Kuzu

I know nothing about YT (nor really want to) and while I agree with what you're saying, I don't think it's always quite that simple.

Even from a viewer's perspective, I can't tell you how many channels I've unsubscribed from due to them no longer covering the content I cared about. I'd imagine that a lot of YTers rather not see their numbers drop drastically when they're just finding success like that.

That being said, the most successful YTers I've seen are those that can tackle a wide range of topics and just generally have the personality to back it up.

Though at the same time, I think it's also really up to viewers to be able to filter out the content they want or don't want. If a channel doesn't meet your needs there's no real need to obsess over them. The "Not Interested" button is your friend.

It really is a 'depends on the situation' kind of deal.

If I ever do videos, it'd be video essays for myself only without the strings of being a creator.

I think you can focus on a specialist subject, but you need to be creative in your own right as well if you want to have a constant output, or build up a level of quality and trust with your audience that allows you to only make content when you deem it worthy of being made, rather than just for the sake of it.

That's why when I made my Youtube channel, I made it into a movie or TV show reviewing channel where I can review any kind of movie or TV series that's being released at the moment or has caught my interest.  Therefore, I will always have content on my channel because there will always be a new movie or TV series coming out every year that I can talk about on my channel.  The problem sometimes with doing a channel based on one franchise is that you don't know if the franchise is going to keep going or if there's any news regarding the franchise being released.

But then again, it ultimately comes down to what your audience wants and what you want to do with your channel.

Haven't checked in a long while on Jwittz, how is he doing?

If you are going to pick one franchise, it needs to be something with consistent content to cover. Sonic just doesn't release frequently to do that unless you actually dedicate yourself to covering stuff like the comics and the mobile game

@JezMM Yeah, I'll only watch a channel full of TV episode long videos about a specific subject if the information is well researched and either not easily searchable online or presented in a way that ties information from various sources in an engaging, memorable way. Cybershell posts rarely, but when he does, he generally knows what he's talking about in a way that distinguishes him from the glut of other Sonic commentators. False Swipe Gaming is also interesting because he often brings up unexpected uses for various Pokemon, but the nature of competitive Pokemon means even his videos get repetitive after a while.

I'd honestly hate myself if I only focused on one thing. I have a ton of interests and I like to talk about them all.

@Your Vest Friend it’s more in lines of the topic at hand. Like doing video essays is cool but soley focusing on 1 topic all the time is bad. 

The Deadly Six could almost all do with redesigns. Zazz and Zeena are fine, the rest are not. I've no desire to see the Zeti ever again and don't have any reason to think that they'd ever get redesigned, but I'd rather see more of Zavok than Infinite. And all of them together could get a second wind, I guess? I dunno. Something something "more potential" blah blah.

Infinite served his purpose as a one-off villain, who's origins couldn't even be kept consistent in the one hand he's been in. Was he created by Eggman, or was he part of a band of never-seen mercenaries that Eggman hired? Heck, why would Eggman give the Phantom Ruby to Infinite instead of use it himself? I honestly think that a Infinite's story is messy and full of holes that it's best swept under the carpet and forgotten about. I don't like his character type at all.

I just find it very Odd how the Fandom collectively loathes these characters for...idk being generic? At least it gives some variety in enemies I guess.

Just bring back Nack 

i still feel the opposite. there's not much to the d6, sure, but a bunch of weird troublemaking assholes isn't the worst thing for a series to have on hand. infinite, on the other hand, is just such a disaster of a character, no less shallow than the d6 but given an unearned sense of gravitas and more details that don't actually add anything of value.

The Sonic series has always tried to give its characters more gravitas and importance, as far back as Tails in the second game; does it always stick the landing when it tries that? No. But there's an attempt at trying to make these characters into more than generic video game props. 

Unless you just really cannot stand the execution of how the series does things, I don't see how having a bunch of generic video game bosses is somehow superior. It's "safer", but its also way more boring and that's just not how Sonic does things.

The Deadly Six just fly right into the face of how characters have been handled, yet they keep pushing them in the series without really fixing that. 

At least take Blue Blood's suggestion and give them a redesign, and a story. SOMETHING to make me care about them. 

I'd rather they try and fail to get you to care about a character than just...not even trying to begin with. 

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The Sonic series has always tried to give its characters more gravitas and importance, as far back as Tails in the second game; does it always stick the landing when it tries that? No. But there's an attempt at trying to make these characters into more than generic video game props. 

And I'm not saying they shouldn't, but they have to actually write and portray the character in a way that the audience buys into it, or it backfires. forces is like if someone wrote fanfiction and put their shitty oc in it just expecting everyone to be as enamored with them as they are; despite the volume of attention given to infinite nothing about it makes me give a shit, he's just an overpowered edgelord with a backstory that barely makes sense, and the more they tried to push him as a big deal the less i cared because it was all just smoke and mirrors. the d6 at least are presented as more in line with how they actually are, just a bunch of asshole monsters, unpretentious wacky bad guys; they, for the most part, deliver on what they promise.

and i'm not saying the d6 are the way every sonic character should be handled, just that it's okay for not everything to be hyped up as the hottest shit, that you can have your nack the weasels and your babylon rogues and your rough and tumbles and they can be important and worthwhile characters, and that's better than a character who's all hype and no substance no matter how much you want the hype to be real.

@Diogenes They were very blatantly trying to hype up the Deadly Six as the next thing, there's literally no way you can deny that. They're all over the advertising of Lost World, they're on the front of the box art, and while it's limited to Zavok, keep showing up in subsequent media. 

They're not just some secondary characters who just existed, Sega tried very hard to turn them into a new big threat on par with Eggman, but never bothered to give them a story worth giving a shit. 

They're even more egregious than Infinite, because there's not even an attempt. I already admitted several times that Infinite was botched as all hell, but we at least know how he came into existence and what his motivations are. 

The Deadly Six don't even have THAT. We don't know why they're evil, or what their background even is. If that's not a big deal to you fine, but they're not just some secondary background characters that you can just ignore like  the Chaotix or Cream. Sega very clearly wants us to care about them, otherwise they wouldn't keep pushing them as they have been doing. 

Zavok was in Team Sonic Racing, while Cream, Espio, and Charmy were not. That should tell you right there where Sega's priorities are. They're trying to push him as a major figure, but haven't addressed the fundamental problem with him. 

People pretty clearly care about Infinite because he has an actual story surrounding him, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for him to make a return. 

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They were very blatantly trying to hype up the Deadly Six as the next thing, there's literally no way you can deny that. They're all over the advertising of Lost World, they're on the front of the box art, and while it's limited to Zavok, keep showing up in subsequent media. 

they were a bit overhyped in the advertising but in the game itself they're simply not presented in the same way as infinite or mephiles or black doom or...whoever. lost world doesn't go into their backstory or deep into their motivations because they're not really the point. And I still don't think infinite's conflicting and hole-riddled origins or his absolute paper-thin motivation do anything to put him above them. hell the zeti taking over eggman's shit as revenge is already a better, clearer motivation than infinite's "i got beat up so now i'm gonna be extra edgy" anyway.

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Zavok was in Team Sonic Racing, while Cream, Espio, and Charmy were not. That should tell you right there where Sega's priorities are. They're trying to push him as a major figure, but haven't addressed the fundamental problem with him. 

They needed another villain for the villain team, meanwhile they had an overabundance of heroes for the hero teams. I think you're overestimating how much importance they've given him.

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People pretty clearly care about Infinite because he has an actual story surrounding him, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for him to make a return. 

sounds like a way to get more garbage

For the record we don't know the "Why" for any major Sonic villians reasons for being evil. Eggman, Doom, Mephilies, yes even Infinite who was always evil even before becoming what he is so it's really not a big deal 

@Diogenes If you don't agree fine, I'm just making a point; you acknowledge that people care more about Infinite than they do the Deadly Six in spite of their issues. 

You should give a bit more thought on why that's the case beyond "lol Sonic fans have shit taste" to justify opinions that don't align with yours. 

Doom sucks as much as Infinite, they are such depressing villains IMO. There is a bit more energy to the six, despite them being lazy assholes too. The fact that they six, is both a great thing, because they are a team and this aspect should be an advantage, but six is too much, there will never be enough screentime to do them justice.

Edit: And yeah, no need to explain "why they are evil", Zavok is a certified villainous strategist, Zazz is a psycho, Zeena is a queen-wannabe, Master Zik is fucking arrogant, Zomom is just dumb and selfish, Zor is sadistic. They have awful personalities. A minimal backstory would be nice though, without explaining the evil part, that is unnecessary, as is the fact that they "have to be" Eggman's minions.

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If you don't agree fine, I'm just making a point; you acknowledge that people care more about Infinite than they do the Deadly Six in spite of their issues. 

You should give a bit more thought on why that's the case beyond "lol Sonic fans have shit taste" to justify opinions that don't align with yours. 

alright, they have bad taste and they're furries

^As an Infinite fan I can confirm this

colors is simple and relatively uncontroversial. unleashed has the werehog.

Yeah, kinda wished it was a Boost Trilogy remaster (with all DLC).

I also wonder why they didn't remaster more than just one game.  I would have loved it if they also remastered Sonic Generations as well.

@Diogenes And Sega re-released Banana Blitz, so that excuse doesn't hold water. 

It's going to be the only game that isn't available in any way currently unless you own the original hardware. That sticks out no matter how you feel about Unleashed. 

The more I think about it the more annoyed I am at how barebones this decision seems to be. Like bloody hell, Colors getting an HD port is good but, in a vacuum, it’s depressing af. Just get as many games as you can available on current hardware. Get the adventure games and heroes on these storefronts. Pack Unleashed, Colors, and Gens into one package and get them back out there. Hell, most of the classic games aren’t even widely available these days on anything other than PC (or most other of these fucking games too).

This heel turn they’ve done against re-releasing these games over the last decade is one of the many, many reasons that honestly have me pretty much tuned out to this franchise’s future. If they can’t even be bothered to keep up with titles that fans have shown, time and time again, a clear demand for, then what hope is there for their next main release?

They can’t even do the bare fucking minimum anymore.

I mean... the most likely answer is they didn't want to do three times as much work.  Remastering a game is not necessarily as straightforward as you might think under the hood.

You know the fact that they can't be bothered to put in the extra amount of work for their flagship franchise is so fucking annoying. Nintendo are shit too, but they at least released THREE games. 

Sega take laziness and cutting corners to new levels and it really just makes me not want to fuck with this franchise anymore because of it.

Tbh, Forces has made it clear that Sonic Team isn't particularly good at what they do... I'd kinda rather they focus on one good port than stretch themselves thin.  Though I am concerned that if Unleashed isn't getting re-released as part of a boost trilogy collection, it probably isn't getting re-released at all.

Yeah the best way to move Unleashed would have been to stuff it in the trunk of a car Colors and Gens were driving. I think it'd still do well enough on it's own to justify releasing, but why not do all 3? It would be a great offer and maybe it'd offset them all being a little on the short side.

Agreed on both counts.

We'll be lucky to get 1080p & 60fps.

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I'm almost positive Sega are expecting the general goodwill for Colors will carry it and completely ignore the fact that it's not 2010.

They've been living off of that goodwill for ten years with diminishing returns to be fair.

Doesn't hurt to pull out the ol Wii. I say that the game is actually really really great, but has some really blocky platforming sometimes, and also recycles a lot of content to pad out the game.

>Sonic fans
>move on

lol

Just let people enjoy the game as they please.

@Jovahexeon The Undyne No

Then you have become the very thing that you swore to destroy.

I REJECT MY HUMANITY, JOVA!!!!

KUZUUUUUUUUU!!!!

If I was a publisher I wouldn't hire him either 

It's more like this:

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Mvm_wave_lose07.wav

Karma tends to be a just mistress.

That's what he did....?

I thought he was faking or just got over it.

No, he went completely insane after Sonic beats him one time too many.

Or rather - Eggman had this belief that he could've crushed the Freedom Fighters at any point, that it was all a game to him, and he'd grown bored of it. He finally razes Knothole to the ground and kidnaps everyone in Eggman Empire, and humiliates Sonic with his ultimate armour. 

However, when Sonic and co turned the tables on him, it began breaking Eggman. Eggman began to realise it wasn't a game, and his victory was never guaranteed. What he believed was a mercy towards Sonic was in actuality - a legitimate fight, and Eggman couldn't handle it.

From Issues 175-200, Eggman was slowly losing his mind, until one more defeat by Sonic's hand was enough to drive him over the edge and break him entirely.

Eggman later reasoned himself back to insanity by realising Sonic has some kind of "chaos" factor around him. Something that enables Sonic to come back from the jaws of defeat, and thus Eggman decides to plot his victories around Sonic instead. Performing the Genesis Wave so Mobius would be susceptible to the roboticiser again, and when Sally was roboticised, he began systematically breaking the Freedom Fighters to hurt Sonic himself.  

@Ryannumber1gamer Kinda makes me wonder if there was going to be a bigger thing regarding Sonic's "chaos factor" had the reboot not happened. Mogul hints that there's just something about Sonic that he can't beat so he was content to wait for Sonic to die and just poke him from time to time.

It's difficult to say IMO. On one hand, I feel like Ian definitely could've been going somewhere with that, if only to explain why Sonic can never lose (as mandated by SEGA, anyways) - plus it would also clean-up some hand-waved things in the past (IE - Sonic surviving the Ultimate Annihilator, and perhaps the chaos factor comes from the billionth power ring?).

On the other hand, part of me also kind of just wishes it's an excuse. Eggman's ego was so huge that he just can't accept that Sonic and the FF are legitimately strong enough to put up a fight against him. That would mean that if he couldn't just crush them whenever he feels like, then Sonic was better than him.

I see it absolutely in character for Eggman that he straight up can't accept that maybe Sonic is just a legitimate challenge and equal to him, if not possibly stronger. Thus, Eggman just makes up the chaos factor to give himself an excuse to keep going and to will himself back to sanity. That in his own insanity, he just decided "sonic wins because chaos and forces of nature" and thus gets to shift the blame of his defeats onto some unknown entity instead of his own skill.

While I like a lot of Ian's stuff, this plotpoint doesn't always jive with me. Sonic's turnabout in Eggman Empire works because Sonic was at his lowest point, with everything he fought for destroyed and lost, and only himself to blame for it, and he still picks himself back up and doesn't give up, no matter how badly things look. 

And he also legitimately outsmarts Eggman as well by turning Eggman's own flaws against him - Eggman is too egotistical and confidant, so much so that he only ever regarded Sonic as a challenge and underestimated everyone else. By having the FF, Chaotix, and his friends backing him up, they absolutely demolish Eggman's "ultimate" mech.

It's also worth noting that Eggman's defeat there was entirely his own fault too. Snively was trying to warn him for multiple minutes on end that Nicole had rerouted his teleport frequency, and Eggman was too busy snarking on Sonic to listen. Even with later defeats like getting his empire demolished by Enerjak, Dimitri had attempted to warn him he couldn't contain that power, and Eggman refused to listen.

I don't really think it's fair to chalk up Sonic's victories to some unknown force of nature giving him a win button. A lot of Eggman's defeats during 160-200 happened because of Eggman's own arrogance, and Sonic's never give up attitude and quick-thinking.

I feel like that's what it would have been building to, because Sonic gives a similar speech towards Scourge. 

That no matter how hard he tried, he could never beat Sonic and effectively had to cheat using his Super form to get one over on him. 

It was kind of consistent thing in Archie for Sonic's enemies to try and break him emotionally, only to get it flipped back on them because of the simple fact, Sonic can't be broken. And Sonic is sure as hell aware of that, in that no matter how many times he get knocked down he'll get right back up to finish the fight.

Honestly, this early in the game, I think it's a smart move that they're sticking to fundamentals and establishing what IDW Sonic is before they start shaking hands with other series.

How long was MLP or Transformers before it got its first crossover?

I'd be quick to say SEGA are shy about crossovers like that, but then again they let him in LEGO Dimensions

I'm fine with it, but the Mutant Town stuff in current IDW TMNT would mix in so well with Sonic.

I guess since IDW Sonic is still relatively new, even though it's been 3 years, they probably wanted to fully establish the series first before they throw them in with other characters.

I don’t think the “it’s relatively new” is a good argument at this point given that when TMNT had crossovers 3 years within its lifespan as well.

TMNT was included in the second "Infestation" event five issues in so it's not a matter of needing to establish or prove itself.

Yeah, it's not a matter of others have done it sooner just saying it's a good practice to hold off.

The amnesia/clone plot makes a lot more sense from that context, yeah. Gives new players something to latch onto about his character that isn't linked specifically to the Ark or Maria and Gerald. 

Or shadow was just really really popular and thry just wanted to hastily bring him back 

I think it was moreso because he quickly became a fan favourite, which Sonic Team didn’t expect, so they had to bring him back since he was way too marketable to stay dead.

@Soniman They already had plans on keeping him around long before his popularity took off. 

No developer should care about the "optics" of an idea if they have a great one. Modding hack and slash combat into secret rings could hardly be called that, but I'd hate for something as shallow as the potential initial buzz around a game to be guiding development so much. Games have a shelf life for so much longer than that, and that long gestation period after release is when it'll become apparent what an idea's true value is.

I'm in two minds about considering the optics. It's been a long time since Sonic Team have had any truly great ideas. Like... It's been a loooooong time. If you do as Sonic Team have done and starve the audience of quality products and just give them half-baked ideas that step further and further away from the original concept... The optics are important. When people are already fed up with not getting what they want, they're not going to react well to something that doesn't capture their interest. But on the flipside, yes you can judge things entirely by their own merits too. 

Like I said on Twitter the problem wasn’t the ideas it was just the quality of the games. Unfortunately a lot of people were burnt out.

The Werehog is still a stupid idea tho. 

I don't really feel the need to go to bat for the 2000's games anymore but in the same vein I can't see how anyone who actually liked the original series of Sonic games can support the direction they went afterward. You don't create a game like Sonic the Hedgehog by focus testing everything to death and constantly catering to fandom whining.

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The Werehog is still a stupid idea tho. 

In all honesty I feel like the Werehog could very well have worked if it were more Spiderman and less God of War, focused more on the stretching and swinging than anything else. As far as designing only to jump on a bandwagon though, without care for their own brand recognition, like most pre-Colours titles? Absolutely, THAT was stupid. Literally nobody asks for God of War in a Sonic game because anyone who wants to play God of War can just play God of War.

As silly an idea it sounds to have Sonic with a sword, considering he achieves the same effect with his spin attack, the idea could work if it was executed well... But it wasn't.

Using the sword literally kills all forward momentum, pulling you to a stop to use the game's gimmick, when the point of the game is to complete levels as fast as possible.

Something like Sonic as a werewolf is just a bad idea outright, because beat-em-up action is so antithetical to what is expected from a Sonic game, regardless of how good the gameplay is (it's just average, but some combos are fun and creative).

Sonic Team were throwing things at the wall in the 2000s, trying to keep Sonic with the modern trends of gaming when Sonic stands perfectly fine on his own.

I'm honestly at a point where I legitimately feel like the franchise has run its course lol.

Nobody liked it when it experimented, and now we've reached a point where it doesn't do ANYTHING anymore, and nobody but the most vocal of fans even seem to give a shit.

Like, I am legitimately wondering what this series even has to offer anymore beyond nostalgic memories from three decades ago.

I'm calling it for what it is; we're still incredibly tainted by the 2000's and this series will just continue to stagnate because it's too afraid of doing anything anymore, ironically making things just as bad as before.

I've never felt such an underlying amount of apathy for a series I once held in high regard.

Much like the team based gameplay, Sonic Team really tried and make that "stop and do combat" model for Sonic games work and after repeated failures and black knight being a critical and financial failure finally convinced them to knock it off, it's really up to you if the Sonic Team that only had bad ideas is better then the Sonic Team with no ideas we have now really 

maybe sonic can try being sonic again

that seemed to work pretty well

It can do new things, and it has and likely will still continue to do so. Sonic Team just needs the awareness of how to do those new things right.

The Avatar in Sonic Forces is a good idea executed pretty decently, and the parkour in Lost World is a great idea for Sonic that just needs fine tuning. Classic Sonic in Generations 100% worked for an anniversary game, and the Wisps in Colours offered fun twists and ideas to be used in level design.

It's a matter of finding ways to expand upon the established gameplay rather than throwing in new things with little regard or care.

You can acknowledge an idea is good, while decrying its execution. 

This isn't a binary choice where because the end product was bad that means the idea was bad and should never be revisited 

That thought process is exactly why we're stuck with this lifeless husk of a franchise.

If you're fine with the franchise as it is right now, then hey congrats, the series is exactly how people want; simple and devoid of any substance. 

@Blacklightning I think being more DMC inspired would have been better. Since it the fast pace action suits Sonic’s style more. 

Please try to take note of everything we say.

Sonic Lost World isn't a good game, but the idea of Sonic using parkour to navigate his environment goes hand in hand with his running. It's a good idea, just executed a bit poorly and clunky. Makes it worth revisiting rather than throwing out entirely, much like how Colours revisited the daytime stages of Unleashed rather than throwing it out because the overall game it was introduced in was poor.

I think part of the problem is that at its core, the series' issues are a result of Sega's notoriously poor management, but we end up arguing over the finished games because we don't have that much insight into the development process other than hearsay (which doesn't paint the company in a good light). I mean, gimmicks aren't a problem for Mario. 3D Mario has been successfully throwing random ideas at the wall for years now because Nintendo's management actually knows what they're doing.

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I mean, gimmicks aren't a problem for Mario, since 3D Mario has been successfully throwing random ideas at the wall for years now.

Once again: Sonic's problem is that his gimmicks aren't made in mind with the core of his gameplay. If we're making Mario comparisons - and I hate that we are honestly, because it's about as close to a Godwin as it gets around here - it's worth noting that even the worst of most of Mario's gimmicks are still made in mind of the way he moves and plays, and work to augment his base abilities and give new angles to play around with them, not limit them in a ham-fisted attempt to justify it. Even FLUDD, divisive as it is, still ultimately functions as a platforming tool and works as an extension of his Mario 64 kit.

If anyone is "throwing random ideas at a wall", it's Sonic.

EDIT:

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Sonic Lost World isn't a good game, but the idea of Sonic using parkour to navigate his environment goes hand in hand with his running.

Entirely possible this is just personal preference on my part, but I really don't see much point in a specific parkour system because running up and along walls is already a fundemental and expected part of Sonic's movement. I guess one could remove the requirement to throw in a convenient ramp to transfer from ground to wall, but other than that what part of a parkour system isn't already possible with just normal Sonic mechanics?

I mean, Mania did what worked - using a tried and true formula and enhancing it with its own creative spin - and it got great reviews and sold like hotcakes.

If Sega had any business sense whatsoever they'd be contracting Evening Star to make a permanent series of regular 2D Sonic games.

Beats me if we'll ever get another good 3D Sonic game, but the 2D games totally could be amazing forever if Sega would just allow them to be.

Perhaps I phrased it badly. I was saying that more because I'm still impressed at how much gameplay variety Mario manages to pull off. I think we all know it's a matter of execution and putting actual thought into how one's mechanics work, and I guess I don't have much more to add to the discussion than that.

Still, I figure there must be some reason we're still discussing 3D Sonic rather than moving on to better things, like some other series that fulfills his specific speed-platformer niche?

Sonic's entire gimmick is fast paced movement, which is kind of antiethical to the genre that he is.

How much can you actually do when the central premise of the series revolves around a concept that robs control away from the player?

Hell, Sonic with a sword is creative in the sense said weapon increases the range of his spin attacks, and that's a concept they should have went with.

@Dr. Mechano I love Mania, but can you really say it does much more than what Sonic 3 did?

The novelty of having a true successor to that game has worn off, and even if its my second favorite game after Sonic 3, it also falls a bit short in many areas from S3 as well.

Fans: Stop it with the new ideas, we just want Sonic!

Sonic: Stagnates and withers and dies without new ideas breathing life into it

Fans: How could this have happened? No one could've seen this coming!

@BadBehavior

I mean, once again, Mania addressed that too. 3 - and later 5 - playable characters instead of just Sonic.

It's bizarre how this game rarely comes up in the "I wish Sonic's friends were playable again" discourse because it's a stellar example of doing it perfectly.

Because its not much of an evolution of a game that came out over twenty years ago might have something to do with it 

Yeah, but I don't think "evolving" is nearly as important as taking a solid concept and just doing it really well.

If you can throw in some new bells and whistles (and Mania did to be fair), great. But it's more important to be good than "innovative" - if you end up only doing one, at least.

FWIW, Mania is definitely not a shining example of how to use multiple characters. It doesn't do them badly, but it barely ever takes advantage of the different abilities of each character. Only a teeny tiny handful of different routes are accessible for different characters throughout the entire game, and there's very little point in utilising flight, gliding, climbing etc. S3K on the other hand does make playing as Sonic and Knuckles significantly different (Tails is under-utilised, however). Mania doesn't get talked about much in regards to multiple characters because it's pretty ineffective about it and does almost nothing to incentivise using different characters. 

Both are important; even if something is "good", there is such a thing as diminishing returns.  A solid concept can work, but you need something new to keep it fresh, otherwise things are going to stagnate no matter how well put together they are. 

Pokemon has kind of experiencing that a lot in recent years; nobody is going to argue that the games are bad, but one of the biggest criticisms against it is how it doesn't really change much in any meaningful way, especially in comparison to much more contemporary RPG's. 

Now granted, this is Sonic we're talking about where things very often aren't even consistent enough TO stagnate. But at the same time, as much as I love Mania (And please believe me, I DO love it) I once again point out how it falters in many respects compared to Sonic 3, a game that came out over 20 years ago. It couldn't even be bothered to add Amy as a playable character, which is one of the biggest missed opportunities.  And like Blue Blood said, doesn't make playing as any other character particularly interesting at all compared to just using Sonic. 

Its certainly not bad, but it could have been so much better. 

I was gonna let this go, but since I'm still getting notifications:

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Sonic's entire gimmick is fast paced movement, which is kind of antiethical to the genre that he is.

How much can you actually do when the central premise of the series revolves around a concept that robs control away from the player?

Optimization of movement is the end goal of any platformer worth their salt, even in examples that are slower, more methodical or more forgiving, because movement is the entire objective of nearly every platforming game in existence. Being able to get from point A to point B quickly is one of the genre's two biggest measures of skill (the other being no damage runs), and that doesn't really become a competition until you give the player risky ways to make their run faster and require the player to gauge that risk every time it's an option. Sonic isn't even an outlier in this regard - it should tell you a lot that most of the most popular speedrunning games are platforming ones, and rolling or boosting isn't even the most commitment you have to put into one game mechanic out of any of them.

What kind of hot take is this supposed to be exactly? The most popular and critically acclaimed games in the franchise are loved specifically because they can do just this and do it well. The fact that players generally have less control while rolling is practically irrelevant anyway because they DO have control over exactly when they initiate it, and can cancel it by jumping at any time. It's like complaining about having to commit to a jetpack boost in Rocket Knight because you can't change directions afterwards. Christ almighty.

Quote

Fans: Stop it with the new ideas, we just want Sonic!

Sonic: Stagnates and withers and dies without new ideas breathing life into it

Fans: How could this have happened? No one could've seen this coming!

I know this might be a revelation to some of you, but fanbases aren't just gelatinous hive-minded blobs that agree on every single stance they produce - believe it or not, they are in fact made up of a very large number of individual people, and individual people are capable of having opinions that contradict one another's. I'm so sick of this train of thought coming up literally every single fucking time Sonic moves up or down on any conceivable spectrum, especially when said spectrums are almost never at fault anyway and the whole thing can be boiled down to just Sonic Team being bad at what they do.