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Kuzu the Boloedge

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Kuzu the Boloedge last won the day on February 7

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About Kuzu the Boloedge

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    It doesn't matter who I am, I'm me.
  • Birthday 05/09/1993

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    Vadeo games, Animu, The piano, Biking, tvtropes(fuck that site).
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    Male
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    United States
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    Za Warudo

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    djgreen5993
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    BlackYakuzu94
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    Boodedge
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  1. >People accusing Mania's success as "Classic pandering" 

    *Sigh* I wonder when are we gonna realize that people like well made and polished games?

    1. ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      Who the fuck said that, lol? You'd have to blind to conflate Mania with shit like Sonic 4, classic Sonic in Generations and Forces, or Green Hill iconography plastered fucking everywhere.

    2. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      Mania kind of was nostalgia pandering; it fits the trend we've been seeing since 2010, except this time experience was authentic and aimed to built upon the Classics instead of lazily saying "hey remember green hill and fat sonic" and leaving it at that. It was successful because it was a bloody good game by its own merits AND held up as a wonderfully nostalgic experience.

    3. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      @ThePrinceOfSaiyans Mostly modern Sonic fans that want something like that for 3D games. Crazy I know, but these are the people Sega are listening to...for some reason.

    4. ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      I'm not sure what that'd look like, lol. Mechanically the post classic games are all over the place. 

    5. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      On some level, Forces was really trying to channel the Adventure to '06 era spirit. It tried to have a more eventful plot, character development, serious/dark moments (Sonic is dead etc), a rock theme song with vocals, and gave us three characters to play as work many more supporting. It was a weak attempt that got so much wrong on just about every level, but it's pretty clear scary they were going for.

    6. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      Generations is probably the most polished 3D Sonic game ever...but it gets ignored because "nostalgia pandering" lol. 

    7. Tornado

      Tornado

      It kinda was. It was exceedingly well made and earnest this time compared to the previous times they did it, but it still was.

    8. Wraith

      Wraith

      Mania is like the safest possible bet you can take as far as Sonic goes to the point where it's baffling that it didn't exist before now, lol. It's quite literally just what the most narrow minded side of the fanbase wanted.

      It's still a very, VERY solid game, one of the best Sonic games ever made, but I don't have a problem acknowledging that side of it too.

    9. ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      ThePrinceOfSaiyans

      Pandering has an inherently negative connotation, implying exploitation. Sonic Mania was a passion project, so to call it pandering would be inaccurate I feel.

    10. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      @Tornado It's funny when you say "compared to the previous times" because it implies that Mania was a turning point, when Forces was announced at the same time release only shortly afterwards yet is probably the worst offender.

    11. Bobnik

      Bobnik

      I mean, the game still kinda is a big nostalgia pandering, and it did leave a sour taste when we got both Green Hill zone and Chemical Plant zone again, but writing the success off purely cuz "lol pandering" is kinda dumb. The game is good, people like good games, it's simple as that.

       

      That said tho, I'm kinda tired of this pandering when they go "remember 90s?! Remember Green Hills?!" or w/e, even if it was authentic (which Mania was, I won't deny that). This overreliance on nostalgia pandering is (to me) one of the reasons why the franchise just completely lost whatever identity it had, and Mania didn't really convince me otherwise. But that's me going off in a tangent, so oops.

      Anyway, yeah, tired of SEGA's overreliance on 90s nostalgia, but Mania is a good game, hence why it was successful.

    12. Wraith

      Wraith

      I mean a lot of things pander. Sonic specifically has tried to cash on on trends so many times over the years that to nail this one game for pandering like all of the others were bastions of artistic integrity is a little disingenuous to begin with.

    13. JezMM

      JezMM

      Quote

      Mania is like the safest possible bet you can take as far as Sonic goes to the point where it's baffling that it didn't exist before now, lol. It's quite literally just what the most narrow minded side of the fanbase wanted.

      @Wraith To be fair Sonic 4 was this, Sonic Team just didn't really discover until they tried to make one that they don't actually... know how to lol.

    14. TheOcelot

      TheOcelot

      Fans accusing Mania's success as classic pandering is really dumb, but SEGA is pretty much responsible for this attitude because they're constantly using classic stages (trying to simulate classic gameplay) in their recent games. Mania is awesome and got a metacritic score of about 86. However, it if wasn't for the constant need to keep bringing back Green Hill and other classic zones then I think Mania would have got an even higher score, but some reviewers weren't happy to see GH & Chemical Plant return yet again.

      #NoMoreGreenHill

    15. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      I'm gonna argue against the "Classic pandering" debate. 

      Because Sonic is not the only series to do this. LOTS of games are riddled with throwbacks to older games. New Donk City and the buildup to it is a blatant call back to the original Donkey Kong game for instance. 

       

      Like all things, it's execution. The reason Sega gets shit for "nostalgia pandering" is because they just throw in a Green Hill zone and just leave it at that, which is the laziest possible way they can do it.

      I don't mind Mania's classic pandering because it's at least creative with it, combining old level tropes to create new ones. Like having Act 2 of Chemical Plant with elements from Wacky Workbench. 

       

      It's not the Nostalgia itself, it's what you do it and Sega being lazy with it is basically their MO at this point. 

    16. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      New Donk City is something entirely different. That's one small part of an entirely new game that creates something new using several retro (and often forgotten) motifs. Now Mario may do the whole 8bit crap too much and NSMB for very old, very fast, but Classic Sonic's resurgence had been cynical, corporate and lazy outside of Mania.

       

    17. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      @Blue Blood You just proved my point lol.

      They made something new out of something old, which is what I'm saying they should be doing lol. Hell, I'd argue Generations was somewhat more unique when classic is in 2D interpretations of modern levels. THAT's being original and probably the most effort Sega put in to his return.

    18. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      it'd be nice if we could reach a point where the classic aesthetics and overall identity can be seen as a legitimate artistic choice rather than "pandering"

      but it'd also be nice if we could have world peace and jetpacks

    19. Wraith

      Wraith

      I'll see it as an artistic choice when they approach it with more genuine interest for it's unique flair than checkerboards and blocks. I give the artistic nuance of those games more credit than that. 

    20. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      In a perfect world, classic and modern could co-exist.

      But this isn't a perfect world. 

    21. Tornado

      Tornado

      It will be a legitimate artistic choice when it uses it first and foremost to do its own thing rather than as a way to just suck off the Genesis games. Mania had parts where they did that, but they were indeed only parts.

    22. Yeow

      Yeow

      What exactly is the definition of "pandering" people are using in this status?

      When you're saying certain games "pander" to people, are you actually saying they appeal to people in the most basic desires or through self-serving interests (which are two actual definitions of the word)?

      Or are we using it to denigrate anything made for and sold towards a specific audience (and judging from other examples mentioned, anything that isn't something original/new)?

      Is Mania actually another style of Sonic game that happens to have classic elements thrown on top of it to get classic fans on board?

      Conversely, is Mario Odyssey inherently being a sandbox Mario game mean its pandering towards fans of Mario 64 and Sunshine?

    23. Wraith

      Wraith

      Let me put it this way. Why would a new 2D Sonic game need to crib from the older games as hard as Mania does? When have the classic games been known to do that? 

      The decision was made to keep the game within a low budget and a short dev time while keeping it marketable. It's a strategic decision moreso than an artisitc one. From the sound of it there had to be an internal push for the game to even get this much which is baffling to me since you'd think this would be a safe bet. It's one of the least risky ways a new classic game could come to exist. 

      This doesn't make it a bad game, but it makes it less interesting than a fresh one potentially could have been. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this. 

      Putting it another way: imagine if this was another franchise. NSMB  is a much more dramatic reinvention of 2D Mario than Sonic Mania is and it's still getting shit for being unambitious. What's surprising or unfair about Sonic Mania catching that label? 

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