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Sega DogTagz

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Sega DogTagz last won the day on March 28 2011

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About Sega DogTagz

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    Never Let it Die! Keep Drawing Archie Characters!

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    RAGNITE, Drawing, Video Games, Football (American), ZAPDOS, Muscle Cars, Archie Comics
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  1. Sega DogTagz

    Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

    It does happen in real life. It just the only things that are observable moving at the kind of speeds necessary to attain such a thing occur at the quantum level.
  2. Sega DogTagz

    Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

    Are you seriously questioning the FTL status of moving so fast you become intangible? Does that sound like anything someone can do without obliterating the lightspeed wall? The Super Collider smashes atoms together at lightspeed and they haven't had any particles phase through each other yet. But if you want math.... fine. The only phenomenon I can think of where two solid objects are capable of moving through each other as a result of an impact is Quantum Tunneling. Super long story short, when you are dealing with Quantum Mechanics, there is a notable possibility that some particles, when smashed head-on into other particles have an unusual tendency to come out the other side. Not punch through, put phase or "tunnel" through another solid object. Something that would otherwise be impossible. This is probably most common in electrons and it happens often enough that it is the reason micro-transistors in computer chips can't be built below a certain size threshold. Looking at the speed of which this phenomenon takes place, more than a few scientists of published reports that it appears to be an instantaneous model. Here is one take from 2015 https://phys.org/news/2015-05-physicists-quantum-tunneling-mystery.html#jCp Even through there is some variation around recent studies here and there, they all concur that at the slowest end of the spectrum this is AttoSecond level research. Which would place any form of Quantum Tunnel well WELL beyond light speed. And if it is actually instantaneous as some of the reports seem to believe, that would make vibrating your molecules a feat on part with his SonicMan Stunt. Even if it falls in the attosecond range that's still in spitting distance of the smallest moment of time we are able to observe. Base Sonic embarrassed QuickMan all over the battlefield in the previous crossover. His speed wasn't even comparable to Sonic. Calling any component from QuickMan added onto SonicMan an upgrade would be like taking the engine out of a prius and throwing it into an F1 speedster and calling that an upgrade. Sonic didn't need any help in any of the instances he turned reality on its head. And seeing as how he can pull Chaos Energy from the environment, it isn't all too much different from what most of the Flash's do with the speed force. Prove that. I you feel confident that the previous Robot masters had enhanced physical capabilities then show me where they put it on display. From where I am sitting I didn't see ShadowMan do anything that would prove difficult for Shadow, or EspioMan do anything the original couldn't do just as well. The links are irrelevant because the guy behind those arguments couldn't see the forest through the trees. Take the cosmic interstate for example. Sure you can't use the entire feat as a precise measurement of speed because we are missing too much data. Without the precise time it took to make the round trip and the individual sizes of each universe, its impossible to get a realistic number. However that does not mean we can't extrapolate value from the feat from the information we do have. It specifically states that the entrance to the cosmic interstate is at the edge of the known universe. While we don't know the exact distance of the interstate between each dimension, we do know the size of our universe-at around 46 billion light years. Lets unrealistically lowball that and say the milkyway galaxy is on the edge of the known universe. The M W is at least 125,000 Light years across. For Sonic to run that far and return in any amount of time that did not see him age into dust makes him MFTL. It doesn't matter if it took him a second, an hour, a day or a year. To go that far and come back means he would have been traveling at a speed that makes thousands of lightyears child's play. And that's without getting into campy roadsigns, or what he did in each universe or whatever. We know he's MFTL just by has ability to reach the interstate at all.
  3. Sega DogTagz

    Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

    You say that like DC characters don't constantly gain access to spontaneous power boosts. Either way, SonicMan is still Sonic, and to that end, we can see that there is little if any power gain by the process via the other characters that went through the same process. Its worth noting that none of the other Robotisized Masters, Amy, Shadow, Tails, ect. showed any degree of exponential growth in their abilities from pre-transformation to post. SilverMan was no more adept at ESP than Silver. BlazeWoman was no better at controlling Fire than Blaze. SonicMan was no faster than Sonic. SonicMan was not immune. In fact, his processor was designed around QuickMan, the RobotMaster whom was actually weak to Time Stopper in MM2. Furthermore, TimeMan flat out stated that he had been slowing SonicMan down with his ability. That he had been doing so for the entity of their fight. It just didn't matter because he was still too fast for them. After that, Flash Man, activated his Flash Stopper and sent SonicMan tumbling straight down and crashing. It clearly effected him before he got back up and turned on the speed. SonicMan was not immune. He just outran it. That is infinite speed. It would be the perception of those around you and the reality. Mathematically, the only way to move under a complete time stop scenario would be to be traveling at a speed that surpasses infinity. If Shadow were to completely stop time via chaos control or if Flash Man were to use his Flash Stopper on an opponent, he would only be moving at infinite speed relative to the people around him. It has more to do with them being stopped than Shadow or Flash Man speeding up. SonicMan gains those speeds by speeding up. Complexly different scenario. End result looks the same, but only one is a result of pure speed. SonicMan is moving faster than time elapses. Pretty much all of those abilities are surpassed and then some by what Sonic can do when he is tapped into the Chaos Force. He rewrites reality which includes space and time. And for all the times Flash is consistently above Sonic, he is also consistently faced with death when he pushes himself that hard. Sonic isnt. You can't label something at outlier if he's constantly doing things that show it is within his feasible range. Vibrating your molecules through solid objects requires MFTL speed. Traveling the cosmic interstate requires MFTL speed (and he's legged it through here more than once) The waterball requires MFTL speed Dodging lightning and running between raindrops is MFTL Throwing sand getting traction and running along it before the physics sets in is MFTL Being fast enough to "see" Shadow warp past him in SA2 is MFTL SonicMan is .... Jesus The list goes on. And thats even ignoring the blatantly stupid stuff like Punching his own shadow or spinning so fast he becomes invisible At what point is this not an outlier and just what the character is capable of doing. Most versions of Flash tend to die if they go at half the speeds we are talking about. Sonic has feats that put him in the MFTL category and nothing from the previous set of robotmasters suggested a significant boost to capabilities. (if anything, its holding him back)
  4. Sega DogTagz

    Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

    If this discussion were limited to Game Sonic, then I'd be right there with you. However the term "The Flash" is an all encompassing term that contains so many sources that they can't all possibly be canon. In your response alone you've listed at least 2 eras of comics and a TV show. It only fair that the term "Sonic" be equally as encompassing. Once you open the door to Archie Sonic, this becomes an entirely different argument. Most of the stuff Flash can do as a result of his speed are replicable by other speedsters. Archie Sonic has vibrated his molecules through things just like Flash (he even took Tails along for the ride in issue 119). The infinite mass punch is nothing special. Its just basic math. As the comics state, its the end result of getting punched by someone moving near the speed of light. Anyone who can run that fast would be able to do that. If Sonic was moving at light speed, his punches would hit like a dwarf star too. (he'd have to go a little bit faster since he weighs less, but you get the point). speaking of.... SonicMan continued to run circles around the opposition while under the effect of Time Man's "Time Slow" ability. The entire group was forced to come to realization that even under the effect of "Time Slow", SonicMan was too fast to hit. Impressive as that is, we can't quantify that into a speed, without knowing how much of a slowdown "Time Slow" actually is. We do however know how much of an impact Flash Man's "Time Stopper" ability does. Its been confirmed in several places (and is actually in the name of the move) that "Time Stopper" completely stops time around the target. As in absolute zero. And yet, by just in the nature of how fast SonicMan is, while under the effects of "Time Stopper" SonicMan got up, rushed FlashMan and punted him into low orbit. Forget the speed of light. That is literally un-calculable speed. It transcends all known measurements of speed. In order to even move under the effect of a Time-Stop, SonicMan would be transcending all known physics. The equation for speed is (Rate = Distance/Time) In this scenario, the time elapsed for Sonic man to cover any distance, be it a single step, a short jog or across the universe is ZERO. No matter what number you plug into distance, you literally cannot measure how fast SonicMan was moving here because its faster than instantaneous travel. Quite frankly, mathematically you can't go any faster than that.
  5. Sega DogTagz

    Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

    If your going to blatantly ignore back issues of Sonic comics due to either its canon status or application via toonforce then you have to do the same for Flash. The golden and silver age era DC comics are chock full of much of the same kind of nonsense, and the DC brand in of itself has been re-booted enough times to bring the canon status of almost every iteration of the flash into question. Where do you draw the line there? And on top of that, Archie Sonic's highest speed feat wasn't even done back then - so its not like omitting them slows down his top speed any. It was done in the much more recent MegaMan Crossover - thus validating a lot of those old-school shenanigans as more than just boasts.
  6. Sega DogTagz

    Sonic Speed Tiers

    Other examples include the CG cut-scenes in 06, where he could fly across the city in the blink of an eye, and the Sonic Generations Boss Battle, were he could also fly at Boost-era speeds. If his flight is fair game, I think sticking him in somewhere under Blaze is the best call to make.
  7. First off, that trumps squat. Rouge being able to track Espio is not leagues beyond what other character can do. In fact, In the comics, Knuckles is the resident expert chameleon tracker and specifically states that it is not difficult to do so, so long as you know how. There is a trick to spotting chameleons through their camouflage and stealth - not a skill barrier. Rouge shows good awareness sure, but she's still been caught red handed in a heist multiple times (SA2, battle, 06), she still attempted to claim a Chaos Emeralds in 06 unaware of the danger of Iblis (to which Shadow was the first to react), and has been surprised just like everyone else. I'm not so quick to put her on a pedistal that much higher than anyone else While Blaze's training is vague, she too has proven to be keen. She has been aware of other characters tailing her (Rush), and perceptive enough to see through potential danger (Rush Adv). Her skills are sharp Blaze powers through her fear of heights in every game. It has never significant limited her in any way. Blaze also has an infinite supply of ammunition in the form of fireballs, so projectiles arn't a problem for her and with a running start + her burst hover, Blaze has no small degree of aerial maneuverability. Rouge would have a much harder time tracking down something moving so fast than Blaze would hitting something in the air. Where? In Rush and Rush adventure, fire recedes when in Blaze's presence and she walks through unharmed. Point is he took a universal amount of damage and survived more or less unscathed. Powerscale-ing Blaze's fireball by how much damage it did to him is a fools errand because a.) she wasn't trying to hurt him and b.) in the grant scheme of things a punch from crabmeat has the same lethality as getting run through by the Egg Dragoon. The only real takeaways we can see from damage output is what it takes to knock Sonic out. There are very few characters that have ever shown the kind of power to knock out Sonic in a single blow with anything short of a sucker punch. Blaze can. and that is straight out of Sonic Rush. Chronicles is non-canon because it is. I shouldn't need to reiterate this - but whatever. It wasn't made by Sonic Team, its never been directly referenced by any of the canon games, it takes massive liberties with established characters, it a choose-your-own-dialog adventure making most of the content obsolete, blah blah blah here In the top of this post AAUK reminds us that Kevin Eva (Community Manager of Sega Europe) has gone on record stating that Chronicles is one of the Non-Canon games. I actually like all the lure the game adds to the franchise. But it is firmly in the non-canon category. No ifs ands or buts about it. Now your just hypothesizing. If your going to go down that road, let remember that in the Megaman crossover comics, Blaze went up against a small army of fire starters and fire benders and overpowered each and every one by taking their fire and using it against them. Her magic fire hands were a class above. Not to be matched or negated by other sets of fire benders. Another good example is her relation to Bean. That duck can create and spontaneously combust explosives with a thought. And yet if explosions require fire, Blaze is cable of rendering them inert. Again, her control over pyrokenisis trumps other magical properties. So unless those magic trinkets have shown the ability to nerf other forms of magic, I think Blaze's pyro tricks will manage just fine. Why would Rouge even have all this junk anyway. Its not like she keeps a copy of every series power-up in her back pocket. She's not Batman. She still has no feats. Her biggest claim to fame is a few wins against Amy heads up. An untrained kid who quite frankly is at a disadvantage in a direct conflict with a trained spy. Amy sacks armies in the Archie comics. Blaze has played the protagonist role in multiple games, fought the big bosses that come with it, and sacks Death Eggs in the comics. Blaze Trumps a full barrage from Omega and brings him to his knees - leaving him in awe of her pure power. If we are talking about a tier list, head-to-head match ups are only part of the equation. Rouge lacks any of the higher order feats of most of the other heavy hitter girls at the top of the list have in spades. Until Rouge shows the capability to walk into an army of robots on her own and come out the other side, she deserves the third spot firmly behind both Blaze and Amy. She's the least impressive because she has yet to do anything all too impressive.
  8. The circumstances make any rebel a rebel. The term is always ushered in as a matter of perspective. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" Depending on where you are standing, you could make the argument that Sonic could be one of this biggest rebels in the history of anything.
  9. Sonic fits the description of a Rebel 100% in Black Knight. He took up arms against an established ruler.
  10. Sonic X is about as Canon as Sonic Chronicles - which is to say not at all. You don't get to cherry pick where you get your examples from. I don't see what leg you have to stand on to calling other sources out-of-bounds when 80% of your argument on what Rouge is capable of comes from things that are also decidedly non Canon. Tails has super speed too. He's been seen legging it left and right, but no one is mistaking him for being in Sonic's class. The same is true for Knuckles, Rouge and pretty much the entire cast. Mobians all have that base level of speed that comes with he territory. Blaze however has undeniably moved past that stage. She has been spoken about having that Sonic tier of speed. She is has been compared to Sonic in the same breath. And as for Sonic's growth, there are only a small handful of characters that have on-screen been 100% confirmed to be able to case pace with Sonic at booting speeds. Blaze is one of those few. Fire is hot. Fire is harmful to living things. Its not so much game mechanics as it is common sense. The fact that Sonic characters take damage from fire and heat in-game is just icing on the cake. Yes. Blaze's fire works underwater in the games (see Sonic rush.) It's melted bandiks down to slag. Ignoring their outward protections and boiling them inside out. That is a kind of armor piercing. Unless your packing some kind of fire retardant in your armor, Fire is naturally armor piercing. The hotter the flame, the quicker the pierce. Her fire claw and axel tornado chew through metal armor instantaneously in the games and comics. Unless something pops up with some extremely thick plating - Blaze's fire will chew through it fast enough that the time it takes to do so isn't an issue. Sonic has tanked a black hole collapsing on itself too. Powerscaling like this is inconsequential. We have evidence in the comics and games that show these characters are not flat out immune to fire damage. Trying to lead anyone to believe that those same flames can't kill is madness. Blaze gives Sonic all he can handle in their fight at Dead Line. Rouge has the training and skills to use her natural hearing, vision and awareness to their peak capacity. Nothing more nothing less. Blaze is no slouch in that department either. In this series, I'd say the character with Sonic's speed has more battlefield control than Rouge's flight.
  11. Blatant disregard for speed limits Technically speaking, Vigilantism is a crime. so you could bend that into being a factual representation if you wanted to.
  12. LOL What part of that was supposed to be impressive? Flying Dog is a low tier boss character and those three bots she trashed in X were somewhere between cannon fodder and low-tier boss. Rouge would be expected to win those encounters. Rouge's feats pale in comparison across the board. Amy has beat down the Iron King. A guy whom is invulnerable to everyone else on the planet and who was capable of beating Sonic and Monkey Khan 1 vs. 2 Amy has solo engaged the Badnik horde and forced them into a full retreat. That is thousands if not hundred-of-thousands or Bandniks worth of metal she reduced to scrap on her own. Blaze has engaged and taken down many much more dangerous Boss level characters on her own. In her base form. Flying Dog is a Flying puppy compared to the Egg King, Ghost Whale or the Ghost Titan. Blaze has wiped out every fire robot master at once, using fire. Rouge has next to no feats where she pulls out impossible odds via direct combat (namely because she is smart enough to not put herself in those situations). She's never stared down an army and won. She'd never solo'd a AAA threat like Iron King. She's never even had to deal with much more than the lowest tier of boss encounters on her own in a fight to the death scenario. Rouge sneaks on board of Death Eggs. Blaze shoots them out of the sky with Kamehameha's. I know which one I am crowning as the most dangerous. Using a certain move Blaze is capable of killing Sonic in their deadline boss battle regardless of how many rings he has. It doesn't matter how much "massive damage" Rouge can do, I don't think she's ever shown the ability to deliver an OTK on a main character. Blaze can.
  13. Rouge's senses are honed - not enhanced. There is a difference. She's no different than Espio or even Blaze in that department. Knuckles is always listed as being as strong as Sonic is fast. Guess who's speed Blaze's rivals? Fire inherently pieces most defenses. It naturally melts armor and it naturally inhibits targets with burns. It doesn't matter that Blaze missed out on the combat focused entries in the series, the natural capabilities of fire bending give her most of those advantages. We've seen her use her fire as a shield. We've seen her use it to box people in or keep them away. Yes these characters are durable, but that doesn't mean they will just walk through fire. Sonic is as durable as the next guy, and walking into Fire in Sonic Rush always elicits the same result. Getting thrown backwards and causing damage. It will kill him with no rings. The same is true with fire in Sonic 06. Shadow and Rouge both take damage from stepping on lava and the Iblis monsters are living fire monsters and can inflict damage via flamthrower. If rouge has no rings she will die via exposure to fire. Blaze's flames are not to be taken lightly. A steady stream of fire would do in Rouge without question. Well lets throw some more stuff into the equation. Since your in the market of using fringe power-ups and what not from side games, lets not forget Blaze was a power character in Sonic Runners, which means she possesses no small amount of strength. Combined with her Sonic tier speed, that makes her incredibly fearsome. Hits like Knux and moves like Sonic? that sounds busted to me. Furthermore, you can't just crown Rouge as the most dangerous female in the universe. Blaze and Amy actually have massive feats to her name that Rouge can't compare to in any medium. Blaze and Amy have solo tank'd Armies. Rouge hasn't. Blaze and Amy have taken down threats larger than anything Rouge has ever faced on her own. But that same Knuckles did prove to be too much for Rouge in SA2.... and Sonic X (even at a massive disadvantage). So that is a significant counterpoint.
  14. How so? Especially considering that the linchpin of Rouge's kit outside of basic kicking, are explosives, which Blaze is completely invulnerable too and can even use against Rouge with the snap of a finger. Blaze has far more impressive feats under her belt, Has speed only a tick lower than Sonic in a franchise where speed is king, and also spits fire. And for all the skill Rouge has, Blaze isn't a slouch in that department either. She's been through rigorous training to be the guardian of the Sol emeralds her whole life. She's been a solo act for most of that time too, meaning pre-Sonic Rush, Blaze was handling business and gaining experience without the help of anyone else. What part of Rouge's arsenal exceeds Pyrokenisis? Rouge isn't Batman. She doesn't have a bottomless utility belt or cunning on par with pre-cognition.
  15. Y'know, Hamlin was insufferable, but at the end of the day I like what they did with him on the council of Acorn. He was downright bitter and resentful about getting the short end of the straw as a Freedom Fighter, and he kind of took it out on the rest of the crew by being the legal thorn in the side and better represented the limitation playing within the rules has on characters like Sonic. Sonic does what is "right", even before what is "good". By contrasting him with a cast of characters like Hamlin, we got more stories where we could accurately depict that part of Sonic. He was kind of like a necessary evil.

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