Regen reacted to Nepenthe in What's The Best Way To Introduce A New Anthro Character?
@Regen That's not the burden of proof that's been levied at people. People have instead been tasked with trying to defend the very continued existence of the extended cast in this topic, the Downsizing topic, and elsewhere for years, with the failure for doing so being dismissed as being unable to "let go" of something they like (no seriously, why would anyone ever do this?) and their character being given the presumption that they are useless and thus obligated to be scrapped. It's bollocks.
Fans of anyone who aren't the main four have to go through this dumbass dog-and-pony show of somehow proving that these characters (who by and large are not actually bound by in-universe restrictions from showing up in most of the plots anyway) "deserve" to show up like a normal cast member does. People are being charged with demonstrating some hypothetical amount of depth to their characters that the main four are never expected to have in order to show up themselves, with the textbook rebuttal being "well, I don't like that story idea so sorry" or "I don't think that story's worth telling."
(And that's a completely irrelevant rebuttal btw because the initial demand for an explanation doesn't actually hinge on a person's personal tastes. If you tell me to explain how Jet can appear in some theoretical plot and I do that, it doesn't fucking matter that you wouldn't want to see it. I fulfilled the criteria of your argument. So then the goalpost is been changed to "Well, you have to make up some story I like for me to accept the idea that this character should continued to be used," which is impossible because most people who dislike a character don't want to see that character again, meaning this is a fruitless argument to have because there's little to no ground to be yielded.)
In this example I'm being tasked with "proving" for some reason not only that Shadow can have a role, but that he will always have some life-altering story to tell when that's not the point. The point is to see him around being an appropriately-used, active agent on the plot like any other character who gets a free pass, not some damned literary exercise. If I fail at this utterly ridiculous task, the conclusion people on the other side of the argument will draw from that is that Shadow doesn't deserve to be in the games, which is ultimately whatever; if you don't want to see him again then fine. But if you're not applying that same standard to the other characters outside of hypothetical arguments, you're a hypocrite.
For example, no one around here actually charges Sega with axing Knuckles permanently even though, going by the logic of the arguments in play, he should have been thrown in the trash after S3&K or Adventure 1 not only due to the fact that he had two character arcs that ended, but because he's tied to an isolated floating landmass through his lame, self-imposed duty to guard a rock that hasn't been relevant in ages anyway. On top of that, ever since then he's been used in very meaningless ways and has basically been downgraded into "dumb tough guy" which was taken to its most logical and embarrassing conclusion in Boom. He is by all rights a candidate for deletion, but instead the debate is about how to fix him, how to get him off the island appropriately, or general disappointment and resignation that he's being used haphazardly. Going by people's logic, Knuckles needs to go away forever, or at least until they decide to use Angel Island and the Master Emerald again (and we can write some Andre Dubus-esque story about his morality or what-the-fuck-ever.) But no one makes this argument, and it's simply because they like him enough that they don't want to see him gone. So fuck anyone's "potential" argument; I like Shadow and don't want to see him gone too.
Now if that's what your personal argument is- that every character, no matter their popularity or status, should conform to the same high standards for inclusion- then great! You're at least logically consistent. I don't necessarily agree, but it's at least consistent. But the very nature of this argument in this thread and over the years hasn't been consistent, and that's why I'm against it so.
This isn't an argument in favor of throwing every character into every single game even if they won't have anything to do. My argument is that the low-ass threshold for the popular sidekicks to be considered usable should be the same low-ass threshold for the rest of the secondary cast to be considered usable, provided they weren't written as either being too far away like Blaze and Silver or one-shots like Chip and Gamma. I shouldn't have to prove to you, Regen, Diogenes, or anyone else that Shadow will always and forever have deep arcs of character to explore in order for him to have a shot at being used in a series that doesn't even require this level of writing by design (an impossible standard to prove and whose only logical conclusion will result in his retirement), especially when it's culturally accepted that someone like Tails doesn't even need a character arc to appear.
It is accepted that Tails can remain perfectly static from beginning to end- the same cute, smart-ass 8 year old boy we know and love- but simply be a helpful team member like in Heroes or Riders or an expository character like in Rush and Unleashed and still be considered appropriately utilized, without being threatened with calls for being scrapped because he didn't undergo a large change or make some huge impact every single time. The same should apply to everyone else. Shadow doesn't need to appear in a plot only when Sega can potentially explore the some deep, meaningful complication about his inner psyche. If they get an idea to do that, then that would be great; however, he can just as easily appear because he has a survival instinct and thus a vested interest in not getting his ass blown to kingdom come in whatever apocalyptic scenario is at hand, and from there he can either be useful as a team member, a rival, or simply just as another character in the proceedings who experiences the events from a different point of view. These are valid utilizations of cast members and they shouldn't be reserved just for whoever is your favorite or the most popular.
Again, I'm not saying I want every single cast member to show up all the time with nothing to do. I'm saying a secondary character with no strings attached doesn't need to fill out some lengthy audition form about why they have this grandiose human problem that warrants exploration to appear in a fucking Sonic game. They should appear if it's appropriate for them to do so and have some measurable effect on the plot's events.
Regen got a reaction from Myst in Downsizing
Sonic Generations is an excellent game. It has fantastic level design, easily better than everything after Sonic and Knuckles, for both Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic. Aside from the physics, Classic Sonic plays wonderfully. Modern Sonic's stages are a mix of linear boost levels and more open deliberate levels. All of Modern Sonic's stages are well-designed and satisfying. The bosses, whilst being shallow, are better than all of Sonics bosses in 3D. They actually have some punch. The alternate missions, combined with the unlocks and red rings are cute too.
The game does have a terrible story and godawful final boss though. The controls for Modern Sonic are also too rigid.
The game's easily an 8/10. I had the best time since Sonic and Knuckles with Generations and I will defend it until Kingdom Come!
Regen reacted to Wraith in Downsizing
Generations was pretty blatantly built with the story as an afterthought. Even by modern Sonic standards its pretty clear it wasn't on their mind during development. Classic Tails even feels like they just kinda slapped him in all the cutscenes after they got done.
Regen reacted to Strong Guy in Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!
Big is the perfect cameo character. Seriously, I loved finding him in places in SA2.
And I was ecstatic when I found he was back in secret rings with pretty much the same role.
Regen got a reaction from Rey Skywalker-Ren in Downsizing
It really is the case that it's difficult to argue a different point of view here when the majority of people here share the same opinion.
Let's talk about Classic Sonic here for a second. The fact that Classic Sonic is 'done' means absolutely nothing in the context of this thread because the friends are also completely and utterly irrelevant at this point. Digoenes pre-empted this before me but you answered him with an incredibly weak reply.
The friends aren't more relevant than Classic Sonic. Classic Sonic has featured in Generations and actually had a major role and was incredibly popular by almost everyone who played the game. That was four years ago, granted. Some of the friends have done absolutely nothing for almost ten years now. What has any friend other than Tails actually done since 06 and even he's just a token sidekick. There's Boom, but that's a different universe and I imagine you all hate the direction they took characters like Knuckles anyway. So yeah, actually Classic Sonic is way more relevant than the friends. Maybe we could pull in Boom Knuckles over Shadow though because he's got some relevance .
That's to not even talk about the fact that many people love Classic Sonic and don't give a flying fuck about Sonic's so called shitty friends. Generations became an instant talking point because Classic Sonic was in it, and the same would happen again if a new major Sonic title featured Classic Sonic. If Shadow was featured, for example, the general public would moan and roll their eyes.
In fact, if you want to play 'the company has moved on and is doing business' card you are the one who loses out. The purpose of scrapping characters is because, outside places like here with hardcore fans, everyone fucking hates them. Yeah, it is giving the giant middle finger to the fanbase but if we are going to play 'the company has moved on and is doing business' card then we really should just axe the friends. The amount SEGA would gain from the general public for annoying a small number of hardcore fans would be worth it in business terms. There's the possibility of fans being turned off for good but this is Sonic, that'll never happen. The fans here are loyal no matter what, especially with how they've virtually already given the middle finger in recent years.
I DO NOT WANT TO AXE THE FRIENDS AND DON'T PARTICULARLY WANT CLASSIC SONIC THE CHARACTER BACK
I put that in big letters so no one would miss it .
When I say 'Classic Sonic' I mean the gamestyle and not Classic Sonic as a character. I mean a 2D Sonic game with a AAA Budget made for Consoles and PC, not Classic Sonic as a character. And Sonic Team is capable of making Classic Sonic levels, Classic Sonic in Generations was more than proof of that. The Classic Sonic ship hasn't sailed, Sonic 4, as terrible as it was, is proof of how much a Classic Sonic game can sell. The demand is there, it's just never been properly met because SEGA makes baffling business decisions.
I refuse to look at fucking rom hacks for my wishes and I honestly can't see that as anything more than you trying to piss us off.
Here, go play Sonic World for your extended cast of friends fix:
Do you not see how absurd that statement is?! That game is impressive for an amateur project but it doesn't stack up to something professional. I don't want to be playing fucking romhacks, I want to play something that is has a professional seal.
Regen got a reaction from ZDozer in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
Some of us wouldn't consider that a good thing you know
That said, most people don't doubt Colours and Generations were good games. As for Lost World, it wasn't bad, it was just very flawed. In my opinion anyway, it's very divisive. I'd still say Lost World was decent, it's a 6/10. I think Sonic Team's going to do well with their next title to be honest.
It's not to be assumed though.
Regen reacted to Frosted Felix in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
If anyone here was mature enough they would change the topic.
Regen reacted to FriendBot in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
Pretty sure you could just make a Sonic Advance thread instead just for Advance 3.
Regen reacted to Nepenthe in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
SA3 discussion is banned for a reason and you guys have resoundingly proven why: you can't actually discuss it without acting like prats. Drop the tangent and get back to actually talking about what Sega PR's doled out.
Regen reacted to Wraith in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
When people say "I want Sonic Adventure 3" it literally just means they want a game like Sonic Adventure that doesn't suck ass. It's that simple. Why is this even an argument
Regen got a reaction from Writer's Blah in Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'
I think it's pretty funny that so many people here seem to be big fans of Adventure, going as far as being to be anxious of the success of a 2D Sonic game because the Adventure formula might be lost forever for it, but when I make a joke about Sonic Adventure 3 then I get shut down immediately as though I'm an idiot. Like, what?!
I'll go as far as to say Sonic Adventure 3 isn't even a stupid idea. It makes sense from a business sense, people would buy the fuck out of it and you all know it. Sonic Adventure 2 in particular is popular with two generations of gamers because of when it released. Critics would be sceptical, but they already are sceptical of a new Sonic title. They would treat it fairly if it was good.
Sonic Adventure 3 has become such a lost title people just laugh when it's brought up without thinking. If Sonic 4 can happen and sell as well as it did then you can bet Sonic Adventure 3 certainly can.
And I don't even like the Adventure games, I want a 2D Classic game, but I wouldn't be against Sonic Adventure 3. In fact, I welcome Sonic Adventure 3.
Regen got a reaction from MegasonicZX in Downsizing
It's a matter of moderation.
I'm vocally annoyed about a lot of what Sonic Team does, but I don't go fucking bananas that we aren't getting another 2D Classic Sonic Console Game. I don't go bashing people on the head for wanting more of a Sonic Adventure direction.
I don't mean to get into arguments with people so, if I did offend or upset anyone I'm sorry. I'm not the kind of person who sugar-coats everything. So if I did offend or upset anyone, sorry.
Regen got a reaction from Monkey Destruction Switch in Downsizing
The irony is I'd be totally down for a 2D console classic Sonic game and Sonic Adventure 3.
My friend once told me something that stuck with me that I think applies to this forum:
"We agree on 90% but focus on the 10% we disagree on".