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Blue Blood

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Blue Blood last won the day on April 11

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About Blue Blood

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    The happiest Sonic fan in the world.

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  1. I don't know who to blame for Sonic games typically being so bad and I would guess that a large part of it the corporate/executive side of SEGA demanding games out at certain times on restrictive budgets and forcing certain aspects. But Morio Kishimoto directed Secret Rings, Black Knight, Colours, Lost World and Forces. I don't think he's doing the series any favours either. The one decent game in the bunch, Colours, has become the poster child for everything wrong with the games nowadays. And even if pales in comparison to its direct predecessor and successor which had different directors. The dude needs to go.

    1. Crow the BOOLET

      Crow the BOOLET

      I know people have been talking about directors and other figures in the games' development and how they should go but...

      Who do you want instead? I really don't see anyone trying to make alternatives anywhere other than saying "burn the witch!"

    2. Soniman

      Soniman

      Don't necessarily agree with Colors being the worst in the "trilogy" but even considering that the that still one hit vs FOUR misses and he clearly has no idea how to iterate on the things he did well so get him out of here 

    3. Solister

      Solister

      Idk, not sounding much cliché, but I'd mostly blame media and/or pseudo-gamers who believe anniversary games are something obligatory or which gives the enterprise some nice status.

      As I crossed a post with this same subject today on Reddit, it is not like all games must be a celebration (despite they can) and especially have Classic Sonic + Green Hill being a must-have. Ok, Generations was cool, Mania, pretty good game but the concept is getting repetitive, Sonic Forces: WHY CLASSIC SONIC IS EVEN THERE?

      So yeah, first, I'd give Sonic Team as much time as they want to deliver a finished game, secondly, I don't mind if the game is a 20/25/30 anniversary game. Cool, add the badge before the game start, but put some new content. Sonic Adventure 2 was like that (Which was a sequel to an already ongoing 'franchise' and included a nice bonus Green Hill), Sonic Riders was like that, Sonic 4 followed the 20th anniversary hype, heck! Even Sonic '06 wins in this aspect.

      Hopefully, 35th, 40th and 45th aren't much a remarkable milestone.

    4. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      @Crow the BOOLET Change. Someone who's got different ideas about what the game should and shouldn't contain. Hiroshi Miyamoto directed Generations. 

      I know what you mean though. But my point is simply that Kishimoto has a pretty poor track record. I can't imagine doing an awful lot worse than what we currently have.

      @Soniman Colours has its up sides and certainly isn't bad, but I think set the precedent for everything that the series is currently doing wrong. It's the best of the bunch that Kishimoto directed, and the worst of the boost series minus Forces. That's subjective though, of course.

      Anything he did right in Colours seems almost to be a fluke considering what he did both before and after. Lost World was an attempt at something new that turned out to be a right old mess. And Forces was Colours-Generations, iterating only on the worst of each. I think Sean described Forces as "trying to make Starlight Carnival Acts 2 and 4 into a whole game".

    5. Supah Berry

      Supah Berry

      Hmm... Morio...

       

      1529740.jpg

      "Hoo hoo, eccellente..."

    6. Kuzu

      Kuzu

      Its probably extremely cynical to say this, but its based on history; even if they got someone new and brought fresh life into the series, its more than likely the same result will happen again. The game will start fresh and new and everyone will love it, but Sega will milk it dry without really improving upon it until we get sick of it and asked for the last good thing again. 

      I don't want to think like this, but I really have no reason not to. 

    7. Milo

      Milo

      @Kuzu And ideally, people with clout and power who actually want to stop this series' run-in of self-sabotage. They would realize the IP's management as a whole needs to be told to get out of the Sonic sandbox and do something else, so a different team can be brought in; and then actually get both actions done. That's what needs to happen if you actually want to tackle the roots of the problem instead of reach for temporary/band-aid solutions.

      But bad studio/IP direction seems to be the one thing this property and its publisher refuses to Never Let It Go (TM).

    8. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      I was looking into credits just the other day, cause I got into Billy Hatcher and I'm loving it, so I wanted to check who was behind it.

      Kishimoto definitely needs to go imo, I don't like any of the games he's directed. Not a shot at his drectorial abilities because all the products are solid technically speaking, they're all functional and polished games, but he's definitely not the one I would ilke to see in charge cause to me, he doesn't really understand what a Sonic game should be like.

      The Generations director apparently worked on M&S 2016 and then disappeared, I'm guessing he was one of the people who left SEGA, correct me if I'm wrong.

      I don't know who in that team is fit to direct a Sonic game atm, but I've been enjoying Billy Hatcher a lot, it's clunky the way you'd expect a 2005 Sonic Team game to be clunky, but it's fresh, unique, and honestly pretty solid all around, so I'd like to see Shun Nakamura in the directorial role, for once not tied to a disastrous unsalvageable project like 06, when he was called in at the last moment to put together whatever scraps Naka had left behind, and then his team was fractured once again so that Secret Rings could become a thing, or a project still tied to Kishimoto like Forces.

      Let the guy direct, the very few times he's done so, the games are unique little gems (Billy, Rythm Thief which is so cute, Samba de Amigo). Can't really be worse than whatever we're getting as of late and he seems to be very passionate about his games and ideas.

      I think Iizuka and Nakamura could be able to give us something decent if they team up.

      Wishful thinking, but I'd love for Hirozaku Yasuhara to come back and direct 3D Sonic, see what his vision would be like.

    9. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      Oh hello stranger 

    10. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      Thought I was kind of done with Sonic online discussion but bad habits die hard

    11. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      LOL

      So Nakamura also served as producer for Forces, which is the position held by Iizuka for all of the Sonic games from 2010 until Forces (Iizuka is now credited as producer for the entire series). I don't have high the highest opinions of him working on Sonic games, to be honest. Whilst yes we know that '06 was likely a mess before he took over as director, what's Forces' excuse? The producer is the one in charge of managing the team project scheduling, planning, management etc. Forces was cobbled together in a very short amount of time by a small team of staff inexperienced with Sonic. Whilst we don't know what hand was dealt to him by SEGA, Forces does not feel like a well managed project. 

    12. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      Fair, I don't know if that's the case for you as well, but in my mind the terms "Director" "Producer" are not entirely clear when it comes to games.

      In the case of movies, for intsance I know that the director handles the whole thing, and the producer is there to give general directives on the product as a whole, where they want it to go, kind of a "yes" or "no" man, which is the position Iizuka holds for the whole franchise, as I've come to understand.

      The director on the other hand is the one who's first hand handling the development, they decide the way the shots are framed, they are usually writers as well if it's an auteur movie, they give directives to the actors, they're very involved, whereas producers are just on set and handle money and final decisions.

      So a game director is there to decide how game should play, feel and be designed, I think.

      If that's the case, then Nakamura hasn't really had a fair shot at Sonic, even with Forces it was still Kishimoto.

      What I like about the Nakamura games is that they are centered around one single game mechanic, and the gameplay organically spawns from that single game mechanic.

      So, for instance, Billy, the whole idea behind that game is "you're carrying this egg, bigger than you" and everything, the movement, the combat, the puzzles, is about you carrying the egg. It never strays away from that, and it builds on it, whereas every Kishimoto game has always had some form of minigame/gimmick in order to add variety, instead of building on its central mechanics.

      Also I love rythm games, and if Nakamura would give me a music based Sonic stage a-la Rayman Legends, I would build him a statue. I just like his style.

    13. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      Yeah, I'm never all that clear on what the roles of director and producer always mean. The director is the one who designs the game and the producer is the one who manages the resources for doing so, I think? Director says "I want to make this game" and the producer says "make what you can with this".

    14. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      To my understanding, yes.

      If that's the case then, imagine being Nakamura, you're put in charge of being a producer of a Sonic game, something you've never done before out of the 06 disaster, the director comes up and says "hey I have this tried and true template that we used a while ago, the game was reviewed very well and sold incredibly well even if it was a Wii exclusive, sounds good?"
       

    15. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      Haha! I don't want to pretend to sound like I know what I'm talking about because I really, really don't. But no matter which way you slice it, Kishimoto's ideas for Sonic games have been ick. In this interview, he talks about wanting the war-time setting for Forces because that's what was popular on PS4/XB1 with their more mature audience. And I think in al old print interview back around the Wii era, he talks about wanted to simplify Sonic controls and that why we ended up with SatSR and SatBK being totally on-rails. That design philosphy definitely carried through into Colours and Forces with the games often feeling like on-rails experience where the player only really needs to press up/right and "action" for much of the game.

    16. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      That much is true lol. Saw that interview again just yesterday and yeah, the man and I can't agree.

      I think there's good change coming tho, I'm optimistic about whatever they're going to announce next!

    17. Kuzu

      Kuzu

      I think Kishimoto does deserve credit for making Colors, the game that earned a lot of good will for thr series back, which was probably why they kept him on for LW and Forces.

      But man, I'm almost convinced it was a fluke; every game he's directed besides Colors has been a mixed bag. So it leads to me think he just got lucky with the timing that Sonic Colors came out in.

       

    18. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      I'm not optimistic... but I'm not pessimistic either? I'm a bit neutral right now. Back in 2017 before Forces got announced I was feeling like I was expecting something bold and different from SEGA. Mania was kind of that (it was more nostalgia, but it was made by indies) and Forces looked like it might have been that until Classic Sonic showed up halfway through the teaser trailer. After the tepid critical reception that Forces go and the lengthy downtime, maybe we'll get something interesting, But I just can't say at this point. I'll be optimistic or pessimistic when we actually see something. In the meantime, I'll just be curious.

      @Kuzu The problem with Colours is that as far as gameplay is concerned, it's a trimmed down Unleashed. Obviously it cuts the secondary gameplay style out entirely so we'll accept that as the good decision it was. But the levels in Colours are more similar to Unleashed Wii than Unleashed HD and Generations (with Forces later following in the footsteps of Colours as well. Colours added the Wisps which were a mixed bag of "kinda fun" and "just there". Nothing has pushed forward since. Lost World tried, but was a huge mess and got back-pedalled on hard. Kishimoto took the shaky foundations of Unleashed and removed a lot from it to make Colours. He streamlined it and made it into something much more stable. I wouldn't say it's better, but it deserves credit for sure because it got the series back on track. He's failed it to on build it ever since, and has done much worse things with it.

      Also Colours was preceded by SatSR and SatBK and followed by Lost World and Forces. Yeah it definitely looks more and more like a fluke.

    19. Kuzu

      Kuzu

      So you're an optimist but also a realist :V

    20. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      @Kuzu Sonic is gone, Amy Kuzu. 

    21. Sonikko

      Sonikko

      I feel like the issue with Forces is that *it does* build up on Colours.

      Kishimoto has basically ctrl+c ctrl+v most of the level design from Colours to Forces, there's quite a few sections which are basically the same thing.

      Also I noticed he wants to give Sonic tropey stage types like the NSMB series.

      For instance, the interior of Starlight Carnival and Egg Gate look so similar and use mostly the same gimmicks, and there's a few examples like that in Colours, Lost World and Forces.

      Even LW which is a bit different from the rest, still relies on the same foundation, all things considered.

       

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