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  1. So if you don't agree with you all , don't discuss anything on the forum. Cool beans. Subjectivity isn't apathy, it means you think a thing. No one implied anything. I argued it was that I was correct. Which doesn't mean its indisputable, and is a lot louder than implying.
  2. ...No No I retract my statement. I am done. I do not know how to respond to this
  3. I'm done. You all have fun. I have no interest in arguing the subjective nature of who finds what value in art. I don't.
  4. This is an opinion. I disagree. Some of my favorite stories. Like say this game, have mistakes in them. Or just lapses in story telling. Characters aren't real. People write them. Unless you can give me a canonical reason as to why the character who can run fast didn't in the situation where it would have behooved them to had no other distractions and could have just done so , didn't. That's a plot hole. You yelling about mistakes don't make it a mistake. You have to explain that. The onus is on you now. So unless you have an explanation, I don't know what to tell you. Shadow didn't " make a mistake" he's not real, its on the part of the person telling the story to tell you he did and convince its believable. They didn't. They didn't say anything. It just sort of happens for plot reasons. And doesn't really make sense. Cool, but shadow has been shown to be in cutscene. So either the story the cutscenes were telling matters and these things combine to communicate that he's highly durable. Something that he is. Or they don't matter and Look below By solders he could have outran ran back and punched whilist dodging bullets. Heck if we are still using your idea that the game play is actually 1 to 1 with canon. The soldiers in shadows game move incredible slow...so...yeah
  5. Games need mechanics. And considering he survives reentry later those mechanics probably aren't really reflective of what they feel the character is capable of and the games need enemies. Sonic and Shadow can run MUCH faster in the cutscene and story material than they can in games and do much more. And use their abilities more, the lapse between cut scene in game is kind of large. Again he literally hits the earth in a force far stronger than any bullet in existence and all he got was knocked out and amnesia. Other Edit: It should also be noted no one telling the story even the people making those cutscenes are using their in game limitations as a 1 to 1 representation of what they can and cant do. These characters have set powers, they are interpenetrating them as such. But you know what, i'll give you that. But you have walked yourself into another corner, lets say the games are 1 to 1 representation of everything that character can do. The games are a 1 to 1 canon. You can run faster than bullets in all those games. Everyone in you play as can run, fly glyde, whatever faster than bullets. The mechanics specifically require you to outrun bullets. Also edit: wait a minute can in the later boost games the playable character just boost through bullets. Like things are firing bullets at you and you just boost through them. So not only can he run faster than bullets , the running even in your example IIRC would make him stronger against bullets Maybe he couldn't block the bullets in your example. He can out run them. But he decided to walk...for some reason.
  6. Eh I mean shadow could have ran her down the hall way hid her. Ran back and beat them up. Again it dont matter. Like the story being told is more important. But like there were ways to deal with that. Heck you could have him run down and fight them off and hes overwhelmed. Hes kinda green and his not used to his body he had only been alive iirc for a week when the arc incident happened. So he quickly burned out. Ran back she set up the pod gets shot. Boom. He messed up, he over estimated his strength vowes to get stronger or get revenge. Heck you can actually connect it further by suggesting this why shadow has inhibitior rings. Gerald worked on shadow more whilst imprisoned by gun. Maybe he thinks of it because shadow burning out is why his grand daughter died. Sort of training wheels. Again do these details matter, no. I think its fun to elaborate on things. But ultimately no. The story was told and its effective. But you could have told a more structured solid story. And its fun to point out the odd bits and ends
  7. Sometimes "mistakes and errors" and character to a piece. This one adds heart to shadows story. That's it. I like sonic partially because it isnt perfect. Sometimes mistakes work out and this one did. Did you know the combo's in street fighter were made on accident? Now that's a just a thing in all fighting games. Speaking of capcom accidents, dmc was partially inspired by an onimusha glitch that let you juggle enemies. Two whole genres whos bnb's were made because of a mistake. Sometimes things not being perfect makes them unique and unique is sometimes better. And I would say shadow is generally one of the more unique sonic characters. His origin isn't perfect but it doesn't matter. Its fun and engaging. sometimes our perceptions of what's good and bad in stories are mired in technicalities. Sometimes whats more important is what's good. So i stand by my statements. Plot holes aren't inherently bad they just...are. Whether you care about them generally relies on narratively quality. But when you are having good fun in a thread, they are fun to point out.
  8. That's not comparable? The situation at hand is a tragedy that could have been prevented by a character doing a thing he normally does. I have the same issue with silver in forces as well. The thing you comparable it to, is actually easily explainable and has become more explainable as time goes on. Super man is busy and despite what Luther claims, isn't actually an omnipotent God who can't be stopped Super man can't be everywhere at once. He can't do everything. He gets tired has weaknesses. Has a family , needs to rest. Or is doing other shit. Shadow had nothing else to do. But run. Silver theoretically could have solved but that would have ruined the narrative he wanted to tell. So he did something that more or less works wth canon. Also your example is not only wrong its also disingenuous. Because how ian says it himself isn't to deter those "Superman" but primarily just wanting to tell a story that works. Ian flynn is a detail oriented guy, sometimes too much. While he's more than willing to leave it up to the viewer he likes in his writing if he can with sonic to come up with a bunch of crazy specific stuff. Sometimes its a flaw, sometimes its a benefit, but it's how he writes. That's an inconsistency in the plot and until you or anyone else can actually why didn't he run. Then that's what it is. Doesn't matter in the end. Ultimately the story was told, it was very effective and we collectively just ignored that. But like yeah I'm angling for the thing that I wrote. Talk about what I wrote. Or you can argue with a litteral strawman take your pick. It really hurts your suggestion when I say "the story is still cool this seems kinda funky". There is no angling. I like sa2 and its dumb. That's the statement. Talk about that. This is litterally the thing I have been saying and is basically my point. Thanks for getting it. Plot holes aren't inherently bad. Sometimes the story is more important, than its parts. Sometimes its fun to look at those holes. That's it.
  9. You realize im not saying the plot point is the plot hole. But rather how its executed. No one made the argument you are arguing. NO ONE. Not me, not the OP. The heck there isn't even an argument. Its just mentioned its kinda weird he didn't do thing there and he could have. That is a plot hole. There's no reason he shouldn't have done that. No one is arguing the moment shouldn't happened, its how it has been set up is bad. Heck it isn't even bad. I mention multiple times , you can quote me that it doesn't actually matter because what it does for shadow's story and for his character is good and speas to the strength of his character. Its in the post you quoted... BRUH The point of that post is, yes without the incident there is no story. They don't really justify it well, he just doesn't do what he can do because plot needs to happen. Rather than an more well thought out set up, that makes him unable to do that. That sort of spurs to become stronger. It shows some of ya'll don't read. NO ONE SAID THIS Stop, Also this example is used incorrectly Gwen stacy's thing is that he was not able to save her. He was trying to save her and it wasn't enough and she dies. That he was literally being spread too thin represented by his webbing and it snaps and she dies. It was a narrative representation that he can't do everything. If that happened in sa2 or in shadow's game this wouldn't have come up. Shadow was in a situation where he was not spread thin, he could have ran teleported...anything. Just didn't. Because the story needed to happen. And these are abilities he had at the time. That's a plot hole. Ian flynn talks about this on his podcast about silver. How he threw in lines because he needed to justify why silver doesn't just teleport everywhere or else it wouldn't make sense. The writer, of the comic about this series literally said the thing i'm saying about another character 3 weeks ago. There needed to be a justification in the plot as to why the character who could quickly solve a problem theoretically couldn't. That guy people want to write the games. That guy. You all have created an entire argument about shadow needing to be perfect and i'm saying " they could have threw in some text explaining that scene better" Like what is even being said here?
  10. Actually it can be a plot hole, if in this case there is no narrative justification for it happening and the thing to prevent it happening is either something the character normally does or doesn't do and them not doing that is significant in that moment. The character not doing something they normally do with no explanation so conveniently a plot point can happen. Espically in a situation that would call for it, is infact a narrative inconsistency. Whether it matters or not is up the viewer. If I may use an example, spiderman. Movie spiderman. So remember when peter lets the robber get away and that same robber gets uncle ben ken killed. Peter not stopping that robber, and the uncle been dying and the legendary line " great power comes with great responsibility ". He then learns , you can't just let injustice slide because it benefits you, because one day it may happen to you. If you can help people, help. Simple right. Peter didn't do something he would normally do, in his hubris, ben dies. So the question is , why didn't shadow run? You keep saying its a " mistake" but why would he make that mistake. There is literally no reason for him to make that mistake. He has no motivation to not run right now. He wants maria to live , he wishes to escape the gun wielding soldiers on his tail. The reason he's not running is because maria needs to die for the story to continue. There is no in universe reason. The script is on the ground and we can see it. This is a plot hole. Shadow is a character who in and out of universe is designed to go fast and kick ass. And he magically decided to not do it, unprompted, for no reason when his friend conveniently needed to die for the plot. Every explanation you and I could provide as to why he didn't. Is head canon, there is and never was explanation. That, is a plot hole. It just happened, because the story needed it to. I can fix it right now if you want, watch Maria because of her medical condition is actually rather fragile, and running really fast might hurt or kill her which is what shadow didn't want at the moment. Bam there you go. But that didn't happen, nothing happened, there is no reason. There is a gap in the story a inconsistency where the character designed to go fast, just decided he didn't want to. There is no reason for this, this is a plot hole. Doesn't matter, the story is still fun and engaging. And just because a story has 1 or 2 or however many plot holes doesn't mean ya can't enjoy it or even that its not good. I'm not into the " cinima sins " style of commentary where every plot hole is some giant flaw that needed to be pointed out. This didn't really. I have actually thought about it untill OP brought it up. But while we are here, it is a plot hole. But its one that just never mattered to anyone's enjoyment.
  11. I had something longer here but I don't care that much. Its a plot hole in a game for children. Sonic does this all the time. Pointing this out does not reduce a character to spreadsheets its a thread pointing out a weird narrative thing about a character that despite it everyone still very much enjoys. And i think its healthy and frankly more fun to admit and point out these plot holes instead of pretending this series about hedgehogs going fast was meticulously planned with every step. It wasn't , its a plot hole who cares. He coulda ran, but he didn't because they needed the girl to die for sad. That's it.
  12. One , I again I don't think this ultimately matters. Like I mentioned before, this is nonsensical whatever they thought was cool to add to his story. That said, there's a difference between say. Fighting with your friend over what to do with his giant green rock whilst your cousin makes off with it because you were too up your own ass to work with people. And not doing the one thing you do all the time, and are really good at and were literally built for to solve the problem that thing it can specifically solve. Like yeah people can make mistakes, and again ultimately this doesn't matter. But lets not pretend everytime something is off with shadow its " ok to make a mistake" No its a plot hole. It a plot hole because sa2 is filled with plot holes and they didn't think about it and they didn't expect you to. Its the same thing that happened in forces with silver. The reason that gets shit talked and not this is because the story around sa2 despite is flaws is great. But its a dang plot hole. A fun one, and one that ultimately doesn't matter because the story is effectively communicated, but that's what it is.
  13. The dudehas super speed though. And high durability. Before Sht. It was framed as shadow was in the pod he saw her die and got jetted off. But in his game they are just in a hall way, he could have legit just casually walked in front of her blocked the bullets with his body a power he demonstrated at the beginning of that game and that kind of would have been it. He also according that game at that time had enough powers to just easily fend them off. Edit. Hold on , he could have just lifted her up and carried her at super speed down the hallway. Ran back beat them up and then ran back to her. Forget all that other stuff. And iirc in that they just show up behind him. He wasn't running at super speed they just caught up. That entire scenario doesn't really make any sense ya'll look at this I just think its a weird plot hole because they wanted something dramatic and him seeing his only friend die was the thing they wanted to write about and didn't at the time think about the actual mechanics of how that works when the person running with said friends has all the powers to stop bullets. It similar to how knuckles is the last echidna and unless some tragedy happened in the last 15 years of his life that whipped out every echdina it actually makes no sense. Or how silver's entire future works. Just cool things to add on to the character not really thinking about it coming together. Its not really bad either this is an easily forgettable plot hole because your brain can just fill in blanks. Similar to knuckles parentage and silvers future.
  14. I mean he was. And that in shadow's game, he's attacking them in the flash back. Even if she isn't into it.
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