significant, admittedly. I dunno. I guess I just really want things to change. -
What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Dr. Detective Mike replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
Absolutely. Some characters can hang just fine with long-term appearances like Sonic, Tails, Amy, the Chaotix, Rouge, Eggman, Metal Sonic, and the like. They don't really require too many hoops to jump through to include them in a plot aside from "We need someone to steal this thing" or "we need someone smart to figure out this thing". However, others like Shadow, Blaze, and Silver have very significant appearances that ended in ways that didn't seem too flexible for multiple appearances. The worst part about that is that they ended up being some of the more popular ones too. Shadow fucking died. Blaze's situation was set-up so that it would be incredibly hard, nay almost impossible, for Sonic and Tails to easily see her, and Silver is from a ruined future that no longer existed when time was reset. It's actually the most baffling in Silver's case because, as I've stated before, he was designed specifically to be used again. They WANTED him to be popular and they knew he was going to be sticking around because he was already slated to appear in 3 Sonic games before Sonic 06 even came out. Trailers for Sonic Rivals and news that he'd be a playable character in Sonic and the Secret Rings' party mode were circulating at the same time trailers for Sonic 06 were out. It's actually kind of incredible how dumb they were when it came to Silver. Like almost everything they did in the 2005-2007 era for Sonic was some of the most drooling, brain-dead, moronic, eye-bleedingly stupid things they could do but the Silver situation still fascinates me. They wanted another popular hedgehog character like Shadow and they wanted him to stick around so they thought that their best bet was to have him come packaged with a story that reset itself and became obsolete at the end of his debut game. Have his actual, real introduction be a much less sought after title exclusive to the PSP. Have him fuck up the backstory of another popular character, Blaze, just so he could score some instant brownie points due to knowing someone who's also popular, made him a hedgehog (because those are the most popular animal in the series), and ripped off the Trunks story from DBZ but left out the parts that kept the time travel BS from fucking up the plot. They fucked Silver's introduction so hard, it's unbelievable he's still around. That I disagree with. Focusing on Sonic, The Avatar, and Classic Sonic doesn't at all make it hard to juggle the supporting characters. In fact, because you have three playable characters it's actually far easier. You have a decent range of three separate points of view to follow for one. Different connections between different characters could easily be made with that. Team Dark seemed like it had something going but that fizzled out and wasn't capialized on at all. Tails could have easily replaced Classic Sonic and had his own self-discovery story dealing with the fallout of losing Sonic. The Chaotix are detectives and had there been better use concerning any number of Eggman plans and strategies, missions including them and the hardships they could have been through, with the aid of whatever character you're playing serving as the bridge to witness it, could have easily been included into the mix. Basically, you just need to completely re-work the story the way it is now into something that can actually support the large cast. Plenty of games, anime, books, and movies have managed it, sometimes through the lens of just ONE character you're following, much less three. To this day I remain shocked that Marvel managed to do it so well with Infinity War. Games are obviously different, of course, but I really don't think it would have been that hard to do. I brainstorm this stuff all the time, because of how frustrating it is knowing what they could have done with something like Forces and the cast it had. Unleashed could have done it as well, if they felt like it. Though the approach I would have used would be much different than the one in Forces. I'd have taken that chance to have them go through more relaxed and simple subplots with each area they visited. Chun-nan did that a bit with the bird that turned evil due to Dark Gaia's influence. They don't really do anything like that with the other countries though. It's a bit of a shame. Sometimes little side-stories where you just get to have some fun with the characters can do a lot as well. Sometimes even more than an intense war setting. But yeah, if the question is "How are they supposed to do it" then that's not an issue for me. I think there's plenty of ways to do it. The issue is that they're not talented enough or don't care enough to try so they just shove them all in there without attempting anything. I don't know if that's really a catch-22 the way you've described it since you added the caveat "but in an unsatisfactory way". The solution there would be to just do it in a satisfactory way right? If they had established early on that Silver was a character who they were going to use moderately and only when they needed some time travel bull-shit, people would probably be less inclined to complain when he didn't show up all time. Some still would, but having a general pattern and an actual handling on the characters creates a different expectation then the lazy, hap-hazard way they currently are using them. As it stands, there is no set standard so people are probably more antsy when someone is left out of the loop. It wasn't because Silver was a character with a role to play. It was because Silver was treated like a character who could and WOULD just... show up. Whenever. Without reason. Without a purpose. -
Sonic Under New Management Part 2: Hedgehog Boogaloo? (Reports of Sega of Japan studio restructure/new IP development)
VEDJ-F replied to Gabriel's topic in Upcoming Sonic Games
I don't think this changes much. Most of the big names of Sonic Team are in America right now anyway, and it's not like the rest of the Japanese "Sonic Team" have stayed very consistent over the past few games. -
Well, my computer is acting up so I need to reset it to make sure it's just a bug. Seeing as it's so late now for me I guess I'll say good night SSMB. See you bright and early
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Kuzu the Boloedge replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
But there lies the problem, Sonic team don't design these characters with long term appearances in mind. That's why they have characters arcs that don't go past one game. But if they prove popular, then Sonic Team feel obligated to keep using them to meet fan demand, regardless if they'd fit or not. It's why characters like Shadow, Blaze, and Silver are still around. They're too popular to drop, but Sonic Team clearly have no use for them either. Take Sonic Forces for example; the main focus of that game are Sonic, The Avatar, and Classic Sonic with Infinite as the new big threat. If you're trying to focus on those elements, how are you also supposed to juggle the plethora of supporting characters too? Sonic Unleashed had a similar plot with world threatening consequences, but the focus of the game is on Sonic & Chip; you don't need any of the other supporting characters to tell that story and so they didn't appear and nobody really batted an eye. With Generations and Forces though, they go out of their way of adding these characters knowing full well they had no real use for them because fans kept demanding the return of the supporting characters. Sonic Team feel obligated to keep using these characters because they fans that want to see them, but they also don't have any real plans for them ether hence why they just show up with nothing to do. They're kind of in a catch-22; if they don't use the characters, people complain they're not being used. If they are used, but in an unsatisfactory way, people complain they're annoying and taking focus away from Sonic. Nintendo avoided this issue entirely because they've never created that expectation to begin with; yea, people complain how minimal Mario plots are, but Nintendo don't give a shit and just do their own thing and save those characters for spin offs only and they've committed to that. Wanna see Baby Peach or Waluigi? Tough shit pal, hold that. -
You know how SEGA has been treating the classic sonic brand lately to the point where it's pretty much overshadowing the modern stuff(sort of)? Just think that was what Sonic Boom could of been.
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eh, outside of tie-in stuff specifically connected to mania (merch, mania adventures miniseries, etc.) i'm not really seeing such a resurgence taking place. modern/adventure sonic still gets (sole) priority in stuff like ralph breaks the internet, team sonic racing, and smash bros ultimate. not to mention the resurgence is based on the performance of only one game...
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SupahBerry reacted to this
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Dude that Mania train has been left the station into yonder like a month after Plus was out
That resurgence has all but fizzled out
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SupahBerry reacted to this
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
ThePrinceOfSaiyans replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
Honestly, probably the SEGA Saturn. I don't think it's a coincidence that there was a noticeable dip in quality after SEGA went third party, and the Saturn's poor sales had a lot to do with that. -
What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Dr. Detective Mike replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
Well, sure. The Sonic characters had significant enough roles to play when they first showed up. Like most characters in a story. An easy way to fix that would be to make sure that when they show up in a story, they're there because they have a significant role to play again. Colors isn't a story with a premise that needs a ton of characters in it, for example. The number of people that were in it was fine for what it was. Forces, on the other hand, had a plot that dealt with Eggman taking over the world. In order to get the best out of a plot like that, having a lot of characters with something to contribute would go hand and hand. Giving each person something to do or something to learn in a tale like that would've been expected. Both of these games tripped up for me though. Colors, I just thought was written badly. Forces, not only was it written badly, but it did nothing with the cast it had on top of that. Just a bunch of wasted opportunities. People having this expectation out of these characters is fine, you just need to be able to handle it. They don't know how to handle it. -
i actually went through multiple thread titles for the latest topic
sorry i had to settle for "hedgehog boogaloo" i couldn't think of anything good
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This has been something of an emerging topic within the statuses over yesterday and today, and at least a few (including myself) thought it warranted its own thread. I'm posting this in the Upcoming Games subforum as I think it could pertain to the future of Sonic management, but mods are free to move this into the general Green Hills subforum. (As for the thread title--consider it a belated followup to this thread from 2016, when it was reported that Sega of America was being established as the new hub for the production of Sonic games and Iizuka had moved back to Southern California to oversee their development.) Earlier today at ResetERA, Null Pointer (a member who has been verified by Era site staff as a senior localization producer at Atlus) had this to say in a thread about Sega's [current] development studios: "Hey guys, I just noticed this thread since it got floated up, and wanted to point out that some of the info in the OP is a couple years out of date and is more accurate for SEGA circa 2013 or so, not 2018 (going on 2019). Just hitting the broad strokes, CS3 doesn't exist anymore (absorbed into the other two studios), and the current heads of CS1 and CS2 are Sato-san and Kasahara-san, respectively. Online, while it does have some mobile related stuff, is not "the mobile studio", and it is headed by a gentleman named Segawa-san. SEGA Interactive (AM) studios are a little vague to me, but those are a totally different company than SEGA Games. Edit: I use SEGA Retro as a quick reference from time to time and appreciate when it's accurate." --- Assuming what Null says is true, CS3 is gone, with its staff folded into the remaining CS1 and CS2 groups, both of which also have new studio overheads (Daisuke Sato for CS1, Eigo Kasahara Kasahara for CS2). (Sega's Online division also has a new lead (Sagawa) and may not be strictly concerned with mobile projects.) Recall that as of late... - CS1 was/is the "Yakuza" division (Yakuza series by internal Yakuza group, the Fist of the North Star and [upcoming] Judgement spinoffs) and was/is overseen by Toshihiro Nagoshi. - CS2 was/is the "Sonic" division (Sonic series by Sonic Team group, Mario and Sonic Olympics, Puyo Puyo) and was/is [generally] overseen by Takashi Iizuka. - CS3 was/is the "Miscellaneous"group that handled other projects (including but not limited to Project DIVA, Valkyria Chronicles, Shining, and M2's 3D Classics re-releases) and/is was overseen by Akira Nishino. (Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of the information above.) In addition, 4gamer yesterday also released a article about Sega Games, talking about the hiring process and the available job positions the company had. The article also included this notable bit (English translation by Google translate and original Japanese text included below), which says CS2 may be at work on a original property: --- The second CS studio is handling various SEGA Games IP works such as "Sonic the Hedgehog" series, "Puyo Puyo" series, "Sakura Wars" series. It is unusual for a single staff member to be involved in multiple projects at the same time, but it seems that there are cases where staff who worked on "Sonic" participates in the new work of "Puyo Puyo" next time. In addition, the studio is also working on a new IP, but for that reason it was revealed that the "challenge budget" was set up at SEGA Games. ~ 第2CSスタジオは「ソニック・ザ・ヘッジホッグ」シリーズや「ぷよぷよ」シリーズ，「サクラ大戦」シリーズなど，セガゲームスのさまざまなIP作品を手がけている。1人のスタッフが同時に複数のプロジェクトに関わるケースは稀だが，「ソニック」を手がけたスタッフが，次は「ぷよぷよ」の新作に参加するといったケースはあるそうだ。 また，同スタジオでは新規IPも手がけているが，そのためにセガゲームスでは「チャレンジ予算」が設けられていることが明かされた。 --- The article also mentions Sega Games relocated to a new office in Osaki, Tokyo, back in August; which was done to consolidate various groups working in the Tokyo metropolitan area into one location. (4gamer linked to an article where they covered the new office's opening exhibition in September.) A more precise translation is appreciated, although at least one poster at Era says the "new IP" translation is accurate. Taking both reports into account and assuming they are both correct; this signals a significant change in in paradigm shift of Sega's focus with their games. With CS3 as a division dissolved and CS1 firmly established in Yakuza games, this points to CS2 taking CS3's mantle of working on general projects, especially with the report of that division working on a new IP. In the context of Sonic, I believe this gives a very heavy implication that the Sonic series is no longer considered a priority IP for Sega of Japan, to the point of possibly no longer having its own division. Coupled with what we know about SoA being the new center for Sonic development, this would speak volumes on where management over the franchise's direction lies--it might possibly be in Sega of America's hands now. By this, I'm not just referring to tie-in merchandising efforts, I think this could even entail which studio(s) gets to produce the games and what design decisions are upheld (or thrown out) as the series' standard. It also raises questions for what happens to the Sonic Team group as we know it from here on out, who have up until this point been the undisputed producer of almost every Sonic game up until this point.
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
MadmanRB replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
Of course the answer is Sonic 06 as the series still hasnt recovered from it. Boom might have an effect too but not nearly on the level of 06. 06 nearly killed the franchise, and its effects are very long term -
What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Meta77 replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
i do not think 06 hurt that bad. Most who hate on 06 probably were already on the offset of not caring about sonic to begin with. What hurt/s the franchise the most is sega not taking the time to make sure the games good, testing it, and just not giving a crap as a game nears its finish. That alone is why 06 was a mess, thats why shadow was toned down from this game they meant to be dark and not mellow high school rated teen i said damn, and even forces with a final fight with infinite just gone. Id be willing to forgive them just a tiny bit if they could write a blasted good story. -
What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Kuzu the Boloedge replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
I feel the treatment of the cast in both series comes down to focus. Mario has far less focus on narrative than Sonic does. Mario plots are basically summed as "Bowser(or whoever) is causing trouble, go stop him" and that's that, no greater focus. Even when the plot is more fleshed out in RPG's, the basic gist is the same. After that, you, the player, are in the control of the entire game up until the ending when Mario saves the day. That's it. There's no focus on the cast because that basic of a plot only really needs a few elements. So Mario, the hero you play as, the Bowser the bad guy who causes trouble, and Peach the damsel you have to rescue. You can add anybody else, but they're not really necessary for telling that story. Sonic, on the other hand, tends to be far dynamic with it's narrative. Hence, the characters need to be a bit more dynamic for the plot to work. At their most basic, it's just Eggman causing trouble and Sonic and his sidekick Tails have to stop him. But then Eggman unleashes an ancient water god out of the Emerald that Knuckles is guarding, so now Knuckles has to get involved. Eggman kidnaps a bird that Amy is looking after, so she has to be involved. Eggman creates a new robot to serve him, which justifies Gamma. And Froggy is possessed by Chaos` tail, which causes Big to get involved. And that's not even going into the can of worms involving Shadow. Sonic Team kind of created this expectation in the series of most of the cast having some type of significant role, while Mario didn't. That's they their treatment is different. It's why nobody bats an eye when nobody shows up in a Mario game outside of spin offs, but why so many people are upset with how inconsequential the cast have become in Sonic. -
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What are the worst things that happen to the franchise?
Dr. Detective Mike replied to Rowl's topic in Green Hills Zone
Yeah, I have to agree for the most part. Maybe if they had actually been trying to properly incorporate everyone in these games through significant gameplay and story changes with each new title and just weren't able to, I could see the issue at hand being just the number of characters in the main and secondary cast. They haven't really, though. Sonic Adventure had 6 playstyles, one for each character. Then in Adventure 2, it went down to 3 playstyles despite there being the same number of characters. Then in Heroes it was technically only really one playstyle. You had a group of three that acted as a singular unit that could run, punch, and fly and that was copy and pasted across 12 characters, double what the last two games had before. And also, despite the number of characters, Heroes' story is considered to be one of the simplest in the series. And this is a game that actually managed to keep everyone hinged on their own motivations for the most part. Knuckles was starting to slip away a bit but at the very least his island and the Master Emerald have a few mentions in the game. Shadow's game is kind of where I liked how the characters were handled the best, honestly. They were off on their own missions and when Shadow comes across them, he gets a taste of what they're trying to do. Their exploits become a part of his experience like subplots to his main story. It was a good formula for creating a beefy adventure, a lived in world, and a war that actually felt like a war. I wish Forces had done this. Neither game had a good story to tell unfortunately. The only game that had multiple playable characters that gave them their own individual styles after the first Sonic Adventure was Sonic 06 actually. That method of making sure everyone played completely different from one another was time-consuming and unnecessary. I actually rather like the speed, power, flight dynamic they have. Or at the very least, do a Sonic Mania and change very little but keep the core of who they are relatively the same. Most of these issues just come down to bad planning and decision making to be honest. I can't speak for anyone else but for me, when it comes to the cast, their problems hinge mostly from how they're being handled. Not from how many of them there are. Seeing Charmy sting that one clone made me happier than it should have. Only really because I felt in my bones that there might be a chance where he and the Chaotix could be apart of something that mattered or have some general focus that meant something again. Brainstorming plot and story ideas is fun but when you see just how much of a good thing is being wasted on them just standing around in the modern games, it doesn't make a very good case for them sticking around in the eyes of other people, this is true. All Sonic Team is doing by shoving them in and having them stand around is validating the criticisms against them that say they're useless. A lot of people really like these characters and you're never going to endear these characters to the people who don't like them by having them do nothing and shouting meaningless nonsense. "It looks like a homing shot" indeed. I will say that I still don't feel like the cast being huge has contributed much to the different gameplay thing as much as some people claim it has. Again, the only time they've felt the need to make sure every single character played completely differently from each other was in Adventure and 06. Sonic 06 was the prime example of "what the fuck are you doing" since it tried doing this with 9 characters when Sonic Adventure barely managed with 6. Not to mention, Sonic being the only character in Unleashed didn't stop them from changing the gameplay styles either. I think when it comes to that, they're mostly just making dumb decisions. I'd still be fine if they stuck with what Heroes did and assigned each character a slot in speed, power, and flight. -
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